Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Biggie Hoffman on January 31, 2012, 08:21:00 AM
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Traditional values, to me anyway, means more then just the way we choose to hunt. It's a higher moral committment as well in everything we do. ie; a man's word is his bond etc.
I've listed several things on the classifieds over the years and have had no problems up until the last month or so. Two different times I've had guys say "I'LL TAKE IT" So, you post it as sold and box it up, ready to ship. The 1st sign is, "I'm out of town and will pay for them MOnday when I get back" Red flag! He still hasn't paid.
One guy finally said he couldn't afford them. OK, so WHY did he say he'd take them to begin with? Sad story? Car broke down? Wife said no way? C'mon guys! If you say you want something, follow through. YOUR WORD IS YOUR BOND!
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Amen! :deadhorse:
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Amen Biggie! I think some guys hit the trigger and say they'll take it before discussing it with the boss (wife).
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Yep, sometimes when you let your mouth overload...you just gotta eat cream of nothing soup for a while, and pay up.
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Those are the ones you need to report to the mods,you may not be the first that they did it to. They may be hoping for a more gullible person who would trust them and ship on trust.
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Obsessive Compulsive (purchase) Disorder does seem to often be a part of trad archery, when it comes to buying stuff and wanting stuff. There was a time when I had thirty bows, two of everything kind of the Noah's ark of bows. That is OCD. Right now I just know I gotta get a new bow, don't have a clue why, I just gotta.
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Couldn't agree more!!!!!
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Biggie, I have had the same action out of a guy who told me I'll take it then didn't answer my pms. When I advertise something anymore and he responds I don't consider him a legitiment buyer and wait til my item sells then contact him to say it's sold. I haven't had any problems from others although some may wait til payday to pay.
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It does chap ones behind to get stiffed by someone who has no honor.
I had a guy from Birmingham order a bow from me. The first bow I made broke just about the time I finished it, the next came in under poundage, the third was as perfect as an osage bow could be.
I had a month into the project, operate on a handshake and don't take deposits when I emailed him to tell him his bow was ready, no response.
More emails, no response, phone calls, no response. He finally picked up the phone and told me "a bunch of stuff came up, I am no longer interested in a bow". Boy, did I see RED, first and only time I have been stiffed by a customer.
Being a nice guy I let him off the hook, with steam rolling out my ears of course. To this day I can get mad about his total lack of honor and commitment, probably not a 100% trad guy and definitely didn't have the personal values I see in every other trad shooter I meet.
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Eric, I think a lot of us have had that type of experience. I work the same way; when its done I contact the person who ordered it. I send it. If it meets his expectations, he pays me. I've had very few returns. Don't change the way you operate. Remember that 99.9% of us do rely on a handshake, physical or verbal. Like the rotten apple you find once in a while, you throw it away and enjoy the others. I always figure if I get stiffed on an order, I can probably sell the item for nearly as much, or possibly more, to someone else.
This "stiffee", however, remembers the "stiffer"'s name a long, long time.
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Well said Biggie!!!
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My check is in the mail-honest!! :bigsmyl:
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I'm just a consumer. I've bought, traded, and sold a few curves here. So far my experiences have been top-notch!
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Sorry to hear that. Bad deals or lack of integrity, dishonesty call it what you want is a big reason why I won't visit AT again. I had never sold on the net before and when I did only 1/2 the deals actually went through. I found this site and have already had only great dealings. I do believe trad guys on average do have higher values.
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Well said, Biggie. A sign of the times, I think. More dishonest or at least disingenuous folks around now. We tend to let our guard down on this site, but they're everywhere. :dunno:
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Bowwild, I have had excellent overall luck buying and selling. I bought a Morrison TD when I first arrived on tradgang from a guy in Wyoming. The day after I sent the MO to him the bow arrived. He had sent it on my word, a $500 bow! I knew then that tradgang had a very high,honorable standard and I said to myself "My kind of people". I could not have been that trusting dealing with people I didn't know. When a membership grows to the size that tradgang has there will always be some glitches, but as long as a man is upfront and honest there won't be problems.
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I hate to say but that is the way it goes. I think that is just buisness as normal for these times. I think guys get excited and they want it but they are not at the store where it gets in there hands and the cash is in yours. If they have buyers remorse its to late then. but for the most part they have 8 to 12 hours to think about it and they change there mind. It bothered me at first when it happened to me. But now I just dont even give it a second thought. I usally see the customer later on buy the product so I just dont make it personal.
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I have had that happen as well and it is not much fun. But until I am standing in the other persons shoes in their circumstances, I will not judge.
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I have to say that the Trad Values is what keeps me here. More great people on this site than the few that are here that do not follow through. Things do come up, we all understand that. None of us are perfect. Communication is the best thing for all though, make sure all involved know whats going on. I do stand by my word, its the only thing we really have in the end!!!
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I have sold two bows on Trad Gang. When each person said they wanted the bow, I went back to my classified ad to edit it. The edit in the title didn't say, "Sold". I put, "Sale Pending". If things went wrong (and they didn't), I'm covered and this also lets other people know who are watching the ad what's happening with the transaction.
Once the sale is complete, I again go back to my classified ad, re-edit the title (again) by putting "Sold" in the title so people following the ad now know the bow is no longer available.
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I have been very fortunate to have dealt with nothing but top notch folks on this site. :thumbsup:
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As the site grows we are going to have police it more and more. The biggest complaint on the classifieds is lack of communication. Emails, PM's, text messaging, cell phones. Come on folks just keep in touch until both parties side of the deal is complete.
On the positive side, I can't tell you how many fantastic friends I have made through buying and selling! :thumbsup:
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You have to look at the whole picture. I do not think that traditional values have to do with anything on how and what we buy. I had to cancel an order off of another site because on January 3rd my company notified me that I was being downsized along with 30 other people. According to the logic on this post I do not have traditional values because I did not pay for a product that I initially said that I wanted. I had no reason to believe that my company would be downsizing but I felt that the 400 I was going to spend could be better utilized on my family.
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Yeah Biggie...and THANKS for posting....some folks make honest mistakes...gonna happen and understandable, but some folks are just reckless.
Heck, we can't even get folks to follow the rules on this site, and then they grip about it when we pull there posts. Not just this forum, but the Shooters forum as well,....you wouldn't believe the hoops we've jumped through to keep that a TRAINING/COACHING forum for Bowhunters. We've tried all sorts of tricks, but so many never even read the guidelines, or they think they are above the rules one.
Same with the Product Review forum, folks asking questions there instead of here, and the guidlines are plain as the nose on you face.
I can say one thing though....its still the most friendly site a bowhunter can go to, ....especially for the size of its membership. Most folks would be shocked at what we go though and put up with just to keep the streets clean here. Its a full time job in itself.
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I have seen both sides of this problem and try to with hold judgement until I know the truth of the situation. I gave a guy on here, about 18 months ago,a bow for a kid that he promised to pass on when the boy was done with it. I saw that bow and arrows for sale on another site no more than 2 months later. I emailed this a$$hole and asked him to honor his committment and was told tuff sh** for you. On the other hand I know some one that shot my bow and loved it. He decided to order one. Six weeks later he was having health related issues and was distraught because of his commitment to the bowyer. I knew the bowyer well and interceded on the friends behalf, not only did the bowyer forgive the deal he also offered to pay to have it shipped back to him. I paid the shipping and my friend recieved his deposit back about 2wks. later in a get well card. I would never offer to post or to chide someone unless you know the truth, makes you the wrong doer.
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Amen Biggie. I am still waiting for a payment on a bow that someone here committed to almost 3 weeks ago. I will say that this is the first time this has happened to me here. Worst thing is that there are others waiting in line for it.
Have to say though, I still say this is the best place to do it, and I'm grateful for that.
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Every experience I have had on here has been great- bought a pack, some kids arrows, binos, a knife, etc... most of the stuff shipped out before I had paid for it!
very high class people here, no doubt!
L.R.
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I've been screwed 3 times here in TG.
Once by a Sponsor who finally got kicked off after ripping off a bunch of people. Hope he's havin' fun at the Ren-Fairs or whatever ya call 'em.
Second time by a member who I thought was a new Trad friend. He only lives about 10 minutes away....He ended up taking a bow but didn't want to pay up for it. We were to swap for his bow building stuff. After months finally said I wanted bow back since he never delivered goods. When he finally put the stuff outside his house in the rain I went and got it. Most of it was junk and fallin' apart. He still is on here....I just am waiting to pay him back what he deserves. :saywhat:
and THANKS, to all who have been true to their word, and those who were patient with me and made it possible to get some great bows to try out. Thanks again to 97% of yas, :thumbsup: 97 out of 100 ain't too bad I guess.... :archer2:
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Biggie i know what u mean. i have had the same things happen. someone says they want the bow and then they come up with excuses, kinda why i dont sell bows on here anymore. would rather sell and trade among my close friends here in the area. plus that way i can always shoot it lol :) last bow i tried to sell 2 ppl did it to me. needless to say if i ever do decided to sell one on here it wont be to those fellas, lifes to short to wait on ppl that dont know what they want
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No matter what group you're in, there will always be one or two bad apples. I've had a great bunch of deals on here with great people and I believe that the majority of folks here are honest. But there will always be a few that aren't.
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Terry,
Just to lighten the mood... I had to smile reading about "don't read the rules"...well, heck man, we're guys! We don't ask for directions and we don't read direction prior to assembly...! :rolleyes: Just ask about any woman! :) What makes you think guys will read "rules"!? :knothead:
To the quality of Classified Transactions:
I'd echo that my dealings here in classifieds have been sterling. Bought expensive binocs YEARS ago and the guy sent them immediately before he got my check! Amazing.
I've sold some bows...just a spare few that were too stout for me anymore...and got great comments on my packaging. That makes me smile!
But Biggie, I echo your overall observations and have typed it here before--- we're drawing an ever broadening group of converts to "Trad". I see it at local shoots... people's values are way different...not just "honesty" but also in "consideration for others".
People being drunk where formally, no booze is allowed, but quiet consumption is tolerated among mature individuals... and those who were drunk were also rude, crude and loud and drove a friend and his family home being camped near them! Once alerted, the organizers escorted those folks off the premises.
People used to get up and leave "your fire" when you stood up and said it was time for bed, but now, they just stay laughing and joking to the wee hours and burning up YOUR wood! With you trying to sleep 20' away!?
Never saw that the first 15-20 yrs I was hitting trad shoots. Never!
People leaving their drivel all around your campsite for you to move and clean up before you can even make your own breakfast, or you come back and find a mess and have to clean up before you can do your own lunch, under your own tarp and clean off your tables, etc.
With a greater cross section of society engaging in trad shooting, you get a broader band of social norms and beliefs.
As with preserving quality trout water, you recruit more supporters, who then crowd into the same stretch of water you used to have to yourself!
There is a razor's edge between preserving a desired endeavor and it "catching on" and moving off it's previous center!
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"I'll gladly repay you Tuesday for a hamburger today"
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-CZtVxNFsac/SlIfRj4gGCI/AAAAAAAACUw/Nn__R6Ip430/s320/wimpy.jpg)
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I agree with you Biggie 100%. That being said, my one caveat is when someone desires a Postal Money order for payment. For me this is a major pain in the behind. Mostly because I have a very busy schedule and a trip to the post office to wait in line to get a money order is just hard for me to fit in.
I usually deal with this up front by asking what payment methods the seller desires prior to committing to buy, or I will say something like "If you accept PayPal I can pay immediately, if you will take a check I will mail today and you can hold the item till check clears and you have your money. If you want a money order it will take me a couple days to get that out to you." If the seller is ok with that then I will take the item, if not I won't but I try to not say I'll take it unless payment methods are discussed and agreed upon up front.
If I lose an item taking the time to make sure me and the seller are in agreement then so be it. I have not yet had an item sold out from under me taking the time to remove any misunderstandings prior to saying "I'll take it".
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I`ve had nothing but great dealings here.The biggest problem solver on any transaction is communication. If you are timely and return pm`s and such right away it will all be to the good.RC
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Doc Nock, The way you put things will never cease to amaze me. Once again... Well said my friend!
Jason
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Just got off the classifieds and read this. I am considering a bow that is lighter, as an old shoulder injury has been paining me. I am sure I can work through it, but am looking to the future. I didn't pull the trigger. Have to check finances first. That said I have lost lots of opportunities by thinking about it for a half hour. I always figure that is how the cookie crumbles, but night cause some others to commit before they have checked with the bank, or boss.
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TG is made rhobust due the synergy derived from the masses. Still yet. TG is made up of people.
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BobCo 1965:
I'm sure you're a good human being. But you, my friend, are part of the problem.
You said (above): "I will not judge."
A segment of our society has shouted down the majority, saying that no matter what offends a person, he should not judge; in fact, he has no right to judge.
That's crap. Wrong is wrong. When I see it, I not only judge, but I confront.
Lack of integrity, the subject of Biggie's initial post, is a BIG PROBLEM . . . and we need "judges!"
Mark
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Wow, reading this makes me feel lucky. All my transactions have worked well.
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Originally posted by mmilinovich:
BobCo 1965:
I'm sure you're a good human being. But you, my friend, are part of the problem.
You said (above): "I will not judge."
A segment of our society has shouted down the majority, saying that no matter what offends a person, he should not judge; in fact, he has no right to judge.
That's crap. Wrong is wrong. When I see it, I not only judge, but I confront.
Lack of integrity, the subject of Biggie's initial post, is a BIG PROBLEM . . . and we need "judges!"
Mark
I see it differently (except for the good person part). :) ;)
And actually to be fair, this is what I said:
"But until I am standing in the other persons shoes in their circumstances, I will not judge. "
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Originally posted by mmilinovich:
BobCo 1965:
I'm sure you're a good human being. But you, my friend, are part of the problem.
You said (above): "I will not judge."
A segment of our society has shouted down the majority, saying that no matter what offends a person, he should not judge; in fact, he has no right to judge.
That's crap. Wrong is wrong. When I see it, I not only judge, but I confront.
Lack of integrity, the subject of Biggie's initial post, is a BIG PROBLEM . . . and we need "judges!"
Mark
I agree with Bobco we should not judge. Nothing in the original post by Biggie states why the person could not pay for the product. If like me the person lost his job and can not pay for the product then the person should not be looked down upon. by reading some of these post it looks to me that people are agreeing with biggie because of who he is instead at trying to look at the big picture and finding out what was the reason the person reneaged on the deal. What is wrong in some peoples eyes is not wrong in everybodies.
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mmilinovich, would you please tell us what integrity is because as I see it you have none! To me it means having a code or values that you live by and that you are willing to listen to others point of view, and never apply it unfairly. You are the problem, you want to be the judge, jury, and hangman without even knowing what really happened and always pass the blame to others. I try to live my life with one thing that helps me make up my mind,believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see, and never make a judgement without the facts. You sir,in all due respect to you, are the problem not the answer.
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seems like there are two different scenarios that have recurred in this thread. That of being downright ripped off and, OTOH, having a promise to buy broken. Two very different things.
All of my buying and selling on the internet has been satifactory at least and mostly superlative. That includes ****, auction arms, various claissifieds such as here on TG, etc. Have not used TG classifieds but expect If ever I do it will be satisfactory as well.
When one takes orders without deposits, it will always be subject to "the law of diminishing intent".
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I've bought, traded, and sold a few bows and other stuff here and up to a couple of weeks ago I had a person say he would take it and them e-mail me and said he changed his mind. But at least he e-mailed me.
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Oops! Sorry, did not realize that "****" is unmentionable! :o
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Oh please. If the guy contacted Biggie and told him that he just lost his job I doubt Biggie would be upset. From his post it seems these people just don't care and never contact you again. I see it with a friend of mine who makes knives, they tell him whatthey want and that they will meet him at the club on this date and never show and keep blowing him off so he misses chances at selling the knife to someone else. Because of this he is now asking for deposits.
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Well said!
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I have bought and sold about 2 dozen bows on this site, on one occasion I boxed up a bow and waited for the check that never came-so someone changed their mind, now I am boxing stuff up more slowly.
IMO This site is especially safe to deal on compared to any other.
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Right on biggy,glad you covered this.Twice now in the last 2 weeks I have found a new to me bows that was "the one"I had the green light from lil wifey to buy a new one for my 50th B-day.The first one,the guy must of sold it right away and then just never came back to his add(not on this site").I was bummed!Oh well,at least I didnt get took.I must add that the people I have bought from on this site,have all been great so far.I was real sorry to hear in the last year or so about a few bad apples popping in.
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one thing I do is look up the persons recent posts on their profile page if they only have 20 posts and they are all classifieds in the last month, I pass on them.
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This thread serves a good purpose....it will only make the site better....so please, do not loose control and start attacking folks personaly.
Like I said....mistakes happen, and when they are dealt with in the correct manner, then they are not a problem. However, there are exceptions that causes frustration beyond just the parties involved. THOSE are the one's Biggie is referring to.
:campfire:
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I'm right there with you guys. Had it happen a few times. I actually had a longtime member on here send me a PM offering to sell me a set of BL longbow limbs. He quoted a price, I replied that I would take them and he has refused to accept e-mails or PM's since and, he deals on here all the time. I'll not mention his name but it sure left a bad taste here.
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I've bought a few things here, clothes, bows and quivers and have always had a good experience. One time I did ask a guy if he accepted Paypal and he took it to mean "I'll take it", but that's really no big deal. Sometimes someones work or family issues could cause a delay in communication, but the key word is "communication"...
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I usually don't hit the I'll buy it button unless I've got the cash stashed away in the first place. If need be I'll put something on the credit card, the vendor gets paid and I'll deal with the bill and interest. I have been in the situation where the car actually did break down. I had to cancel going to an event I had regisgtered for. Stuff happens once in a while. Who knows what people are doing or thinking today though. I've had good dealings with folks here and have always done right by them. I expect no less but am aware of the realities.
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You state he cannot judge you but your original post states that you can judge someone you dont know,Did I miss something :confused:
if you look 5 post above yours it was stated not to make it personal by the man who can judge what goes on on his site,so why not respect him and one another. Thats my thought!
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I pretty much agree with bobco1965. Backing out of a deal with a sad story after you said you'd buy it isn't the most honorable thing in the world but there's s heck of alot more rotten things guys are doing every day and none of us really do know what that guys situation is. If this guy cashed a check or received something and didnt pay or scammed someone, those thongs cant be overlooked or forgiven. I'm not trying to make light of the situation but none of us really know whether or mot spmething bad did happen to this guy. Probably didn't but coulda happened.
Mmilinovich I'm pretty sure you drew 1st blood in the judgment game when you called bobco 1965 "part of the problem" when it's pretty obvious you don't know the guy. Kinda late to get huffy and complain "you dont know me and have got no basis for judging me in that regard"
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I agree with Biggie but also know that the tyranny of distance here in Oz can throw spanners in the works .
I have a knife and a bow I am still expecting almost a year after paying for them ...
but conversely I pulled out of a deal with a fellow TG'er just last week after [ through no fault of the seller ] the shipping charges grew expedentially .
I am still a fan of Int Money Orders because I can always cancel cheques etc p[ and have had to xcancel a few and reissue them ] , but I have had a couple go missing ... Paypal is a bit of a pain because I use it like a credit card and only transfer money onto it when needed , and that means a trip to the bank .....
So someone not using paypal is not a problem for me as I understand it . But I do understand that it can be frustrating for some as the transaction takes longer , particularly for those of us outside the USA ... it took me 6 weeks and 2 int' cheqies at $ 30 a pop incharges to get money to Dave Mitchell last year ......
And I was guilty , plain ol' forgetfullness , no excuses of forgetting to post a cheque a year ago to a TG member . Its all cleared up but I know how frustrating , AND how embarrassing it can be .....
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RAU and BobCo1965:
You fellas are correct. I called BobCO "part of the problem." I shouldn't have. I should have said that BobCo's stated position was part of the problem, not BobCo personally. For that, I apologize to BobCo.
RAU, you excuse a dishonorable action by saying that "there's a heck of alot more rotten things guys are doing every day . . ." Most people doing wrong can use that argument. It's not a good one.
Furthermore, RAU, I was neither "huffy" nor did I "complain." I merely stated a fact (i.e. that Crow didn't know me) and that, contrary to his stated principles, he was judging me.
Anyway, I'm disappointed that dishonorable actions are so readily accepted on TradGang. But, I'm through arguing the issue.
Mark
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On a positive note, I have had nothing but good transactions here in the last year, but a little due diligence never hurts.
Oh and what's that verse - "let your yes be yes, and your no be no." No need to make a big commotion, if you say you are going to do something, be prepared to follow it up. I'm also sure most understand true emergencies versus backpedaling excuses.
And . . . if you don't have much in the way of values and only adhere to the law of actions and consequences, just understand that screwing someone over once will undoubtedly hurt you far greater in the long run than any short-term benefit, especially on a site like TG.
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Yep, a man's word, spoken or digital, should be the law. But then again, there's some on here without values OR a sense of humor. Should be a G.I. Blanket party for the ones that break the code!
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i agree well spoken, i have had nothing but good from everyone i have delt with on this site so far. i will continue to keep my fingers crossed. i do however like the paypal cause its safe and i got ya if you try to rip me. i dont like doing money orders if i dont have to.
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For those that don't like MO you can always send cash. I'd never turn it down, but if you use Paypal it costs to do the transaction so be prepared to pay more to be fair to the seller.
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Originally posted by mmilinovich:
Anyway, I'm disappointed that dishonorable actions are so readily accepted on TradGang.
Mark
Exactly what are you basing that statement on?
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In 'another life' I worked in sales, where we had a saying: "Buyers are Liars." I get it that stuff comes up. Just say, "Hey, Man, I can't do it."
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I'd be scared to stiff Biggie - he knows where I live.I do understand the frustration, and I totally agree with the guys who say a man's word is his bond. Or to put it another way, if a man's word is no good, the man is no good. Thankfully most of the folkss on this forum are true to their word.
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Originally posted by Sam McMichael:
I'd be scared to stiff Biggie -
I'd be scared to stiff Biggie too....
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I think one of the points to be made here is Think before you say I'll take it. Sure, if you have to go count pennies to see if you can afford it and it gets sold you will be disappointed. But it's better then what's happened here. For Biggie to make this public it was more than a simple PM from the buyer with,I lost my job or my car broke down and I can't do it now. Be responsible folks! :bigsmyl:
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Originally posted by ksbowman:
For those that don't like MO you can always send cash. I'd never turn it down, but if you use Paypal it costs to do the transaction so be prepared to pay more to be fair to the seller.
oh yea, thats not a problem to feel secure about it all. only money order i would take would be from the post office. and reason i say that is because i like to get guys there stuff out quickly. it's hard being on the receiving end knowing you either sent the money or sent out the item and not sure your going to be getting anything back.. but i guess a guy could wait till the money cleared before shipping the item out.
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Have only had a few transactions here on TG. All went very well!! Understand bad ones happen once in a while. Fortunatley it is not the norm here.
Also, not that the # of posts make a guy honest, but I when see a guy has been around for a few years, it makes sending a MO easier.
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Originally posted by ksbowman:
For those that don't like MO you can always send cash. I'd never turn it down, but if you use Paypal it costs to do the transaction so be prepared to pay more to be fair to the seller.
Again, agree 100%. I prefer to use PayPal for several reasons but I ALWAYS pay the 3% extra to cover fees even if the seller doesn't ask for it. Is just the right thing to do as far as I am concerned. Is worth it for the conveinence. Now if I am the seller I expect the same in return.
One other note, sending money to pay for items via PayPal as a "Gift" to avoid paying the fees is wrong. Same as stealing IMHO. If you don't want to pay the fees don't use PayPal, plain and simple. Maintaining a service like PayPal costs money it is a business just like any other.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
Originally posted by mmilinovich:
Anyway, I'm disappointed that dishonorable actions are so readily accepted on TradGang.
Mark
Exactly what are you basing that statement on? [/b]
I think Mark was referring to the individual responses by tradgangers that were posted to his early comments. He wasn't talking about tradgang as an entity but he didnt make that clear.
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A man is only as good as his word.
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Yep it is a bummer when you think something sold to someone and they back out. Of a greater concern to me would be someone who has a habit of not honoring a commitment made. I think we all would agree that sometimes things happen that necessitates a change in plans, but even so, it is still important to contact the person you're dealing with ASAP and let them know so they can move on.
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I hate to hear this, but with all the transactions on here, it is going to happen.I always leave my item for sale until I receive the funds. I also always request a postal m/o. If thats not ok, dont buy my item.
I have had such good luck on the classifieds, I am knocking on wood. I agree comunication is a big key. I believe tradgang does the best job of protecting its members from rip offs that it possibly can.I dont think we can be protected from buyers or sellers backing out, its an integrity thang.
Ironically, the only time I have been burned on here was on the ST Judes auction. I just sent the cash and considered it an addition to my donation.
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I would never commit to buy anything here if I did not have the money to pay for it immediately. I like to use PayPal mainly because I can send the money within minutes of saying "I'll take it". If the person doesn't want paypal I send a check or money order the NEXT day. If I lost my job after I aggreed to buy it I wouldn't even know it until after the money is gone.
I think in most cases when someone backs out they found something else, decided they didn't really want it, or got the door slammed by the boss. That being said, all my dealings here buying and selling have been smooth deals with top-notch people. Unfortunately, as the site grows so will the number of questionable characters. As Uncle Buck said above, read the persons posts to try and determine what kind of person you are dealing with.
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Ive had this happen. Had a member say he would take a bow at a less price than offered, I said ok and ordered another item with the money I though I was getting and the next he pm that he had changed his mind. lucky that I still have a little savings or I would have been in a bind as my only income comes from S.S.
Also have had some back out of trades lately so now when they offer I try to make sure it is a go before I decide to do anything.
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Tire kickers who want to know if you can reduce an asking price and disappear after you agree to reducing. I always feel like I owe it to anyone else interested after to drop the price for them too, whether they asked or not.
Being charged 3% for a paypal shouldn't be passed to the buyer, fleabay started that...
Rusty
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YIKES! Did this go astray or what?? :confused: Lots of Nasty Comments that I dont agree with. Harsh Words Gain Nothing. :thumbsup: My Hat is Off to the 99.9% and to the Mods! Talk about your Thankless Jobs!! THANK YOU to ALL the Mods! :thumbsup:
:laughing: :laughing: @ Fleabay! :laughing:
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Mr. Hoffman was kind enough not to post anyones names, But i am one of the ones he is talking about.
I was going to buy items from him for my wifes bday, so i sent money to a close friend/basically family, to buy them and take them so my wife would not find out about it. My friend was supposed to have been getting ahold of him and take care of it, and for some reason did not even though i reminded him several times. It his show season right now but he kept saying he was going to take care of it.
Mr. Hoffman emailed me for an update, and I asked my friend why he did not take care of it yet, and he said that he emailed Mr. Hoffman and was getting it taken care of. I would have just sent him more money to just take care of it but unfourtunatly i didnt have more to send.
All of this is NOT intended as an excuse, the blame falls squarely on me and I feel awful about it. I was the one who made it more complicated to begin with and relied to heavily on my friend i guess. I should have just sent Mr. Hoffman the money and hid it better from my wife.
So i want to make a public and sincere apology to Mr. Hoffman, i am sorry for the trouble of it all.
I am not a dishonest or disingenuine person like some stated in this thread (Mr. Hoffman even stated he was going to just send them out right away, before i paid, and i told him to wait and the surprise situation, so i was ABSOLUTELY NOT attempting to take advantage of him!), but if that is how its seen then that is the punishment for the trouble i caused.
Mr. Hoffman was fair and nice through the whole thing even though he got screwed on the deal.
So again, I am very sorry to the trouble.
Fin
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Same here, just this week had a trade offered to me, when I accepted the offer....guess what ??? they changed their mind and wanted me to sell my bow and buy their's !!! Ain't happening . Just a mental note stored away for future dealings. Not that big of a deal really, for I have made some really good friends in swapping bows n such on here. More valuable than a block of gold !!!
Froggy
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I think the fact that this fellow came on when he could have remained anonymous says a lot.....
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Originally posted by Roger Norris:
I think the fact that this fellow came on when he could have remained anonymous says a lot.....
Yep, me too.....
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Originally posted by Roger Norris:
I think the fact that this fellow came on when he could have remained anonymous says a lot.....
Agree whole heartedly!
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Fin, that says a lot that you posted that. takes a man to fess up.
I have bought and sold so many bows on this site it is scary. Knock on wood I have yet to have a bad experience. I can't say that about two other sites.
Just last year I bought 2 sets of bear TD limbs from 2 different guys. Both sets busted with in the first 10 shots. I was absolutely sick. I called and e-mailed both guys, not an issue both refunded the money and did not question it. That is incredible, I wish I could call them out for their good dealings but as I said I buy and sell so much I loose track.
Don't mean to get mushy but the MAJORITY of guys on this site are a cut above your average hunter.
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MTarrowlauncher, to step up was a humble and honorable thing to do. As stated in many post, others do and will continue to do things in the classifieds that may not be on the up and up. Hopefully things will change. Humans make mistakes, ALL OF US!!
:campfire: Lets keep the fire burning,so even the lost ones will see the light.Tim
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A man's word is paramount in my book.
But I think each person deserves grace.
I try to give each one some as I have been the recipient of it unconditionally.
I am proud of how this thread has worked out.
You folks are just the best of the best.
God bless,Mudd
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I've had more than a few interactions on this site with Cody (MT ARROW) and would say that I find him honorable and respectful. Loosing a "friends" trust is probably worse than a sale gone awry. :(
That leaves one other incident Biggie had that moved him to post... an impulse buyer who reniged.
There seems to be a line drawn in all this: Pro and Con. I think we all agree Biggie was rightfully irritated at 2 deals gone sour. They can shake a man's faith in his fellow man.
But we didn't know the whole truth and Biggie chose NOT to give a lot of specifics but seemed to come here simply to 'vent' to his 'family' about trad values going beyond a style of weapon. Amen.
In one case, someone trying to do a sweet thing for his Sweethang, went awry due a a "non-friend's" lack of integrity.
In the other case of Biggie's, from his brief post, the guy reniged after the fact. There is that pressure on the Classifieds to "jump, froggy, Jump" (no pun intended Lanier) :) or it will be gone!
Someone in these 6 pages mentioned how easy it is to get sucked into the "impulse" buy on the net.
Doesn't excuse the behavior, Maturity demands honor too, but it does suggest a lack of rancor or premeditated malice.
That MAY (can't read another's mind thru a post)so I'm guessing but it MAY have been where someone stepped up to suggest we don't "judge" in advance.
Only Mr. Hoffman truly holds that right to hold bad feelings as he is the one hosed on these deals.
I now hope that our own Officer in AK can recoup his lost funds from his "friend" and that Biggie can re-sell quickly the items and recoup his revenue.
Peace out.
:notworthy:
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There are lots of "classy" folks here.. By far most of the members are honorable, I would guess..
We are very fortunate to have men like Doc, Mudd, Crow, Bob and many others in our flock..
I'm glad that Biggies frustration has been laid to rest, at least in part.
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I beleive what just happened here just shows how great this site and the people on it are. :clapper:
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Good post Fin. You should be commended for your courage and integrity of making this public.
:thumbsup:
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Like I said.....this topic will make the site better.
Thanks Tim Jones.....I removed his post last night and walked off the keyboard.
Gregg....I hear ya, just wanted to make sure he wasn't trying to say WE at TradGang don't take care of business when folks get truly screwed.
There's a Hall of Shame list to prove it.
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Great Thread.
I have had several people back out of sales. Like has been mentioned earlier, Communication is key. The no response for weeks on end is frustrating, especially when you have other people who want your item. I always do the honorable thing.
3 weeks of no contact is my limit, I would think any buyer would understand that I would repost sopmething for sale even if they had computer problems or personal issues.
The upsetting thing is when someone says they will take it, is actively on Trad Gang and then ignores you but is still on the classifieds telling other people they will buy their items and eventually give you a song and dance about why they are backing out of your item.
I always live up to my word as do 95% of the people I have dealt with here. If the person is someone I dont know from this site, I research their other dealings and contact people that have dealt with them.
I understand exactly where Biggie is coming from and am glad he posted this thread.
I try not to pass judgement but sometimes it can be difficult. I keep my mouth shut when I feel someone is negligent or irresponsible unless tehy are outright corrupt.
I am grateful for this site and will continue to use the classifieds.
Thanks for all the Mods who keep it a great plce to visit. :thumbsup:
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Furthermore, RAU, I was neither "huffy" nor did I "complain." I merely stated a fact (i.e. that Crow didn't know me) and that, contrary to his stated principles, he was judging me
mmilinovich, I will apologize for what I said but did it to show that when we don't know the circumstances or the why's and wherefore's its best to know the truth before outing or reprimanding them. I just like to give the benefit of the doubt.
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That was the right thing to do mtarrowlauncher, alot probably wouldnt have. I love this site!!!
In my initial post i can see how someone could have thought i was excusing a bad action by listing worse actions. Wasnt my intention but i can see how someone could have thought it. Im not going to edit or delete it tho.
Where did the "you cant judge me you dont know me" post go? Thats weird! Its gone!
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Well, I didn't read 7 pages to say nothing! :D
This has nothing to do with the specific situation in previous posts but I have also had folks back out and just want to say ... Please do not drink and shop the classifieds!
I reiterate, this is not a reflection on the previous posts or Biggie's specific dealings. It is just another reason why people have "buyer's remorse". You should not be shopping with impaired judgment! No matter how relaxing it may be for you, it is sphincter tightening for the seller.
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:) Good one, Jedi,
To quote Tom Selleck in the series The Sacketts, "Whiskey gets blamed for a lot it didn't do!"
Another good point and cautionary note for all. :thumbsup:
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I have been extremely fortunate in all my sales here on TG and I want to thank all those who purchased items from me. I get kidded because I "over pack" the items so no way will they get damaged in shipment.
When a member asks me to put the item aside for him because of certain reasons....I will. Like I said, they all came through when they told me they would. Small items we can live with...but to bail out on a bow, quiver, expensive arrows the last minute...NOT GOOD.
Personally, for me, it would be the last time I deal with that individual. For the buyers out there....THINK BEFORE YOU SAY YES I'LL TAKE IT. You bailing out might cost another buyer a chance at a product he really wanted. Keep The Faith...
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I often wonder if its a "I cant afford it, but I dont want anybody else to have it either" situation. Or better yet its a way to put a hot item on hold until the "boss" clears the purchase. Either way it s steaming pile of horse apples in my book.
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That's the right thing to do, Fin. :thumbsup: The best rule of thumb in Internet sales is to "go in a straight line" The more zigs and zags the more chance for a wreck.
And I'll second the "Don't drink and post, period." And that is coming from a whiskey peddler.
One of the first things I read on this site was the advice to never say "I'll take it" unless you can actually pull the trigger. But I can see where a problem could result that is not a matter of honor or character. If it does, man up, and as quick as you can, confess.
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I have had only excelent dealings on this site. I bought a bow and the bow came in the day after I sent the money order. This was a $600 Robertson.
That impressed me so much that now I do the same. I will ship on agreement. If I get stiffed... well, I can't help that. They are the ones that have to sleep with that. I will say that I have never been stiffed here.
God Bless,
Nathan
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a sign of the times for sure. if TG had a feedback system, you could leave negative and it wouldnt take long you'd know who not to deal with. 99% of the guys here are straight up tho
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Even with friends at times you just cannot win. A couple of years back I decided to trim the bows down to two left handers and two right handers. At first I was thinking of selling everything and just getting one good bow and just shoot that. In the process I ended up not being sure of the quality of my used stuff, so instead I gave it away to folks that I knew would use it. I gave a Hill bow to one fellow and one of my Hill blank jobs to another. Then wouldn't you know,one day they compared their bows with a chronograph. My blank job was faster and the one that got the free Big Five felt screwed. I had to remind him of the four deer he had taken with it, his first four deer in 12 years of bow hunting. Then he acknowledged that it was a better draw weight for him and thus the better bow of the two for him. It is time again for me to trim the ranks by a couple of bows and I am already getting nervous about it. If someone backs out of a sale, I know it may cause frustration, but it is not worth demonizing someone over, times and finances are variable and tough for some folks. I have been there and I may be there again, besides it is fun helping out those in need, most of the time they really appreciate a little help. Is a friend worth the price of a used bow or some arrows? Every time.
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This site is the best. I've learned alot, made new friends, bought, sold and traded and never had a sour deal. Maybe I'm wrong but I've found that the Trad community in general has a certain sense of honor that I've not found anywhere else. I try not to let a few bad situations change my opinion.
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I've never sold traded or done anything remotely like this on here or on any another site. I will say that I was brought up believeing 90% of folks were good and 10% were bad. I'm sad to say that after 53 years wondering around on this planet we call earth I believe that 90% are bad and 10% are good. The good news is that I think the majority of folks on here are in the 10% GOOD. But it only takes that 1% to make it look bad! JMHO
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If you had to dis uss it with the " boss" you have problems
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If you had to dis uss it with the " boss" you have problems
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And there is the other side of the coin, if you don't discuss with the boss you may have a very big problem lol.
Or as Mr. LaClair says it's better to ask forgiveness then permission lol.
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I recently agreed to buy a bow from a bowyer and was/am extremely excited.
Two days later I was hit with a dental bill that was out of the blue. The dental needs are my daughter's.
Crap happens. I am fortunate to be able to take the hit with the dental bill and still keep the bow commitment.
Some folks may not be so fortunate. But as so very well said, communication and understanding are key. If your excuse is just a change of heart, that's where honor is lost.
I can see both sides.
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If you are buying things with the last money in your account, then you are being a little reckless. If an emergency pops up, then what? you back out of a commitment?
Not me. I understand things come up, but to be reckless is poor planning. Poor planning is the fault of the responsible who planned it.
My guess is a lot of people are bad planners and have poor judgement. I see it with drivers every day, why would it be different with money?
I am not harping on anyone specifically, just had a bad day. Thanks for allowing me to vent in this thread.
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Depends on the size of the emergency.
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Cyclic you need a hug and a drink, your allowed to vent anytime.
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It would be nice to have a feedback section in here somewhere to leave info on how transactions went with sellers and buyers.
@admin,
Would it be difficult to setup a section like this we could view when we maybe click someones profile?
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We had a rating system that didnt work out so good.
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Don't like rating systems.....someone can bad mouth someone just out of spite.....and that we can't really control. And what a can of worms that would be.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
Don't like rating systems.....someone can bad mouth someone just out of spite.....and that we can't really control. And what a can of worms that would be.
I have seen this on other sites, not trad or even archery sites but other forums that have a "Classifieds Section". Many times instead of trying to "work out a problem" people just go off on a tear against someone and usually the thread has to be closed anyway because nothing constructive comes of it. I will say the "iTrader" type rating systems seem to work pretty well for both providing a feedback system but honestly, I do not see the need here. I have purchased a lot of gear here without a single problem. To the contrary I could fill a page with the generosity and kindness I have been shown by members here. I will also say that TGs "Wall of Shame" is far smaller than what I have seen in other forums. This has to be one of the best communities I have interacted with and I spend ALOT of time online in forums of many different topics and genres.
Kudos to all here who make this such an absolutely wonder site!
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I agree with Charlie, don't commit your last dime to buy something you want but don't need. Someone posted above that he committed to a sale using funds he had not yet received from his own deal with another person, and then tried to blame it on a deal gone sour. Thi
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I agree with Charlie, don't commit your last dime to buy something you want but don't need. Someone posted above that he committed to a sale using funds he had not yet received from his own deal with another person, and then tried to blame it on a deal gone sour. This is WRONG!
If you don't have the money in your hand DON'T AGREE TO BUY SOMETHING!
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Sorry for the half-post. I need some reading glasses!
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Originally posted by Bud B.:
Depends on the size of the emergency.
You are right, I had a clause in the there that had me off the hook, but must have edited out.
It does depend on the emergency. Things come up, and always will. I think everyone will understand true emergencies.
Some people seem to come up with emergencies often. :rolleyes: I am referring to someone who backed out of a sale 2 times and strung me out over the course of 4 months. :mad:
Now that I have worked through my bad day a little, I will will reiterate I have had much, much more positive experiences, than poor. That is a true testament to the people I share a cyber campfire.
:notworthy:
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Ok I have only read a few of these post and I have to say the ball goes both ways. I have agreed to buy bows from people only to have them to come back and tell me they were no longer for sale because there dad wanted to try out left handed and liked it. So don't just trash those who back out on buying something. Eather way if you want to buy or sale something let your word be your contract.
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In my opinion, the "traditional archery community" is a microcosm of society. To assume otherwise is not only naive, but foolish.
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I have faith in everybody I deal with.
I don't trust any of them to be perfect.
I've never been burned on TradGang.
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The guy who stiffed me had 6 months to tell me he changed his mind, had he done so before I finished his bow I would have been no hard feelings about the deal whatsoever.
The fact that he was such an irresponsible, thoughtless jerk is what ticked me off.
I don't know if other bow makers have done it but I have sized up potential customers in person, face to face, nice guys, humble and sincere people and tactfully talked them out of buying one of my bows. I could tell that the money they wanted to spend on one of my bows would be better utilized for family expenses.
I also run into guys who have little or no traditional experience who want one of my bows really badly once they see one. Again, I tactfully steer them to another choice, a good used or vintage recurve most of the time.
This type of dealing is what typifies "traditional values" to me.
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Originally posted by Cyclic-Rivers:
Originally posted by Bud B.:
Depends on the size of the emergency.
You are right, I had a clause in the there that had me off the hook, but must have edited out.
It does depend on the emergency. Things come up, and always will. I think everyone will understand true emergencies.
Some people seem to come up with emergencies often. :rolleyes: I am referring to someone who backed out of a sale 2 times and strung me out over the course of 4 months. :mad:
Now that I have worked through my bad day a little, I will will reiterate I have had much, much more positive experiences, than poor. That is a true testament to the people I share a cyber campfire.
:notworthy: [/b]
When I read your post the first thing I thought of was Joplin. And by emergencies I mean emergencies.
Hugs to you CR. :)
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Even in church groups there are some dishonorable people.
Regarding one point of the discussion: it's OK not to ship before the money comes, even if it is someone you trust. Stuff happens. It is not insulting. Some failed transactions can be prevented by common sense.
"Trust in God but tie your camel."
On a lighter note. This site Rocks!
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I still agree with Cyclic's first post.
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Luckily, I haven't been burned on any of my many dealings on TG. BUT, I do go through some "back ground" checking efforts before I agree to deal. I always look at the buyers/sellers recent posts just to see who they are. I may lose some deals if it's not obvious they are good folks but that's OK.
Also, and think we all should more, call out not only the bad actors (e.g. hall of shame) but the GOOD ones as well. Rather than a simple TTT in the classifieds, I'll help out someone I have had positive dealings with and give them a "Good guy/gal to deal with here". A little positive reinforcement could go a long way ;)
Sorry Biggie had to go through some bad dealings but I think this may end up helping us all!!!!
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I recently sold a bow to a guy on here with 0 posts and a memebr for 8 years. It didn't compute so i asked him a bunch of questions in the end he called me and I got a good vibe. Would up send him the bow and a few shafts since he was returning to trad to try and still haven't cashed his MO because I want to make sure he is satisfied with the bow.
When I give a buddy as TTT on a post for a bow I will comment on my positive experience if we did business before so any potential buyer can have more piece of mind. I think that is a good way we can help each other out.
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It is scary to even give stuff away. There are always newcomers and those that don't know what they are doing that can bash a perfectly fine product and the real problem was that they did not now what they were doing or talking about. The education that one can get from other Trad Gang members is going a long way to educate newcomers, but I still run into those that claim they have longer draws than they really do and then blame everything on the equipment when things don't go like they expect.
I was going to thin the herd by giving some of my bows away to those in need, but I have even had one of local boys try to take advantage of that. The fellow really 'needed' a bow and some arrows, he had a new baby on the way, no job, and a spanking brand new Harley he just bought in his garage. He could not understand why I turned him down and now I'm the biggest A-hole around. I did find homes for the bows with arrows and I have made certain that the set-ups will work for those that are getting them. The last of the group a 52# 52" Pearson and arrows is boxed up and ready for delivery.
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OH, I usually just roll with it when that happens, but I see your point and I'm glad you spoke up. Sometimes it's the best thing to do.
-Mike
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Have sold ,bought and gave a away a few things on TG . Have NEVER had a bad transaction . BUT it can and does happen unfortunately .
COMMUNICATION is the key to any honest transaction .
Thanks to tradgang for all the friends I have made on here :)
Jack
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Turkeys fear me,
The traditional archery community is NOT a microcosm of society. Far from it. In my experience they are the cream of the crop, as in the best rises to the top.
The social median is way below the character of folks that I've gotten to know on this site!
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Bud's comment about some people having a lot of emergencies reminds me of my old teaching days - I never got too bent out of shape until the third grandmother up and died on a scheduled test day!
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Originally posted by COLongbow:
Turkeys fear me,
The traditional archery community is NOT a microcosm of society. Far from it. In my experience they are the cream of the crop, as in the best rises to the top.
The social median is way below the character of folks that I've gotten to know on this site!
Yes, there are a lot of good people here, but not all. If they were all good, there would be no "Hall of Shame."
People are people.
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TFM,
Yea you're right, people are people, but my point in my rebuttal of your premise was that the character of the folks on this site do not represent a cross section of society.
All you gotta do is lurk around the other sites to know what's up. Pretty objective evidence.
I'm just glad they allow me on here.
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I've sold a ton of bowmaking supplies on TradGang.
I've been burned a couple times, but you play the odds every day in some way.
This is a great site and trad guys are THE best folks to deal with day in and day out. :notworthy:
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EDIT:
Trad gals too!
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I have bought, sold and traded a bunch of bows on here, aside from 1 delay, an honest mistake that was above board (and the guy threw in a Helle knife to make up for the delay), I have had NO issues on here. I don't ship a bow until I get a PMO, and I don't expect anyone to ship a bow to me until they get my PMO. Fair is fair. The only issues I ever have, is when I try to sell the bows for a fair price, what I paid for them, or often less, I get quite a few low ball offers. Some are tire kickers, looking for better photos or a lower price. Perhaps they are interested but can't afford it. That I understand, although if I didn't have the cash, I would bother asking to begin with. And a few, not many, are looking to buy low and resell at a substantial profit. They don't care about hunting, shooting or collecting old bows, respecting others, or Traditional values, ONLY making a quick buck. Once, I had an "occassional" member here, full time on the "other" site, try to low ball me and tell me both my bows were over priced, flawed, etc. He went on and on, essentialy trying to get a free bow via a trade. He only wanted it to resell elswhere and turn a profit. Reputations spread quick, even between sites, and I later learned I was not alone. :) I felt like I was getting e-mails from a used car salesmen, hungry, hard up and on the draw. It was insulting to say the least, and very un-traditional IMHO. But the other 99.9% of the guys I have dealt with on Trad-Gang are Solid Men, Men of character, Men of honor.
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Originally posted by Mudd:
A man's word is paramount in my book.
But I think each person deserves grace.
I try to give each one some as I have been the recipient of it unconditionally.
I am proud of how this thread has worked out.
You folks are just the best of the best.
God bless,Mudd
:thumbsup:
I have never gotten ripped off. The vast majority of the time I have had great dealing on this site, but it has not been perfect.
I had a broadhead deal drag out for while and got my money back this fall. Heads were lost in the mail and guy was off hunting a lot I was told. Could well be the case. I have no reason not to believe it.
I had a bow trade not work out well. I got one with undisclosed limb finish issues in trade for a brand new bow. When I complained, I was told there was something wrong with my bow but he would work with it if I did. I just moved on. I am not done buying and selling bows, but I don’t plan to do any more sight unseen trades unless it is someone I really trust a lot.
I have had more than a few back outs including a couple from very well know bow traders on this site including one that never did return a PM or e-mail.
I am not perfect. I know I backed out on a purchase because I goofed up on the bow model or weight. Can’t recall now what it was for sure, but I made a mistake and got back to the seller as soon as I realized I messed up. I don’t believe we even finalized payment method. I know I have had a change of heart a couple times, but ended up just buying it because I said I would.
The big thing for me is that someone communicates. If I don’t get a steady stream of communication, I figure the deal is not done and move on.
Things do happen particularly in this economy. There are little emergencies like car problems and then there is the big stuff like medical issues, and loss of a job. You shouldn’t be wheeling and dealing bows if you can’t handle a few unexpected bills. However, you can have plenty of money for a bow, but lose your job and you better be putting that bow money in the take care of the family fund even if you have the spare cash over the short term.
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I just wanted to update the situation. My buddy who was to facilitate the buying for me so my wife to not find out, called me today and said that the items showed up today, and he did infact buy them. Just as the deal was set up.
So, just to clear my name, I did not back out of a deal, and I am not devoid of Trad Values. Although between my friends busy work schedule and trying to figure his paypal account out, it did take longer than necessary, and for that i am still sorry for and still appologize.
I just did not want to be forever wrongfully labeled as untrustworthy, or that i back out of deals. I was trying to do something nice for my wife and it blew up in my face, and caused Mr. Hoffman some trouble and i feel bad about that.
This is in no way in spite of Mr. Hoffman, or intended to be snotty, I just wanted to be honest about how it ended up just as i was honest in taking responsibility in Mr. Hoffmans post and appologized.
So to Mr. Hoffman, I am sorry it was drawn out and took longer than necessary, but I am glad it worked out in the end. I hope there is not long lasting hard feelings with you or with anyone else who saw the original post. I truely cherish this site for the info, the camaraderie, and the great people.
thanks for listening,
Fin
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Well, what you described isn't traditional values, it is morals and values that all men should have. Your weapon choice doesn't make you a better man. I understand your dilemia but not your way of thinking. "Trad values" is a name you have given it. I call it being a man. God Bless
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Llll