Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Troy Breeding on January 25, 2012, 12:40:00 PM
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I've searched and read just about everything I can find on foam core limbs. Some say they are the best thing since sliced bread. Others liked them, yet felt and had chrono results that said they shot slower than standard material.
Since I build my own bows I'd like to get a better idea of what to expect should I decide to give this material a try.
I'd also like to hear from the bowyers as to difference in using the material compared to standard material.
Better to check things out than to,,, :banghead:
Troy
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I had a zipper with foam and really liked it! I never shot it through a chrono,but Ive not shot any trad bow through a chrono. Myself if it shots good and hits where I look then it dosn't matter the speed of the bow!
just my 2 cents
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Troy, I find the foam core limbs at same poundage to be faster and much smoother to pull. On my bows and my limb design. The limbs are quite a bit lighter for the same poundage. I have to say that I love them.
God bless you, Steve
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Sixby,
Thats the type info I'm looking for. I wondered how it compared in weight to say Lamboo or any wood core material.
Troy
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Morrison Archery's foam core limbs are very smooth drawing,smooth shooting and very quiet.I really like them on Bobs bows.I believe with just foam they pick up about 5 ft per second over wood or bamboo cores in his design.
I Cant speak to other limb designs as far as how they wil react using foam.
I had another makers foam limb and I preferred his wood and or bamboo limb.He quit using foam as he also thought his bow shot better with bamboo/wood lams.I think a carbon back can help some bows out when using foam.A little crisper feel and they may track better.
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I'll be at K'Zoo this weekend and plan to talk to several about the foam. Most of the bows I built have had good speed and smooth draw. Now that I working with Dr. Ashby on his arrow study I'd like to improve everthing I can in an effert to benefit the study.
Troy
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I have used and still own foam cored limbs. I believe that for hunting distances they are of little value. I do believe that they have their place in target archery however where very long distances are necessary.
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I called Bob Morrison last month to order some limbs w/ bamboo cores for my ILF-- he talked me into foam cores and I should be getting them soon--will be interested to see how they perform. I am always on the lookout not necessarily for speed but for smoothness of draw and a quality I think of as liveliness in a limb.
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I have carbon and foam core limbs in my Zipper ZSR,great performing limbs and quiet also!
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If I remember my conversation with Bob correctly, the foam itself doesn't add speed, it adds consistency. He said his maple core is the same speed as foam. It may also add a feeling of smoothness, which is hard to define, but it's the carbon that gains speed. Side note, my memory has been called fuzzy to non-existent.
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I've looked at this a bit and, though I've slept on it, from what I read the foam is more consistent at rest and when placed under repeated stress and temperature changes, so Bobco is right about its importance to target archery.
For hunting, I believe it is supposed to be a lighter material, which I believe is where a very minor bump in speed might come from. Like Crash said, where I think a lot of the gains are coming from is it's ease of use and combination with carbon, which most think is a better performing limb (at least speed/efficiency wise).
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Only owned one set of foam core limbs -- carbon backed Morrison Shawnees. I couldn't tell any difference in smoothness between them and glass backed bamboo cored limbs. They were each very smooth. Don't have a chrono, but the foam core sure felt faster. With the same D-97 string as bamboo cored limbs, the foam core limbs seemed a little higher pitched/louder. All in all, I'd say the performance differences aren't that great. I'd have no compunction about getting another set of foam cores, though I'd be just as satisfied with bamboo cores.
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Crash--That's because you're trying to remember too many bows!
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personally, having owned and used more than a few foam and ceramic limbed recurves (with and without carbon), none of that is required or needed for a hunting stick bow. gimme a well designed limb set with boo or cane cores under good glass, and i'm good to go. ymmv.
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I was told the other day by a very reputable bowyer that I would be hard pressed to notice any performance difference between the walnut cores I chose and a foam core.
here's what he said....
"The more foam cores i do for guys, the better i like the stuff personally. it does add an uncanny smoothness to the draw giving the feel of less draw weight. It's ultra light physical properties add performance too.
Performance wise comparing it to walnut cores, i think you'd be hard pressed to see a difference. The unique thing about foam is that the properties do not change with humidity and temperature changes like wood does. a wood core bow is always going to perform better in the summer than it does in the winter. Bamboo is the least noticeable due to it being grass and not wood.
Typically i use the foam with carbon bows, but I've recently used foam cores under glass too with great sucsess..... It's homogenous properties are just really hard to beat. the best lay up using foam has been using a very thin layer of uni-weft material between the foam tapers dead center. this is a woven fiberglass material.
The foam cores are $100 upgrade using uni-weft, and $80 for a thin wood core between the foam tapers.
Some guys absolutely swear by the foam cores, and i'm begining to see the advantages more and more myself."
He also spoke of a new stack technique he's trying out but I'm not sure if he wanted that cat out of the bag.
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Much theory, rationalization and likely data out there to support advantages.
Bottom line: If one cannot actually discern the advantages, then it is money better saved. If one does readily discern the advantage, then by all means go for it.
The experience is individualistic!
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I've shot my Shawnees side by side, one with foam core and glass and one with bamboo and glass. Can't place my finger on the difference, but a "livelier" limb is as good as any. Crisper at the shot, smoother on the draw, less vibration and hand shock at the shot. I like them a lot, carbon/foam is even better then the glass/foam.
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I can't prove foam is better in any way. However, other than a few early reactions, I can't find any legitimate negative comments about foam and it's been in use long enough to generate plenty - if there were going to be any.
With that said, I've had a few bows with foam cored limbs, both glass and carbon backed. And from my perspective foam was quieter and smoother - but not by a great measure. I don't chrono so can't comment with any accuracy on speed, but they were fast. I'm sure some limbs/designs stand to benefit more than others from whatever "advantages" foam may have. And I suspect some designs may be more agreeable to foam than others, hence any negative experiences may have been more of a learning curve than a fault of the material itself.
I also suspect bowyers have taken a liking to it because of its more consistent nature. Which makes hitting weight easier and reduces time tillering. I'm not a bowyer, that's just a thought I had.
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Originally posted by Jedimaster:
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I also suspect bowyers have taken a liking to it because of its more consistent nature. Which makes hitting weight easier and reduces time tillering. I'm not a bowyer, that's just a thought I had.
I'm sure you're right on there.
I've heard the same comments..from bowyers..about a-boo....just more consistent/easier for the bowyer to work with..
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I have been wondering if foam makes a bigger difference in shorter bows? I shoot 68 inch RD longbows and can't imagine them being any smoother. I am looking for a bow that will cast a heavier arrow at the same speed as my present bows. If I go up 5 lbs in weight and use the right bow with carbon and foam It seems I can meet this goal. It sounds like I need to start researching a new bow to take hunting in Africa and Australia.
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I have 2 bows that are the same draw wt.and very similiar in design. 1 foam/carbon, the other all wood. With light arrows, the foam/carbon is a wee faster, but with heavy arrows they shoot the same thru a chrony. Same string on both.
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Heavy arrows are all I shoot. I like the idea of smoother draw, but if there isn't alot of difference in cast over boo it may not benifit me.
I've been told that preping the material is different to wood or boo.
Troy
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Carbon/foam limbs are touted for 3 things: speed; smoothness of draw; and consistency of performance, regardless of humidity, temperature, etc.
Are they faster? Yes. But you probably won't tell the difference without a chronograph, all things being equal.
Smoother? I have a set of premium carbon/foam limbs (i.e. Trad Tech BF Extremes)that are among the very best available. I haven't been able to feel much difference in smoothness when comparing them to bamboo core and wood lams.
Do carbon/foam make a difference when it comes to temperature, humidity, etc.? Compared to wood, how can they not be more stable and consistent?
All that said, many archers will shoot their wood limbs just as comfortably and effectively as they would carbon/foam.
Mark
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I do not own foam core limbs but I have shot a few that had them. They are smooth and fast, that is for sure. If the foam cored limbs mass weight is less, it would stand to reason that they should be easier to tune. I think the main reason carbon is used is to give the limb lateral stability. I don't build bows but I could see the draw of using it in limbs. The more consistant the results, the better when building them. Natural limb materials tend to have their own qualitys. Foam is...well, foam. Only question I have with foam core limbs is durability. How do they stand up over time? Does the foam break down over time? I know they have used foam/carbon limbs for a long time in target shooting circles for a reason.
JL
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As arthritis has forced me to drop weight, the increased "performance" giving me heavier draw weight RESULTS with lighter draw weight, are seductive.
Having said that, reports suggest that all foam core and carbon do not end delivering the same output.
From some reading and reports, there is a lot of variance in materials that one can choose from out there in foam core and carbon and how they're used can nulify performance quickly if not done to the specifics of this "new age" material combo! FWIW.
Still seems to be a perceived improvement. I stumbled on a used set of Morrison longbow limbs for the Cheyenne in carbon/fCore and they do seem to perform better than higher draw weight bamboo core/glass ... based on arrow flight performance...
My shoulders enjoy it though...
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i had a phone conversation with earl hoyt just before he passed on, and his thoughts about carbon/foam limb cores were that they were more environmentally consistent than glass/wood, which was perfect for the fita crowd with their longer curved sticks, but far less an advantage with hunters and their shorter sticks. after listening to him, and trying out lotsa carbon/glass/foam limbs, i agree. which is why i'll eschew the added expense of carbon/foam limbs for my hunters. besides, who am i kidding? almost all bows are gonna be better than me for consistency, and it's still the arrow that always matters most. :D
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I have some foam core/carbon backed Morrison Shawnees and ILF longbows and I really like them.
Smooth, fast and quiet.
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Stop by the Zipper booth this weekend in Kalzoo, talk to Bill about the carbon/foam limbs, he's a real nice guy. And builds great bows.
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UPDATE
My Morrison ILF limbs arrived last week. They are foam core/glass. They are smooth, light and quick. They have a marginally snappier cast than bamboo cores. I find them somewhat noisier at the shot, though not as noisy as the foam/carbon limbs on my Shawnee. I like the aesthetic of bamboo a lot better than foam--it's a natural substance--and the quieter shot. I think I will enjoy these foam-cored limbs, and the little extra performance they give my 44# bow, but will probably opt for bamboo cores in the future.
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Originally posted by Sixby:
Troy, I find the foam core limbs at same poundage to be faster and much smoother to pull. On my bows and my limb design. The limbs are quite a bit lighter for the same poundage. I have to say that I love them.
God bless you, Steve
I don't build bows but go through alot of them :D and would have to agree with Steve on this. I 100% mirror his thoughts.
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I like the foam/carbon Morrison limbs so much better than the boo cores. To the point I do not own any boo cores any more, all of my bows are foam/carbon. Hunted them from -20 to +115 with no issues at all. The heavy limbs (70# +)shoot much nicer than boo cores. The added bonus of not worrying about moisture in the wood is a big plus for me when hunting humid environments.
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I shot some fiberglass foam cores from Bob Morrison recently.......I was impressed.
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Personally, I like bamboo, red elm, Yew, Osage and veneers under clear glass. I like the feel, and beauty of wood. I also like Yew and Osage in self-bows. Obviously, you can't get that from foam.
The advantage to a bowyer is the consistent characteristics from one piece to the next.
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I just got a set of Sebastian Flutes Carbon Foam ILF limbs and they are quieter than my Carbon Wood Black Max limbs. I would also say they are quieter than a few of my more traditional recurve bows shooting the same arrow weight. As far as smoothness I say they are smooth and I do like the feel. I got these on a close out sale so I am very happy with them.
Bill
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Personally, If I have a choice, Foam cores are all I ever shoot.Love the look of wood, but foam is weather resistant, quiet and smooth. Still working on a wood veneer that will work on carbon or fiberglass.
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some good info here , much to mull over. Thanks
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Bill, I can't send PM's call or e-mail me when you get time.
Bob
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Bob, I have worked on that myself. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. perhaps a couple of coats of epoxy over the veneers before you pull it. I have not tried that yet. I thought tigerwood would work but it cracked right off. Cox uses cocabola. I have not tried it yet. If that works then Osage should also.
God bless and good luck, Steve
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Don't want to hijack the thread but if the wood in a bow is sealed in a way that it won't absorb moisture, why would hummidity affect it?
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Originally posted by JamesKerr:
Don't want to hijack the thread but if the wood in a bow is sealed in a way that it won't absorb moisture, why would hummidity affect it?
There isn't a sealer made that will keep wood from reacting to humidity and temperature levels changing. You can take that to the bank.
Troy,
The foam is homogeneous, light weight, and not effected by temperature or humidity levels changing. it's an excellent product to work with from a bowyer's stand point because of it's consistency..... sand it smooth, and prep with accetone. just dusting it off doesn't do the trick.
The down side of it is it's very fragile until you get it laid up in the limb. We are talking about little tiny glass spheres here. if you drop a lam on it's end it typically shatters or breaks easily. it's also expensive material.
But....once you get it laid up in a limb it's down right impressive stuff. The compression properties are much higher than bamboo and it's half the physical weight.... do the math bro.
To some folks it's worth every penny spent. others swear by bamboo cores. i like em both myself. glass / bamboo, and carbon/foam both have great reviews for a very good reason. i haven't tried the glass/ foam combo yet, but hear they are a bit quicker than bamboo. kirk
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Kirk,
I had heard foam was quite a bit lighter in weight which will make it faster in recovery.
Alot of people talk about increasing speed for flatter trijectory. Until they shoot arrows in the weight I use they really have no idea what increasing speed can do for them.
My normal hunting weight bow is around 60#. When your shooting 800-900gr arrows with high FOC every FPS I can increase my arrow helps me more than the person shooting normal weight arrows.
Thanks for the input.
Troy
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I have a Morrison Cheyenne and a Zipper SXT with foam core limbs. I have had two other sets of wood limbs (boo and maple) for the Cheyenne and the foam cores are a no brainer for me. If a bowyer offers them that's my choice every time.
Going between wood cores and foam cores on the same bow is the true test of the limb material and on the Morrison they are much smoother, some faster with less recoil. Of course design makes a difference as well but if I were your and had your talents I would definitely give them a try.
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Hi Troy- I had a set of the most popular (and expensive) foam core limbs. I shot them thru the chrono as I do most of my bows. I found very little difference in performance. They were smooth but nothing special. Most will say they are quieter than other limbs, but I thought mine were not as quiet as other limbs. So, my opinion was they were ok, but I was disappointed in them. I know they have some new "nano" foam and carbon materials now that they say make a more stable limb, so I would consider trying those.
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I sent a message to Gregg Coffey about getting the foam, carbon and mystery core on the Shrew I have on order. He said that if I shot lighter arrows, I would see an improvement in speed, but that if I shot arrows in the 11 to 12 gpp range, it wouldn't be much of an improvement in the speed department. I am undecided as I do shoot very heavy arrows and don't know if it's worth the extra money over the bamboo.
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Bamboo was my fav core material till I tried a pair of foam core limbs
I am very pleased with the carbon and foam core limbs and that would be my first choice
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Originally posted by Troy Breeding:
Kirk,
I had heard foam was quite a bit lighter in weight which will make it faster in recovery.
Alot of people talk about increasing speed for flatter trijectory. Until they shoot arrows in the weight I use they really have no idea what increasing speed can do for them.
My normal hunting weight bow is around 60#. When your shooting 800-900gr arrows with high FOC every FPS I can increase my arrow helps me more than the person shooting normal weight arrows.
Thanks for the input.
Troy
Foam is a higher performance material. High performance means more than just having faster arrows and flatter trajectory too.
With less mass weight in the limb there is less weight in the limb tips. These limb tips need to stop dead at the end of the power stroke to transfer the stored energy into the arrow shaft.
When you can accomplish this, you not only get a faster arrow, you get less vibration.
Can this be accomplished with fiberglass backing with bamboo or maple cores?..... Absolutely. Can it be accomplished by self bowyer's using Osage? You bet it can.
But the higher performance materials we are using today allows us to push performance to a different level. It may seem like we are just splitting hairs to some folks, but advancements are made one step at a time, and all those hairs we are splitting pile up faster than you think.
If better over all performance means a guy with a shoulder injury can get a lower poundage bow that is smooth as silk that is hitting just as hard, and shooting just as flat as a bow 5 pounds heavier..... That makes all this hair splitting worth while to me. Kirk
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Kirk have you tested your bows for speed increases between the carbon foam and standard cores? Tricia and I are looking at trips to Africa and Oz in the next few years. I want to sit down and talk about some bows that will shoot heavier arrows at the same speed we are getting now.
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For some reason folks think a limb with less mass in the outer limb does not cast a heavy arrow as well as it does light weight shafts..... it's just not true.
Now you can definitely get higher efficiency ratings out of the bow using heavier shafts with more mass in the outer limbs, but it's the arrow shafts efficiency that matters, not the bows efficiency.
Example: take a 50 pound HH bow or an English long bow with deep core straight unbraced profile.
using 9 gpp at a 6" brace height the guy standing next to you while you are shooting will feel that limb shock. you can literally watch the limbs oscillate. the best speed you are going to see is mid 170's to low 180's at 9gpp.
Now take that same bow at 70-80 pounds or higher in draw weight and you'll have a whole different bow. This is because the string tension at brace is high enough to stop the mass in the limbs cleaner and transfer the stored energy to the shaft.
A high performance bow with good r/d stores WAY more energy that a straight long bow does. a 50 pound bow shooting 9 grains per pound at 200 FPS should have no problem shooting 12 grains per pound in the upper 180's to low 190's.
10 to 11 GPP is the optimum hunting weight arrow IMO. If you've got a decent design going for you you can get the same results out of a 60 pound R/D long bow as you do a 65-70 pound straight long bow using the same arrows with fiberglass and bamboo cores. You start using carbon and foam the spread gets wider and the performance gets even higher.
yes i do have tests and high speed video that back up my opinions. guys that say that speed doesn't matter are just not looking at the whole picture. high performance means more power with less draw weight. Kirk
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I know I can hunt elk with a 50 , 55 lb bow now and feel just as confident as I did a couple of years ago with a 65 70 lb bow. Much of this is due to the lightness and strength of the materials being used. You use much less energy moving the limbs and you are transferring that energy into moving the mass of the arrow. Some of this is due to strength but I suspect that the larger part is simply weight of materials. A pair of carbon foam core limbs are like feathers compared to glass wood core limbs.
God bless you all, Steve
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I have a foam core pronghorn and have compared it to similar bows of comparable weight. There is most certinaly a differance in the way the foam draws and shoots. Very smooth and quite fast.
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Kirk,
I'm glad to hear you say all those things. I've been mulling this over since the foam core material really took off. I understand all the stuff about different efficiency in different style bows. Dr Ashby pointed that out in some of his test. He found that his 67# ACS would shoot the same arrow the same speed as his 84# Hill.
Makes more since to use the lighter bow.
Troy
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Kirk do you think there is much dif in the eff of a recurve or RD long bow when shooting heavy arrows say over 800grns will one pack more punch all things being the same .Thanks Shane
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Ozzy,
It all boils down to the stored energy in the limbs and how much of that energy is actually transferred to the shaft. typically a well designed r/d long bow that stores good energy will transfer more of that energy to the shaft than a recurve bow does. if it's timed well, and has enough preload to stop the string dead you got a winner. Keep in mind.... all r/d long bows are not created equal.
The recurve bow stores more energy in a shorter section of working limb. especially a static recurve or semi static tip. You would think the recurve would be more efficient and have a better cast, and in some cases they do.... But typically a well built r/d long bow in the 50 pound range will out perform a recurve bow of same weight.
The RC limb because of the extra width it needs to stabilize the limb laterally, you end up with a much thinner limb, and vertical stability and limb bulge comes into play on some designs.
The issues that you run into on the RC limbs with lost performance is the parachute effect for one. those wider limbs have a lot more wind resistance as they come forward than a narrow limb does.
The second issue is a recurve limb typically has more mass weight in the tips moving forward than a deep core long bow limb....If you try and use a faster taper rate and thin the limbs down too much, you end up with limb bulge issues that siphon the stored energy instead of transferring it to the arrow shaft. The limb tips are stopping but the working limb oscillates.
This is what is so exciting about using these newer carbon composites and foam. It's making unbelievable advancements possible. We are not only shaving a lot of mass weight in the limbs, but are now able to narrow our limbs up considerably with these carbon composites. We are also eliminating stability issues that are commonly an issue using glass and wood.
These new Static tip RC bows with carbon composites are closing the gap on the hot rod long bows.
Sorry for the getting long winded here guys... but for a bowyer, this is good stuff we are talking here. :thumbsup:
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kirkll, you talk about the foam being fragile until laid up. Once used in a finished limb how does the foam hold up to a direct blow? Say you fell and hit your bow on a hard object? I know any limb can fail in this situation, but has it been your experience that they are less durable than wood cores if this were to happen. Thanks...Mike
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Not kirkll but I would like to try to answer that. I believe that the sandwich between the glass would protect and make the foam much more stable and a lot less prone to breakage.
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Originally posted by Kirkll:
Example: take a 50 pound HH bow or an English long bow with deep core straight unbraced profile.
using 9 gpp at a 6" brace height the guy standing next to you while you are shooting will feel that limb shock. you can literally watch the limbs oscillate. the best speed you are going to see is mid 170's to low 180's at 9gpp.
Now take that same bow at 70-80 pounds or higher in draw weight and you'll have a whole different bow. This is because the string tension at brace is high enough to stop the mass in the limbs cleaner and transfer the stored energy to the shaft.
Does this mean that ALL Hill style or American Longbows(or ELB) are created equal?
I have shot a few bows that caused pain. But when you shoot one that is made proper,the shot is smooth,sweet and quiet. No jarring.
I don't know why the ALB/ELB has to always get a bad rap or worse yet a bad stereotype. I just do not think its true.
I have a 57@30 Straight limb bow with about a 1/2" of backset that will send the arrow off with no worries what so ever. Is it the most efficient? Don't know. but I do know it is quiet and soft and will send that 500-525gn arrow nearly 300yds down range and it will bury the same shaft in the target or the critter.
Not,arguing with you Kirk you have valid points for sure. I think the waters are to quickly muddied when we try to compare too many fruits at one time. The fable about staright bows is a burr under my saddle pad,thats all. If it is true though, Are all the MANY hill bow shooters really that tuff,numb or ????
Just my morning thoughts
CTT
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I am not a bowyer but have liked the carbon foam limbs I have shot; shrew, border, winex, flutes. Since the material has been out for a while now and limbs from oly shooters have many cycles thru them if there was a durability problem you think it would have showed up.
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Also, must be exciting times for bowyers getting to try different limbs designs due to the advancement in materials available allowing them to do things they could not before.
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I will let you know my opinion on foam cores in 3-4 months. ;)
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Not an expert.
I have shot a couple foam core long bows with carbon matrix and I didn't like them for the same reason I don't like carbon fly rods. There is something very "quick" about how both behave and I simply prefer the slightly slower feel of standard glass with standard materials in the core (or a bamboo fly rod).
Anyway, this bias in no way relects on performance of foam. For me it was just a feel thing. I don't know if its the foam or the carbon or the combo, but I didn't like shooting them as much. Try some out. You may like them.
Joshua
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Jashua....at this point, from what little I've shot foam core....I like the glass n foam over the carbon n foam.
Again, what I have shot if very limited.
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Two tracks, i meant no offense regarding HH style or ELB bows at all. it's not a bad rap that those bows have. it's a lot of mass weight in their limbs moving forward, without enough string tension at brace to stop the limb clean. you just have to use heavier shafts with those things. it's the light weight shafts that really gives you a pronounced vibration, and it's much more noticable on light poundage bows than heavier ones.
Hey Terry, what was the difference you noticed between glass/foam and carbon/foam limbs?
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Originally posted by Bowbldr:
Personally, If I have a choice, Foam cores are all I ever shoot.Love the look of wood, but foam is weather resistant, quiet and smooth. Still working on a wood veneer that will work on carbon or fiberglass.
Hi Bob
What did you mean by "Still working on a wood veneer that will work on carbon or fiberglass" Where would you use this wood veneer.
I ordered just recently a TD Sasquatch with triple carbon & thin bocote veneers under thin clear glass.Is this what you mean
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After shooting foam cores for several years now it is my first choice when buying a bow. Curt from Hunter Bows just started using it and loves it. My new bow coming from him has it in it. The biggest thing I notice is how quiet they are on release. No string silencers needed.
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I really like my foam core glass limbed Pronghorn. I have a little 58" and it is super smooth, quiet, and pretty darn quick.
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Compared to other more qualified people who have answered, I understand the technical merits of Carbon and Foam, but I don't like the way they sound when shot and I have found Carbon limbs to feel stiff.
Kirk and Sixby I would love to see the drag race between a Bigfoot r/d longbow with C/F limbs vs an EagleWing Talon recurve with C/F limbs......come on I know you guys love to race....
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Kirk and Sixby I would love to see the drag race between a Bigfoot r/d longbow with C/F limbs vs an EagleWing Talon recurve with C/F limbs......come on I know you guys love to race.... [/QB]
We've been racing neck and neck for years already.... After just receiving one of Steve's latest C/F recurve's and running it through the chrono.... I'm quite certain it would be a photo finish. :thumbsup: .....
But.... Nobody would believe the numbers anyway... or they'd question how the testing was done. So it ain't going to happen any time soon for public viewing.
My hat's off to you brutha Steve. Always will be too.
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Kirk
Would you say that by using C/F in a limb, you are making a "stronger" limb and would that mean that you could possibly get more aggressive on the riser/limb angles ?
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Kirk and I are more about collaboration than competition. For instance if my EagleWing outshot a Sasquatch I would share with him why. Vice Versa. As he said. No one would believe it unless they have the bow to shoot themselves. Those that do are believers and those that don't buy other bows. LOl. God is good and supplys every need for every one that trusts him. Thats where I come from. In fact as long as I just have a bow or two to build I'm happy. I would rather Kirk had to stay up late at night and work than me (Grin)
One other thing. If you are already pushing the envelope with a design in your glass limbs you actually have to back off when you go to carbon and foam core. I am relatively sure that I can come close to same speed with glass foam as I can with carbon foam because glass will take a much tighter bend than the carbon will without breaking. I am just about to the conclusion that a complete combination.
Carbon back, foam core glass belly is the way to go. especially when you add a composit carbon in the center of the stack for added stability. This is in regards to the recurve.
D and R longbows, that is a completely different thing because you have a longer working limb. Even then you have to go super light with the carbon on the belly or put it under glass to get it to hold together. Carbon just does not compress. Not at all.
These are my thoughts on it and some may choose to disagree. Thats cool.
God bless you all, Steve
God bless you all, Steve
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Steve
Wasn't trying to start a war between you two but I was curious to Kirk statement about r/d longbows having better performance than a recurve. First time I heard of that and to be fair his reasoning made sense. But being that I have dabbled with both, from my primitive methods ( I shoot lot's of arrows) I have never come across that. I've shot quite a few R/D's, not all mind you and none have what I would say convinced me of such. But then again I have not shot a Saquatch and I hope I do someday.
In the end it's all good fun, speed is only one aspect of a bow's performance anyway.
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Originally posted by LongStick64:
Kirk
Would you say that by using C/F in a limb, you are making a "stronger" limb and would that mean that you could possibly get more aggressive on the riser/limb angles ?
Absolutely brutha... it's actually so strong it doesn't work on some limb designs at all because it's too strong. :eek:
There are many different combinations that hold up well and give you excellent performance. but once you cross the line you know it right now.
There are many different types of carbon, and many different ways to use it in a limb to gain stability and more horse power. Getting the right combo going is the trick. I think Matrix is a fitting name.
What was the name Dryad came up with for theirs? Was it "Crazy John's" carbon? that's a very fitting name too actually, because getting the right combo will definately make you crazy.
kirk
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carbon or glass? for bows, and with my limited experiences, i like glass. i also love glass in my surfcasting rods - they have a parabolic bend when heaving big baits and heavy lures out a hundred yards or more, whereas a carbon/graphite rod of the same performance specs is just at the borderline of snapping - and i've snapped a few. as to my arrows, make 'em CARBON, not glass. :D
however, i'll add - if i was physically forced to shoot near 10# less holding weight than now, i'd not wanna hafta give up a .357 magnum for a .38 special, so sign me up for a set of them fancy hi-tech, rocket launcher, carbon/foam limbs ... pronto!
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Somehow Rob I just don't see you shooting a reverse mounted three piece D and R longbow. carbon or no carbon (Grin)
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Stev Kirk
what type of bow design does the foam/carbon work best with your guys bows ??
Do you guys see much dif when used in diff design with real heavy arrows say over 800grn with 65lb bows is there a certain type of design that works best with big heavy arrows as from what i know the foam/carbon were made for light arrows in ILF bows Thanks Shane
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A bow limb has to be designed for carbon, Then it has to be carefully and thoroughly tested. Foam core can be used as a core material in most bow designs and be effective due to its consistancy and light weight.
A less efficient bow will never outperform a more efficient bow at any arrow weight. As the arrows get heavier the gap in speed will tighten up the heavier the arrows get but the less efficient bow will always be the less efficient bow.
Bows do not gain in efficiency by shooting a heavier arrow. They apply more of the efficiency that they do have to the arrow. In effect the arrow becomes more efficient as it is absorbing more of the bows efficiency.
At the same time that heavier arrow is also absorbing more of the efficiency of the more efficient bow. Guess which bow is always more efficient and faster?
God bless, Steve
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I can see how foam core gives a bowyer consistant performance and feel in shooting a bow over traditional cores but I do have reservations about HOW MUCH difference some claim.
I rember way back when.When bamboo cores became the RAGE in traditional bows.I also remember you could get different results in performance from one set of limbs to another that where built to the same specs.This difference IMO is what foam cores help emliminate.
I'm not a bowyer,but it seems to me.If one was to take the time and pre-test and select core materails that have good consistancies along w/ a very good limb design,you can acheive very good results.
For me.I don't like the looks of that gray line in my limbs.If they would make in black.I would be just fine w/ it.
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Originally posted by overbo:
I can see how foam core gives a bowyer consistant performance and feel in shooting a bow over traditional cores but I do have reservations about HOW MUCH difference some claim.
I rember way back when.When bamboo cores became the RAGE in traditional bows.I also remember you could get different results in performance from one set of limbs to another that where built to the same specs.This difference IMO is what foam cores help emliminate.
I'm not a bowyer,but it seems to me.If one was to take the time and pre-test and select core materails that have good consistancies along w/ a very good limb design,you can acheive very good results.
For me.I don't like the looks of that gray line in my limbs.If they would make in black.I would be just fine w/ it.
All true and especially true with actionwood or action boo .However there is one other thing. The foam core is impervious to cold and heat and to moisture where wood and boo are not.
As to the color. Not a lot you can do about that unless you use a black sharpie.
God bless , Steve
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Maybe Sixby but you can't build a decent bow limb out of foam alone.I also feel that the finish on and how well it's applied has more to do w/ making a bow weatherproof than putting foam in the core. .
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Originally posted by overbo:
Maybe Sixby but you can't build a decent bow limb out of foam alone.I also feel that the finish on and how well it's applied has more to do w/ making a bow weatherproof than putting foam in the core. .
I hate to disagree with this statement, but brutha, you are dead wrong on that one. there isn't a sealer made that will keep wood from being effected by humidity and temperature change. Wood moves a lot. Foam doesn't expand and contract at all.
bamboo is a great compromise because of it's homogenous nature. it also does much better in climate changes than many wood species does. i wish the stuff was better under compression so you could snuggle some belly carbon up to it without building a bomb. With glass it's not an issue.
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Originally posted by overbo:
Maybe Sixby but you can't build a decent bow limb out of foam alone.I also feel that the finish on and how well it's applied has more to do w/ making a bow weatherproof than putting foam in the core. .
I don't understand the point. finish may have something to do with weatherproofing for moisture but nothing to do with heat or cold. I still do the same high quality finish on my bows with foam that I do with wood cores.
I completely miss the meaning that you cannot build a bow with foam alone. I don't believe anyone said anything about building a bow with foam alone. At least I cannot find that so what do you mean?
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I don't know the first thing about building a bow...but nevertheless, this has been an exceedingly interesting thread!
I'm all for increased performance and smoothness of draw, but the weather resistance factor is especially interesting.
Thanks guys!
Joe D
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This is another feather in the hat of Trad Gang, if you ask me. Being able to have a discussion about bows and having bowyers taking part. Just another check on a long list of why I stop by here every day. :readit:
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To build any limb,one must laminate materails together.To say carbon/glass and epoxies aren't effect by tempatures seems incorrect.I understand foam as a insulater but not the other materails used to build a bow limb.
Odviously the amount of movement in wood isn't enough that one couldn't build bow limbs w/ wood.I'm referring to not allowing water into the limb w/ a sealer.Yes not all sealers are the same.I've had bows from dry climates blow up and delam by stringing or just drawing them.Both bows the finish was very poorly done and there where seperation gaps in the limb lams.The liklyhood that foam cores would've made more of a difference than a better job at sealing the bow w/ a good finish,dosen't add up.
As for the finish it's self.I've had bows that the finish peeled off when sprayed w/ bug spray.I have a bow that the finish isn't affected by bug spay at all?
I feel there are other variables that contribute to the durability of a bow and foam cores dosen't resolves those durability and weatherproofing issuses.I do understand how it helps the issue.
Kirk,
Aren't bowyers using carbon and boo on the belly of limbs now?
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Overbo....
Nobody said foam was a cure all.
I'm sorry you've had bows blow up on you.
poorly built and or sealed bows will have a tendency to do that...and it stinks when it happens
Nobody said that a bow made with foam cores didn't need a good seal coat.
Nobody said foam cored bows were bomb proof.
I'm sorry..but you seem to have some sort of vendetta against foam cores and/or possibly the bowyers on this thread writing about them.
Have you had bad experiences with foam cores or one of the bowyers?
I'm curious as I have an order with one of them and I'm considering a bow from the other in the future....possibly with foam cores.
Otherwise, I just don't really see your point in this post.
It seems as if you're putting words into the bowyers' mouth just to have something to rant about.
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Originally posted by Kirkll:
. [/qb]
i wish the stuff was better under compression so you could snuggle some belly carbon up to it without building a bomb. With glass it's not an issue. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Kirk, could you elaborate on this a bit. I'm curious to what happens here. Thanks.
Mike
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:pray: