Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: capt eddie on June 23, 2012, 09:56:00 AM
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Can someone tell me why there is such a long wait for a custom bow? Does it really take 6 months to build a bow. Are the bowyers that far behind on their orders? Are there that many bows ahead of your? If a bowyer has that many orders to fill, why do they not go up on the price of their bows so that they can make a good living and be able to get bows out in a reasonable length of time? Like 30 days. I would rather pay them a higher price and get the bow earlier. From start to finish if it takes 12 hours of real work to produce a quality bow why not charge $100 an hour and build one bow instead of charging $25 an hour and needing to sell and build 4 bows for the same money? Yes one bow cost $1200 and the other bows cost $300. More people can afford a $300 bow but now the bowyer most built three times as many. I think that in this day. There are people that would pay $1200 for a bow if they could get the bow in a reasonable length of time.
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From my experience, there are a variety of quality bowyers out there. They all vary on lead times depending upon how many orders they have, and how much help they have.
One of my favorites from NC builds fantastic longobws. When I first called him 5 years ago, he told me he would rather build a quality bow a working man can afford. I really appreciated that. You are right, you can spend quite a chunk of change, but you'll find bowyers are very ethical and upfront in lead times. They don't move peple up/down the list depending upon what someone is willing to pay. My opinion, if 12 month wait is too long, move on.
A number of bowyers have fantastic instock bows, one comes to mind that I just checked, is Cari-Bow Abes bows are masterpieces, as most all the sponsors here on Trad Gang.
many bowyers don't have extra help, as they are very particular on quality, and having extra hands some feel compromises there quality.
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It seems to me that most bowyers are also artists, and very particular about what they produce. They won't sell a bow that does not meet their very high standards, so it takes extra time to get it just right before it goes to the buyer.
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I saw a nice wheelie bow on the shelf the other day for only $1,650 no wait at all.
I'll wait for a nice longbow made by hand rather than a button push on a CNC machine. All I can say is thanks to all the bowyers out there for keeping the price with in reason.
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I hope I never have to pay $1,200 for a bow !
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6 months is a long time, but if I had to wait that long I would be ok with it because I know Im getting a good bow
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I know quite a few bowyer's that are running their business solo, and I'm one of them.
Building a custom bow is much more than just having the customer pick out a wood choice and design, and just build it to their desired weight.
The time it takes varies on the design I'm building and the specs. If i could choose a few types of wood myself and mass produce riser blocks, and the lamination's needed for the limbs, i could boost my production and cut my lead time down a lot..... but... they wouldn't be considered custom bows anymore, would they.
For me the wait time can change from 60 days to 6 months very quickly depending on sales. It seems to run in spurts for some reason. if i could get the orders coming in at a nice steady rate as fast as i can build them, that would be excellent.
But then you still have machine maintenance and repairs, time chasing materials down, advertizement and promotion time to include traveling to a few events. Now take all this stuff and add a bit of warranty work and R/D work on new designs, and build a few stock bows for your display..... Well there just isn't enough hours in the day, or days in the week to stay ahead of schedule sometimes.
Just about the time you start getting caught up and announce your lead time is shorter, You get swamped with orders again....
i didn't even mention that somehow you need to work 7 days a week keeping your customers happy and still have time for your wife and kids at home too....
If i didn't have such a passion for building bows and enjoy my work so much. i would find something else to do to make a living. The profit margin for a custom bowyer isn't very high at all when you start adding it all up.... If you don't enjoy your work you'd go nuts....
my .02 cents.... Kirk
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They are worth the wait. Patience, Grasshopper, patience.
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Very well said Kirk. :clapper:
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So let me see if i've got this right...if a bowyer can't get a custom bow made for you within 30 days, that bowyer shouldn't accept anymore orders til he has those bows made? Or he should jack the price up so he will have fewer orders but make just as much money? Christopher Cox of Habu bows has jacked his price up to about $2000 and he still has about a two year waiting list. There are a lot of other good bowyers out there that charge in excess of a $1000 for their custom work and still have a year waiting list. i hear what you are saying, but....
i don't have a problem waiting if i really want that bow and the bowyer is up front with me on how long the wait will be.
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I received a bow 2 weeks ago which was ordered 2 years and 6 months ago. The worst part was that the bowyer promised to deliver it within 3 months after my order.
Personally I believe many bowyers are great tradesmen but not really good at business management. Or at least not good at managing customer expectations...
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a Custom built bow is like fine furniture. If you want something to throw in a corner go to walmart and buy a 100 dollar manufactuered piece. But if you want something that will last your and your children lifetime, a piece that you are proud of and want to show all in the house, then that is Custom. Bowyer's don't make alot of money on the product and work of art they make and for what they do come up with work of art. If you don't want a custom, there are still plenty of Manufactured companies out there, but once you shoot a custom, guess what?
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because they are their own boss.
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Most bowyers are meticulous about their work, and if you can create a decent backlog you can improve margins.
And don't forget many have day jobs too so they can feed their families and put kids through school just like the rest of us! :archer2: :archer2:
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At this point I would like to thank Mike at Maddog for making a superior product at a poor man's price, it seems that there are more than enough people trying get rich rich quick these days. If tradtional archery gets too expensive, it will go away. I for one am glad that the lesser priced bows are quite often as good as the custom bows.
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Twelve months for a custom made bow is not a long time.
Remember that time can be on your side, too.
I waited 12 years to get a custom made Wes Wallace Royal. Of course, it had been custom made for somebody else 12 years ago, but I only had to pay half the price of the original owner.
Factory made bows? I waited almost 60 years before I got my birth year Bear Kodiak!
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kirk-
great explanation. thanks
i've run into this with custom knifemakers, and wondered some of the same things as the original poster.
you've cleared it up for me.
joe
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I recently waited 11 months on a bow, which was a few weeks later than what I was originally told. What makes it hard is seeing the people who post here and elsewhere that say they talked to bowyer today and their new limbs will be ready in two or three months. Some send bows to be refinished and comment on the fast turnaround. Occasionally they order a stock bow and want extra limbs made which will be ready next month. Then some post that they ordered a new bow today and they claim their bow will be ready before yours. Certainly not true of all bowyers, but has prevented me from ordering another bow. I'm presently watching posts about another bowyer with about a seven month wait to see what others say. I don't mind waiting my turn, as long as things are as presented.
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Toelke has a fast turn around.
Darn nice bows too.
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Most bowyers are one man operations and they may have another job, even if they only build bows for a living, it takes time to build a quality bow the way someone wants it built. It is not just a matter of slapping some wood together and calling it good, a lot of work goes into each one. A one year wait is not bad for a quality bow, some have a two year wait. If you do not want to wait, buy used or off the shelf if they have any or buy a production bow.
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I appreciate a custom bow. I can see where it might take a while given different circumstances. Persoanlly, i'm not patient enough to wait a year.....i'd just look for a used one. 3 or 4 months i could handle. Everyone is a little different
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If you're not willing to wait for a custom bow, many bowyers will sell you a bow off the self. But would it be custom? I like to be able to pick out the materials my bow will be made from and the draw weight as well as bow length.I guess thats what makes it custom. It seems like most boyers that I talk to have a turn around time of three to four months, Not bad I dont think.
I just bought a Great Northern Ghost from Jerry Brumm at the Compton shoot. I love the bow . It shoots great. I'm very happy with it.I have also ordered custom made bows from great Northern and waited about three to four months and the bow was exactly what I ordered.
Maybe you could try to make a better bow then all these bowyers the you have to wait so long for. Make it faster than in a few months and for less money.
And maybe you already have all the knowledge to build a bow that will perform to your likeing.
Let us know how that turns out for ya
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Good things come to those who wait. One person can only build so many bows to the standards that the top bowyers hold. There's plenty of good shooting production bows and used customs out there if the wait is a problem.
I've been on the Blacktail wait list now for fifteen months and don't expect to get my bow until later this fall. I'm fine with that because I know it will be perfect when it comes. Of course I have a few nice recurves to hold me until then... :archer:
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X2 On Dan Toelke bows. Quick service and one of the best out there in my opinion.
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Thank you Lawrence,
Capt. Eddie, Here's the way things are in the realm of "professional bowyering"
Who told you 12 hours of real work? Even if that were true, no matter how hard at it we work, we can't make epoxy cure faster, we can't make coats of finish cure faster. Additionally to the time we spend in building, we also spend hours replying to e-mails, talking on the phone, working on our books, Maintenance on equipment, finding a good source for a type of wood we've never heard of, but a customer wants a bow made from it, cleaning up dust, when it's all said and done at the end of the day, we can only hope we've make sufficient progress on our present orders so we won't be back out in our shops after dinner.
I love my job and I get about 3-5 bows out per week. In my Previous life I was an Aircraft Fuel Systems Mechanic for the U.S. Air Force, I did that for a little over 20 years. This job is much more demanding, especially going solo. We have to work extra hard to get a little ahead, so we can take a 2 week break, only to find out a customer has been trying to get a hold of us while we were away, because his son needed his bow rushed for an archery even next week. It happens A LOT! We put our customers needs in the forefront of our minds because for most of us, our goal is to make bows, making money is secondary, perhaps even out of shear neccessity.
Would I put a customer to the front of the line because he offered me 3X more money? Not on your life. I've had them try before. I will however make an extra effort to get one to a kid with an upcoming birthday, because his father (probably extra busy like me) waited until the last minute to order it. (not for extra $$ though, and only on my own time if I have it)
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Part of the fun of ordering the new bow to me is the anticipation of it arriving. I have just as much fun thinking about what the bow will be like etc and how it will shoot as actually receiving the bow. JMO
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As I see it all bowyers are different. Some of them know what they are doing and are very good at it. Some understand building a bow but the physical skills needed (i.e. using tools and having a feel for them) are somewhat less in the realm of things and then there are those who are pure genius, have a complete understanding on the build and materials and nothing short of true artisans who are efficient, exacting and professionals who's sole job is to build the finest bows imaginable.
If you have ever had the privilege of watching Dan Toelke and his son Jared build bows you will understand they fall in the later category. Hence the SHORT turn around times yet producing weapons of the highest quality and artistry.
Watch then set up machines, mill stock, assemble the parts, and finally shape and finish a bow to EXACTING standards is nothing short of amazing. :bigsmyl:
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I would say if you dont want to wait try building them yourself. That way you get to pick the wood, plan the shape, everything. And you will soon learn what goes in to building one. ( and yes I do make a few) And no I would not do it for a living.
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There's no way I would or could spend $1200 on a bow!! I think others would agree.
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Let me add I have two bows that cost $525 but I got them 2 years apart. I waited only about 60 days. Two bows didn't cost me $1200.
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Seems like a lot of folks are taking offense to capt eddie's questions. I don't see why. Seems like he was asking genuine questions to educate himself (and the rest of us).
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I now own three bows from custom bowmakers. My first was a longbow from Mike at Maddog that was built for me. I just bought a Wild Horse Creek bow, off the rack, from Mike Dunaway and I recently traded for a Drifter made by the late Jim Brackenbury. All three are unique and fun to shoot.
I also build selfbows so I understand the time and work involved in building a bow...it is not as easy as some of these guys make it look.
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And educate I did, Jeff. I certainly wasn't offended, I just have a bad habit of explaining too much.
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Good conversation to have for a bunch of us new guys. Let me say "Thank You" as well to all the guys that build amazing bows and work to keep the prices where an average guy can afford to own a couple...or more...or more!!!
I've been bitten and kinda look at the wait time as a layaway plan. Looks like most of the bows I would like to try require a small deposit to get on the list and get it going. I could then spend the next few months while I'm waiting for it paying for it in a few payments to the bowyer! Definitely works for me and will keep the "boss" off my butt for dropping $500 -$700 at a time. This even seems like it would allow many to have a couple bows working at the same time and make multiple payments over that time frame.
I have no complaints.
If i get impatient I can always hit the classifieds and get something quicker!! Just sent payment off on one today and can't wait for it to get here! The addiction has begun and my wife is afraid!
Don't double or triple your prices to get fewer bows out quicker......PLEASE!!
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Originally posted by Mike Mecredy:
And educate I did, Jeff. I certainly wasn't offended, I just have a bad habit of explaining too much.
I wasn't directing that at you ar anyone in particular....just a sense i had reading through the thread. I appreciate your insight.
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When I was little my aunt told me I had two options for breakfast, Take it or leave it. The same goes for a custom bow. going in you know what your your wait time is. If you can't wait go to a different bowyer.
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I ordered a longbow from HHA 3.5 weeks ago and got it today. Craig told me when I ordered it would be 3-4 weeks. I consider it a custom bow as I picked all the woods, tiller, length, draw weight, finish, grip shape (based off my drawing), string, grip material, personal inscriptions, etc. Granted HHA builds the same basic bow over and over again which I am sure speeds things up. That being said HHA seems to have their act together combined with a very good work ethic. In the end they sent me a stunning bow for less than $600 shipped, and in a matter of weeks.
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I didn't think so TxAg, but I have been in the past, ask the Question; Why will it take 12 - 14 weeks?
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x2 on Maddog service.
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On another note...(not a Maddog)
I ordered a bow to my specs Dec of 2010 and sent in the $280 deposit. I was told six months. It arrived Jan of 2012. The bowyer was/is not a full time bowyer but did it on his off days from his real job, which puts food on the table, and so on. I didn't like the extra wait, but I certainly understand it and have no ill feelings whatsoever. The only problem is, I ordered two more bows in the wait time and have changed my favorite style of bow and the first one has been shot maybe a dozen times. It sits on the rack alot.
But at least I have several to choose from in case I change my mind. ;)
Several custom bowyers have great bows with little wait. Shop around. There are many good ones out there.
Having said that, I won't wait another year for one. The classifieds here are a great resource :)
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I will wait the year.please dont jack your prices.They are CUSTOM BOWS HAND BUILT JUST FOR YOU!!!! If it will make you feel better I will sell you my silver tip for 3000.I can have it to you in a week.
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It seems to me that waiting for a handmade bow only makes it more special when you finally receive it. As others have said, there is a lot more to running a business than just making the products. A bowyer has the right to decide what his lead time is. IMHO
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I'm with SKITCH, I don't mind a longer wait, I have plenty of bows I can shoot in the mean time and the time lets me pay it off in installments after I make the initial down payment to get on the list. I typically don't have $700 - $1200 at my disposal when the new bow bug bites me, much more manageable for me to pay over time. Bought many bows that very way.
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My last custom bow was ordered with a 12 month lead time. That bow took 28 months to make. I missed two bow seasons with it. I reached the point where I didn't even care.
When the bow was finished the bowyer discounted the price for the extra time. I appreciated that and it went a long way toward soothing my feelings on the matter. When the bow came it was everything I had hoped for, I shot it a few days and realized it was "the one". We have bonded well.
Even though I shoot this bow very well, I never would have ordered it if I had known it would take so long, it just wasn't worth it.
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I require 6 months but generally deliver in three and very seldom over four. Never have taken the six but want that time in case I mess up, get hurt , sick ect. Kirk explained it all very well. People do not see the countless time buying materials , talking with customers,. ect/ I just got a bow back that I did not even know was coming with a note saying, I fell down and broke my bow , I sure hope you can fix it/ That kind of thing happens and we do what we can to be a blessing to our customers/ It all takes time/ I have to stop and clean up the shop once in a while, Mow the lawn,. Plant the garden. Drink a cup of coffee/ I very seldom have any time to build stock bows , go to shoots , ect ect/ Honestly I do it simply because I love building bows and I want each one to be as nearly perfect as I can get it/
When you are talking about actual build time/ Well I take a couple of weeks just sanding and applying the finish. Sure I could sand it and spray it in one day.; But then It would not be the same. A part of the quality would be gone/ Real custom builders make sure each part of the bow is as good as humanly possible and sometimes that means literally redoing it or starting over when with a mediocre or production line bow you would get it as is.
Good enough is not in my vocabulary and when it is ,. If ever, I will find something else to do.
God bless you all,
Steve
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Originally posted by TxAg:
Seems like a lot of folks are taking offense to capt eddie's questions. I don't see why. Seems like he was asking genuine questions to educate himself (and the rest of us).
Originally posted by TxAg:
Originally posted by Mike Mecredy:
And educate I did, Jeff. I certainly wasn't offended, I just have a bad habit of explaining too much.
I wasn't directing that at you ar anyone in particular....just a sense i had reading through the thread. I appreciate your insight. [/b]
So your previous comment wasn't aimed at Mike or "anyone in particular"... lol. Random thought is random I guess.
Once a person has really been into the in's and out's of this monster called traditional archery... which for a lot of folks is a life style... you begin to understand and appreciate and respect the time and effort that goes into everything that it comes with... the equipment... custom bows, quivers, knives and such... then there's the things that some people don't really notice that consumes an equal amount or, for some, more time that goes into crafting those custom made pieces... like the practice in shooting and tuning, building up in bow weight, land and game management, scouting and planning of hunts... and teaching others to shoot and hunt.
For some people some things are worth the wait. I forget the exact wait time for my custom made Brack but it was close to a year... for me it was worth it... even though I ended up selling it... it was definitely worth the wait to me... then again I just love this thing we do too much to care about wait times and prices... I'm patient enough to wait and pinch some pennies... or even 120,000 pennies.
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Yea the wait can hit a point where you kinda even forget about it. Recently I even ordered another from another bowyer while waiting on one.
They both came this past week ( go figure).. I've been known to get a little carried away according to my wife. That deal also cost me a very expensive vacume purchase as I didn't have a leg to stand on denying it.
But then I get to play with the new bows while she plays with her new power sucking miriacle vacume and attachments cleaning up after my shedding dogs. win win all the way in my eyes LOL
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Originally posted by kawika b:
Originally posted by TxAg:
Seems like a lot of folks are taking offense to capt eddie's questions. I don't see why. Seems like he was asking genuine questions to educate himself (and the rest of us).
Originally posted by TxAg:
Originally posted by Mike Mecredy:
[qb] And educate I did, Jeff. I certainly wasn't offended, I just have a bad habit of explaining too much. [/b]
I wasn't directing that at you ar anyone in particular....just a sense i had reading through the thread. I appreciate your insight. [/b]
So your previous comment wasn't aimed at Mike or "anyone in particular"... lol. Random thought is random I guess.
Once a person has really been into the in's and out's of this monster called traditional archery... which for a lot of folks is a life style... you begin to understand and appreciate and respect the time and effort that goes into everything that it comes with... the equipment... custom bows, quivers, knives and such... then there's the things that some people don't really notice that consumes an equal amount or, for some, more time that goes into crafting those custom made pieces... like the practice in shooting and tuning, building up in bow weight, land and game management, scouting and planning of hunts... and teaching others to shoot and hunt.
For some people some things are worth the wait. I forget the exact wait time for my custom made Brack but it was close to a year... for me it was worth it... even though I ended up selling it... it was definitely worth the wait to me... then again I just love this thing we do too much to care about wait times and prices... I'm patient enough to wait and pinch some pennies... or even 120,000 pennies.
I wasn't being negative and i'm glad to learn some info. Maybe i'm crazy, but if you go back and read all the posts, you might pick up on a few posts with negative connotations towards the OP. That's all i was referring to....like i said, no one person in particular
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I guess its easier for me to show you than to tell you why it takes so long. This is an older Stotler,
just by looking at the wood layout and design, you can see that theres no mass production here. A custom bow takes time patients and skill, hence the long wait. (http:// [url=http://images.imagelinky.com/1340497090.JPG] [img]http://images.imagelinky.com/1340497090.JPG)[/url] [/IMG] (http:// [url=http://images.imagelinky.com/1340497150.JPG] [img]http://images.imagelinky.com/1340497150.JPG)[/url] [/IMG]
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Ah yes, the waiting game.
For me it's good practice for hunting. I'm waiting on a Zipper right now. I didn't even ask how long it would take. But every now and then, I get a bit itchy...Just like in hunting!
From all I read, it'll be worth the wait.
Good input from the bowyers on their reality.
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I can't find anything that stands out as negative. Maybe it looks that way because of the majority of the posts side on wait time being a non-issue?
If you don't want a lengthy wait time or a huge price tag then proceed on to something else that suits your needs or wants.
Anybody ever see a "My bow is better because I waited longer and payed more for it" thread? I haven't... but I have seen threads of the opposite nature.
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i ordered a bow from nate at bamabows a couple of months ago.
i paid the full $496 at the time.
he only asked for a $100 deposit, but i wanted him to know i was fully in.
from what i've heard, nate is always a pleasure to deal with.
but we've chatted about fishing, hogs, and Lord knows what all.
when i slack off a day or 2, he sends me a link to something or other.
this is my 1st custom bow, but not my 1st custom order.
enjoy the experience. go an extra mile, and every custom knifesmith or gunsmith will go 2. or 3.
bowyers too, i reckon.
they're mostly all in it 'cause they love it.
joe
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A lot of variables in play. Every bower and the bows they build are different. If you don't want to wait, there are options available in both factory and custom. A lot of good in stock bows out there to be had. Supply and demand might make you wait if there is something in particular you are after. I'm waiting ........... But I just bought a nice used bow too. It's all good.
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Originally posted by critter69:
I would say if you dont want to wait try building them yourself. That way you get to pick the wood, plan the shape, everything. And you will soon learn what goes in to building one. ( and yes I do make a few) And no I would not do it for a living.
My thoughts exactly!
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Thanks to all for the replies. My post was not a complaint as much as a business question. As I have researched the subject and I did find out that the cost of the bow does not have alot to do with the lead times. As a matter of fact, The higher the cost usually ment a longer lead time. There must be plenty of people buying $100 to $1800 bows. I wonder if the one man, parttime operations would and could charge more for their bows and not have to work as much. Then they could get out a bow quicker. Be able to have their bows pay for insurance and retirement. I do not begrudge a bowyer making a good living doing what he loves and be able to support himself and retire. And if I did work for them I would like the same courtesy. But if you tell some people that your are charging them $75 to $100 an hour labor they would go elsewhere. Just check with a plumber, sheetmetal worker, or take your car back to the dealer for work. They have no problem putting up a big sign that shows their rate. Why not bowyers.
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I ordered a custom last year, when discussing the build I asked the bowyer how many hours he typically put into a custom build, the answer, 70-80 hours. To be honest, I was stunned, but when I received the bow and saw the attention to detail he put into it, I understood. This bowyer, like the vast majority of them, doesn't build bows as his primary source of income, it's a second job and he does it at night, on the weekends, or whenever else he can find some free time. My bow took about 3 months, I would have happily waited 12. If it's that important to you, just call the bowyer and ask, I think you would be surprised how little money he makes per hour.
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Hey Cap.....
What the dealership charges per hour is completely different than what the guys spinning wrenches are actually MAKING per hour!! ;)
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why do you insist that bowyers should be hourly wage workers? they are not. they will not be.
they are artisans, craftsmen. some might verge on artists.
why in the world should they charge by the hour, as the tradesmen you mention, to suit your skewed estimation of who they are and what they do?
they are not tradesmen! they are custom craftsmen!
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PATIENCE IS A VIRTUE
I'm currently waiting on 2 custom bows, from 2 different bowyers,and both are running slightly behind their time estimates. I know that I'll get them when they are done, and they will be WORKS OF ART.
As for the 12hrs I seen mentioned,to make a bow?
I think that it would take a lot longer than that.
To pay $1200+ for a CUSTOM bow is Very reasonable. And as for a $500 bow, the bowyer would have to "KNOCK" one up in less than 1day, just to survive.
Everyone wants to make more money, but a lot of folks, when they want something, they want it for nothing, and done yesterday.
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Skitch:The bowyer could be the dealership and get that kind of money.
Sledge; My skewed estimation is that they deserve more out of their craft then living bow to bow. They would all like to retire someday with money in the bank.
daniel boon; You are right $1200 is very reasonable for a bow. And the $500 bow that some bowyer knocked out might offend some of our local bowyers. They might have just as much time and money in the same bow that is being sold elsewhere. They just have to work at other jobs for their retirement and insurance. The $1200 bowyer has that worked in the price. Good for them. I do not know where the idea come from that I am against bowyer in any way. As you can all see from the post. There are different feelings on this subject from within our ranks. I think that they deserve everything they can get for thier bows. I am not one of the labor forces that make minimum wages and I do want the products they can produce. This is not a cut to any bowyer. You all have my respect. I jst hope that they are able to stay in business for generations to come. Being able to do what they do for a good living is the only thing that is going to bribg young bowyers into the picture. If a young bowyers sees that they must have two jobs to be able to live selling $500 bows he will probably not stay in business long. But if he can sell $1200 bows he will be the future that traditional archery needs.
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O.k. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who had to wait for more than 2 years :D
Here's my only REAL complaint. If you make custom bows for money. Please manage your customer's expectations. I think it is wrong to promise a bow in 3 months and then take 28 to deliver. Overshooting the estimated delivery time by up to 20% is not a big deal, but any more than that should at least warrant a phone call or email to inform them up front whats happening. Once I order a bow I'm like a kid waiting for Xmas. If I know up front to not get overexcited its just better for my health in general!
I'm not throwing stones here either. I am TERRIBLE myself with deadlines. Which is why I don't make bows or knifes (my other hobby) on order. I'll make it and then sell it once its done OR I'll make it as gifts to friends. About the only deadline I've ever made was the tradgang bowtrade last year :D
Anyways, to get back to the point. I believe you should rather underpromise and overdeliver, than the other way round.
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capt eddie, I was not putting down $500 bows,I have 2 in that price range, and they are as good, and shoot as well as any, and better than some high $ bows.I was trying to make a point, that a bowyer would have to complete one in 1 day to make a reasonable living. I think that it would take them a LOT longer than that.Meaning what Great value you are getting for your $.
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References,references,references,
Do your homework on the bowyer and there will likey not be any of this,I was promised this and got that stuff.Heck,just come on this site and ask about a bowyer.
There are too many avenues in todays world to find a bowyer that works for you.
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Welcome to the wold of custom anything :)
I have waited years for a knife or gun or bow I have ordered
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Originally posted by Johan van Niekerk:
Anyways, to get back to the point. I believe you should rather underpromise and overdeliver, than the other way round.
I am a General Manager of a store on a daily basis. I can not agree enough with what Johan has said here. When I have customers arrive I give them an estimated wait time on their service, and I always set it higher than I expect. I will tell them 45 minutes if I predict 30, and this has always worked out quite well. It seems as though they lucked out when we get it done in 30 or even 25.
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How did any of you get sold on the idea that its ok for a bowyer to go over the delivery date on a bow? Especially so by many months. I had one bowyer do that to me a long time ago and honestly even though he was a great guy and built me a nice bow I would never reccomend him or do business with him again.
If a man cannot keep his word then there at least should be a valid reason and perhaps even an offer to fully refund the customer.
If I do not get your bow to you on the time agreed I have a standing offer of a full refund unless we change our time agreement due to an energency or mutually agreed circumstance such as a change in bow wanted ect./
As a general contractor for over 30 years I never renogitiated or raised the price of a contract and in my estimation it is unethical to do so. It is also un ethical to tell someone you will build a bow in a certain time, Take their money , then go way over that time.
To the subject though, Rome was not built in a day and neither is a great bow./ Perhaps if you do not count grinding laminations,. overlays,. glue setting time ect you can shorten the time but I firmly believe that you get what you pay for or at least should. Question is are you paying for a reputation that is not now being adhered to or are you really getting what you pay for?
Overbo made a good suggestion. Research the bowyer and read some of the reports on his bows/ Ask his customers how He has treated them?
God bless you all, Steve
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I don't necessarily "LIKE" long waits, and don't know anyone else who does, but there have been a lot of good reasonable responses as to why there are.
If I had a 28" draw I would never buy a "custom" bow, as there are lots of "in stock" and "used" bows that I would love to have ..........but, to get maximum performance for me personally, I'm willing to wait, and I understand WHY.
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I think this thread has been pretty well beaten to death, but to continue flogging a dead horse, I make knives. I'm not a professional. I'm a 71 year old retired engineer and have no intention of working for a living any more. If I do something now, I do it because I enjoy it. If somebody likes my product and wants to buy it, I'll sell it for a reasonable price and sometimes a bit cheaper than reasonable. The only time I will agree to a delivery time is if someone asks me "Can you get this ready for my son's-husband's-wife's birthday/anniversary-etc" If I believe I can do it, I will agree to it and then bust my butt to make it. Otherwise, I'm in this for the satisfaction it gives me making the knife. I work on it when it feels right. If I don't like the way the handle scales came out, I grind them off and start over. If the plunge line isn't right and I can't get it straight with another attempt, the blade goes in the trash. If you want one tomorrow, go to one of the many on-line shops, pay with PayPal and pay the freight for overnight shipping. You will have it in a day or two.
I've ordered a custom bow, been thrilled when it came in early, but would have enjoyed it just as much if it had come in late because the limb veneers weren't what the bowyer thought they would be, or his hand twitched on the bandsaw or whatever. I ordered a bow from him because I admired his work - not because I needed a bow for the upcoming season.
I'm guessing there may be some part-time bowyers out there that have similar feelings. I don't claim my product is better than anyone else's. I just want to know that it's the best that I can produce at my current level of experience and it meets my expectations however long it takes me.
Ron
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I have only been back to recurves for a couple of years. Wait time hasn't caused me not to order any bow I wanted.
I do expect a pretty good estimate on when the bow should be finished and almost all are on time or a bit early.
Actually, the only bow(s)I've ever ordered that were quite tardy (50% overdue -- 12-15 weeks instead of the 8 weeks I was told) were factory bows. Of course I was only mildly disappointed and not at all mad.
I'm near the top of a list now waiting for a LH version of a new bow that isn't even being made yet. I've been on another (different bowyer)list for 1.5 years and expect a call this fall about my turn coming. I'm also about to receive a bow from another bowyer in time for a special trip next month.
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I need to back and reread but... who said anything about bowyers going over their proposed wait time? I can understand a long wait time... but not one that keeps being pushed back. There are times when things pop up though.
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Ok found them. Any chance any of you guys with horror stories wanna name drop?
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I'll start it off; I've had "stuff happen" and had to tell people it would be a few more weeks, added to the additional 12 - 14 they already waited.
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Originally posted by Mike Mecredy:
I'll start it off; I've had "stuff happen" and had to tell people it would be a few more weeks, added to the additional 12 - 14 they already waited.
Sounds like good customer service to me... one would expect a call should things get pushed back beyond a projected date.
I actually enjoyed watching my name work it's way to the top of Bill Howland's on-line list... and keeping track of other's progress... maybe something's wrong with me, lol. There's a few familiar names on it right now!
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That is probably the most annoying thing, is when a bowyer does not return email. Especially when they do it is from their Iphone. When they say it is all finished and will be mailed next week and next week never comes.
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That would be frustrating to say the least. Especially if it came from one of those stupid iphones! (I don't even have a pay as you go cel phone, I hate them)
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Everyone who has posted on this thread should tip their hat to Mike for publicly admitting has gone over a promised due date. And everyone on here has been through enough of life that they understand sometimes things happen and you have to push back projects to get them done to their satisfaction. I have never once dealt with a bowyer I felt was rude or out of line in the way they treated me, their products, or the service they promised.
Having built a few bows myself, I am 100% confident that any price a bowyer asks for a bow is a bargain to the customer. The last bow I built I put at least 50 hours into, start to finish, and the end product wasn't nearly as beautiful as a custom bow from a professional bowyer.
Bowyers will forever tinker and try to improve because they want to give their customer the best possible product. That is the nature of the art they create that every one of us loves. If it takes another week or month, hey, that's fine. That's just one less month I have to mess up their creations.
"I've been called many names like perfectionist, difficult and obsessive. I think it takes obsession, takes searching for the details for any artist to be good." - Barbara Streisand
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Mike at Mad Dog stands behind his bows 110%.
He gives great service and better than great value.
:thumbsup:
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It's been my experience, that the bowyers that have long leads and miss a date once in awhile have full time day jobs.
That doesn't make them bad guys. They have to earn a living.....raising a family on bowyers pay is pretty darned unique.
Other factors are popularity....bow brands get hot and cold....Shrews, for example, tend to get a frenzy going.....we have never discussed it, so I am assuming a bit here, but Ron and Gregg love the business, but cringe a bit when the backlog starts piling up. But what should they do? Stop accepting orders? Thats a hard business decision, that is a serious risk. All they can do is inform the buyer up front that it will be awhile.
I have never had a date slip from gregg Coffey or Steve Turay.
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There are many reasons for a long wait for a bow. Some may be valid, and some may not be. Some archers will accept the wait time, and others will not, and there is no fault in either opinion. But the simple fact is, that when you order a custom bow, it takes how long it takes.
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You know what's fun... Spending forty hours untwisting, carving, sanding, finishing, tweaking, and so on just to have your selfbow explode right before It's supposed to ship!
As far as cost goes, very few people understand the time and effort that goes into making bows. I can't understand how Mike can sell his bows for what he does! ... Oh yes, It's because he enjoys it. Those people that have never sweated it out in July and August trying to make that bow for the upcoming bow season won't be able to understand the wait times or the price of a 1200 bow. All I can say is try it sometime. I give free lessons to anyone that asks me, how much would you charge me to make me a bow.
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to each his own...custom work takes time....consider this....do you want a Kia or a Cadillac....go hang with a bowyer for one day, and a lot of your questions would be answered....
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Along with Mike Mecredy I'd like to add Jim Neaves to the list of bowyers with excellent customer service. About a month back I bought a Chimera off the classifieds here (thanks again Joe) and had it sent to Jim to shave a few pounds, reshape the grip, remove the owners name and old specs and add the new one. Communication through emails has been flawless. I told Jim that he could ship my bow out after I paid him for the work this Friday. He told me that I have been waiting for it long enough and shipped it out this morning. What can you say about guys like Mike and Jim... just awesome man! :thumbsup:
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To me, There just isn't any shortcuts in traditional archery or the making of a custom bow. The path to isntant gratification is the wheel bow. The choice is smooth rich graceful lines and laid back times (traditional) or slam bam thank you (wheelie). I'll take Trad. life everyime!!!
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How long do you wait, when they say it will be mailed in a couple of days, and it is 9 days later. At what point is it considered unproffessional and aggrevating. i draw the line at 9 days without a reason being give. But the check cleared the back weks ago. It has been getting sprayed and final coated twice now.
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If I recall, even Jack Howard had a long wait time for his Gamemaster Jets, as he did them in batches at certain times of the year. You get what you pay for in life, not just in alcohol, cars & guns, but with bows too. If you want fast and cheap, buy a Samick Sage. 3-Rivers will have it at your door step in 4 days. They shoot just fine!
If you want an exotic wood, fine quality bow, built to your specs, to fondle in your treestand, and stroke in your den, then pay for a custom job and be prepared to wait.
And, find out WHO you are sending your money to, BEFORE the check is mailed.
There are more good guys out there than bad ones, at least in Traditional Archery. But, as previously mentioned, they also have family, full time day jobs (some), lawns to cut, kids sports events to attend, bad backs, church, medical appointments and all the stress of trying to run a small shop.
Have a cold one, light your cigar and relax. "Good things come to those who wait".
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Originally posted by capt eddie:
How long do you wait, when they say it will be mailed in a couple of days, and it is 9 days later. At what point is it considered unproffessional and aggrevating. i draw the line at 9 days without a reason being give. But the check cleared the back weks ago. It has been getting sprayed and final coated twice now.
You don't think that a bowyer taking the time to take the bow back into the spray booth a couple extra times to make sure you have a high quality product is a good enough reason?
i would think delaying a shipment to give a customer a better product would be a good thing that would be appreciated, not whined about on a public forum. :dunno: :dunno:
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Having finished a few bow blanks, and knowing how long it took me to do the easy stuff and get them like I wanted them, I can truly say I would starve to death if I tried to make bows for a living, from scratch. Besides you can't knock off at 5:00, and there is no overtime pay involved.
Probably takes bowyers a little longer to complete some of the tacky bows we order, on account of only having one hand to work with, due to holding their nose with their other hand.
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Originally posted by Kirkll:
Originally posted by capt eddie:
How long do you wait, when they say it will be mailed in a couple of days, and it is 9 days later. At what point is it considered unproffessional and aggrevating. i draw the line at 9 days without a reason being give. But the check cleared the back weks ago. It has been getting sprayed and final coated twice now.
You don't think that a bowyer taking the time to take the bow back into the spray booth a couple extra times to make sure
you have a high quality product is a good enough reason?
yes that would be a good reason for the wait. But this has went on for 3 weeks now. Would you reply to a customer 3 times that "the limbs are beings sprayed and will be in the mail in a couple of days". I understand that things happen. But keep the customer informed of changes, or problems. Voicing this issue on a public forum will let my know if my exspectations are to high in this matter. And i have nothing to worry about, it happens all the time. I think someone else quoted that Bowyers are great artist and craftsmen, just eccentric at times and not good businessman.
i would think delaying a shipment to give a customer a better product would be a good thing that would be appreciated, not whined about on a public forum. :dunno: :dunno: [/b]
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I didn't think you were whining. I'd be asking questions myself. The internet is full of misinterpretations....don't let it bug you.
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You went from...
Originally posted by capt eddie:
Can someone tell me why there is such a long wait for a custom bow? Does it really take 6 months to build a bow. Are the bowyers that far behind on their orders? Are there that many bows ahead of your? If a bowyer has that many orders to fill, why do they not go up on the price of their bows so that they can make a good living and be able to get bows out in a reasonable length of time? Like 30 days. I would rather pay them a higher price and get the bow earlier. From start to finish if it takes 12 hours of real work to produce a quality bow why not charge $100 an hour and build one bow instead of charging $25 an hour and needing to sell and build 4 bows for the same money? Yes one bow cost $1200 and the other bows cost $300. More people can afford a $300 bow but now the bowyer most built three times as many. I think that in this day. There are people that would pay $1200 for a bow if they could get the bow in a reasonable length of time.
to a sort of rant in...
Originally posted by capt eddie:
How long do you wait, when they say it will be mailed in a couple of days, and it is 9 days later. At what point is it considered unproffessional and aggrevating. i draw the line at 9 days without a reason being give. But the check cleared the back weks ago. It has been getting sprayed and final coated twice now.
Are you having issues with a bowyer at the moment? Is the last post a hypothetical?
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Originally posted by TxAg:
I didn't think you were whining. I'd be asking questions myself. The internet is full of misinterpretations....don't let it bug you.
You say tomato I say tomato. ;)
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I think that honesty & communication is the key, if a bowyer is not going to be able to have a product finished in time they need to communicate this in a timely fashion not after it's overdue by a week or so, they also need to give a realistic time that the delay will be, no point saying it will be ready in a week just to keep the customer happy for that moment if you know it' going to take two or three weeks or more. This only serves to aggravate the customer & destroys peoples reputations."BUT" as a customer you also need to understand that sometimes things happen, if you have done your homework properly & chosen the right bowyer for you than you need to have confidence in them that they will deliver what you have ordered in the most timely fashion that is possible & also deliver the quality that you expect. I know that a lot of bowyers build bows part time & also have a full time job & if over time is available in a job where you actually get paid for all the hours you do I to would take it because in hard times we all need the extra money & if this means some delays then so be it, FAMILY always comes first.As for full time bowyers I honestly don't know how they make ends meet. I have a good friend here who makes fantastic recurves & I know if it wasn't a passion for him there is no way he would do it, he would make more money pushing shopping trolleys in a supermarket but thank God for people like him or we would all be shooting wheeley bows & i don't want to go back there.As far as payment in advance & having to wait for what I have ordered i don't really have a problem with this if I trust the person I'm dealing with & this comes back to doing your homework.I have just received a custom made recurve for my daughter from Herway Bows & they were excellent, I paid for this bow in full well before it was finished I couldn't be happier with the bow so far.I have also bought 5 kids bows from Maddog & his honesty & service have been second to none. I also am currently waiting for a new bow for myself & this bow has taken a little longer than originally quoted but there have been good reasons for this.This bow was also paid for in full back on the 15th of March(about $1350 in total) but I have full confidence I will be happy when it arrives.Living in Australia believe me I know what it's like to wait (Most traditional gear comes out of the USA) I know it's hard to wait sometimes but a bit of patience goes a long way.I have also just paid the deposit on another bow & I have been waiting months for this guy to start taking orders again(he also has a real job)he could have asked for my deposit months ago which I would have happily paid but he wouldn't take it until he was happy he could start the bow that's honestly & integrity.I became a member of this website because I believe in the ethics it tries to promote & I have got to say that all the people I have dealt with so far have not disappointed me at all.
Thanks
Lyonel
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My current issue is with a bowyer that emailed on the June 15, that he finished the tiller on the limbs, will spray them an, and get them out next week. Then a week later an email that he is spraying the limbs and will get them out in a couple of days. A week later the same type of email, Spraying the limbs will get out in couple of days. Three times the same story. This post is not directed to hurt the bowyer or his business. I have tryed calling but only get a answering machine and no reply. Only he knows what is going on. Just a little communication may solve all of this.But he has my lifes blood of money for a set of limbs that I do not have. My first post was really in do conpare the two differant types of bowyers that i have researched. The Big money guys and the lesser priced.
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I think what most forget is that some guys build the same bow over and over, just use different materials, others like to come out with new models, that takes a lot of testing and design time. So maybe the price and time are reflected in that. Not to pick on them but for example, you can get a great Howard Hill longbow, priced very reasonable, but the design of this bow has hardly changed. Now take a look at a carbon, no glass longbow by Border, priced at least 200 higher, yet I believe it took more r and d to make the Border than the Hill, and the guys at Border are always looking to increase performance. Does it make one better than the other, no way, but there are reasons at times other than materials that create the cost.
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Eddie,
My last bowyer had about 3 months to build mine and I thought that was more then a resonable time and he comunicated with me on the internet and with a few calls and I was very pleased with his customer service...He had quite a few bows ahead of mine and he also is a carpenter,chicken farmer and more important a Dad with several children to help raise...We tend to forget that these bowyers have a family life and we need to give them ample time to build our bows especially if it's a part time hobbie or job...I had asked to have some very special work put into my bow and some stippling with a moose antler that my bowyer hasn't done till mine and he was a bit unsure at first but I trusted he would do an excellent job and he proved me right...Now if you really want a bow quick you also need to understand that some bowyers have to order exotic woods that need to cure and the moisture needs to be a certain level if they don't stock it so that adds to more time...I would rather wait for a Quality and not Quanity job...Bowyers have created some very beutiful bows and some really nice designs lately and I respect the wait time...If you need a bow in a jiffy then you may want to order a mass production bow like a Bear or a Samick or such but if you can give a bowyer your patience then you will have a bow that was custom built and you can admire the talent they put into it...My bowyer was Lee Hoot's and not only just a bowyer but who I consider a friend and brother now...He and I will p.m. and harass each other over anything but he asks about my children and just about anything that pertains to archery and family and that cann't be bought...I look at my bow at times and wonder how could he build this thing so quickly and still be a carpenter,chicken farmer ,father and still be a bowyer with so much on his plate? Thank you Lee Hoots! :thumbsup:
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The list of fantastic bowyers who are also good at running a business is too long to list here. Not a name or two...tons of great ones.I'm sure a few are not, but they wont be around long.
When business is slower, bows turn out faster. When they get 100 orders in a day.....theres suddenly going to be a wait! Plus almost every bow is different. Too many variables to try and generalize the bowyers craft like that Eddie!
It stinks you are having a hard time, I can guess how frustrating that must be. I've never had a bowyer give me false or exaggerated info. Usually the opposite, and I've had dozens of custom bowyers build for me. Maybe I'm lucky but I dont think so.
I've had to wait extra but I've always been contacted first and I have no problem waiting longer if thats what it takes.
If not willing to wait or accept delays, a custom is probably not for you. (Not YOU personally and only Capt Eddie...anyone in general here).
You can get great bows that are factory made or plenty of customs from classifieds at great prices and no wait.
Unfortunatelty every custom I've ever had has taken time. I'm okay with that because its the nature of the beast. A custom bow should be a pleasure in your life, not a source of pain. Relax and roll with the punches, the extra time wont kill you...although it may feel that way!
If you get seriously dissed by a bowyer at some point...there are lots of Tradgangers here to back you up and pressure the person to make things right.
I hope things turn out great for you, I for one have not see a huge difference in service from BIG money guys or lesser priced if I know of the bowyer. Some guys are part time, some guys are raising a family at it. That changes price. If I see a bow I want, I decide if I am willing to pay what the bowyer wants for it. Thats my call. If its 3000 or 300 its my call. And yes I have spent both of those numbers...ouch!
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It never was and still not an issue with the time it takes for a project. But when I am told a time frame I take the person for their word. And if problems come up, and I question the time do not blow me off with a flip response. Tell me what is going on with me bow. It broke and I'm starting over, the dog chewed on the limb. Just dont keep me waiting withut an explanation.
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No disrespect Capt.Eddie but your first question was Why it takes so long to build a bow wasn't it? Now you are saying It never was an issue with the time....Now I'm :confused: and :dunno: what to tell ya... Now on a serious note if a bowyer gives you a time frame I also would expect to hear from that bowyer if a problem on my order came up and cann't blame you for being upset...From my experience I have found that a little homework and questioning the bowyer up front will help me determine if I want to have that bow...Like others have said sometimes a bow will come up for sale at half the cost of a new one and no waiting other then the delivery time ...Some bowyers are better bowyers then others and it shows in their work and can take longer cause they may work at a slower pace...I would rather have a bowyer take a few extra days to do a better job then rush my bow to meet a deadline and mess it up somehow...
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Now I think I understand your first question after going back and reading it...I thought you were asking if it really takes 6 months to build a bow and sorry I read it wrong Capt. Eddie but not sure all bowyers will work that way! I think some will work in the evenings on them and some whenever time allows ...
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Originally posted by capt eddie:
It never was and still not an issue with the time it takes for a project. But when I am told a time frame I take the person for their word. And if problems come up, and I question the time do not blow me off with a flip response. Tell me what is going on with me bow. It broke and I'm starting over, the dog chewed on the limb. Just dont keep me waiting withut an explanation.
Ah, I did not get that from your opening post. I agree.
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Yep,
Communication is a real key.
There doesn't really need to be a lot of communication after the details are ironed out.
But when things change, be it because the buyer changed his mind about something or the bowyer has some type of problem that affects the done date there should be lots of up front, honest, and timely communication.
We're all human here.
We all need to remember that.
Treat each other the way we wish to be treated and things will generally work out...maybe not the way we hoped for ( cause we always hope for the absolute best case scenario )
The bad eggs get thinned out eventually..especially in this fairly close knit community.
We ( both bowyers and buyers) just need to realize that a few bad posts can really mess up a bowyer's rep.
and we all need to think about if this problem we're having is really bad enough to tell the "news" about it.
Sometimes...though a buyer can just say he's having a problem with a bowyer ( without naming ) anyone and the bowyer pipes in and gets pretty defensive....anonymity gone..and things look worse..why not just respond to a guy timely and privately in the first place...?
Gotta realize we're all people typing behind this text....
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Originally posted by capt eddie:
Can someone tell me why there is such a long wait for a custom bow? Does it really take 6 months to build a bow. Are the bowyers that far behind on their orders? Are there that many bows ahead of your? If a bowyer has that many orders to fill, why do they not go up on the price of their bows so that they can make a good living and be able to get bows out in a reasonable length of time? Like 30 days. I would rather pay them a higher price and get the bow earlier. From start to finish if it takes 12 hours of real work to produce a quality bow why not charge $100 an hour and build one bow instead of charging $25 an hour and needing to sell and build 4 bows for the same money? Yes one bow cost $1200 and the other bows cost $300. More people can afford a $300 bow but now the bowyer most built three times as many. I think that in this day. There are people that would pay $1200 for a bow if they could get the bow in a reasonable length of time.
Originally posted by capt eddie:
Thanks to all for the replies. My post was not a complaint as much as a business question. As I have researched the subject and I did find out that the cost of the bow does not have alot to do with the lead times. As a matter of fact, The higher the cost usually ment a longer lead time. There must be plenty of people buying $100 to $1800 bows. I wonder if the one man, parttime operations would and could charge more for their bows and not have to work as much. Then they could get out a bow quicker. Be able to have their bows pay for insurance and retirement. I do not begrudge a bowyer making a good living doing what he loves and be able to support himself and retire. And if I did work for them I would like the same courtesy. But if you tell some people that your are charging them $75 to $100 an hour labor they would go elsewhere. Just check with a plumber, sheetmetal worker, or take your car back to the dealer for work. They have no problem putting up a big sign that shows their rate. Why not bowyers.
Originally posted by capt eddie:
Skitch:The bowyer could be the dealership and get that kind of money.
Sledge; My skewed estimation is that they deserve more out of their craft then living bow to bow. They would all like to retire someday with money in the bank.
daniel boon; You are right $1200 is very reasonable for a bow. And the $500 bow that some bowyer knocked out might offend some of our local bowyers. They might have just as much time and money in the same bow that is being sold elsewhere. They just have to work at other jobs for their retirement and insurance. The $1200 bowyer has that worked in the price. Good for them. I do not know where the idea come from that I am against bowyer in any way. As you can all see from the post. There are different feelings on this subject from within our ranks. I think that they deserve everything they can get for thier bows. I am not one of the labor forces that make minimum wages and I do want the products they can produce. This is not a cut to any bowyer. You all have my respect. I jst hope that they are able to stay in business for generations to come. Being able to do what they do for a good living is the only thing that is going to bribg young bowyers into the picture. If a young bowyers sees that they must have two jobs to be able to live selling $500 bows he will probably not stay in business long. But if he can sell $1200 bows he will be the future that traditional archery needs.
Originally posted by capt eddie:
That is probably the most annoying thing, is when a bowyer does not return email. Especially when they do it is from their Iphone. When they say it is all finished and will be mailed next week and next week never comes.
Originally posted by capt eddie:
How long do you wait, when they say it will be mailed in a couple of days, and it is 9 days later. At what point is it considered unproffessional and aggrevating. i draw the line at 9 days without a reason being give. But the check cleared the back weks ago. It has been getting sprayed and final coated twice now.
Originally posted by capt eddie:
yes that would be a good reason for the wait. But this has went on for 3 weeks now. Would you reply to a customer 3 times that "the limbs are beings sprayed and will be in the mail in a couple of days". I understand that things happen. But keep the customer informed of changes, or problems. Voicing this issue on a public forum will let my know if my exspectations are to high in this matter. And i have nothing to worry about, it happens all the time. I think someone else quoted that Bowyers are great artist and craftsmen, just eccentric at times and not good businessman.
Originally posted by capt eddie:
My current issue is with a bowyer that emailed on the June 15, that he finished the tiller on the limbs, will spray them an, and get them out next week. Then a week later an email that he is spraying the limbs and will get them out in a couple of days. A week later the same type of email, Spraying the limbs will get out in couple of days. Three times the same story. This post is not directed to hurt the bowyer or his business. I have tryed calling but only get a answering machine and no reply. Only he knows what is going on. Just a little communication may solve all of this.But he has my lifes blood of money for a set of limbs that I do not have. My first post was really in do conpare the two differant types of bowyers that i have researched. The Big money guys and the lesser priced.
You went from a generalization to a rant. I can understand your being upset with the way your current transaction is going and you have every right to be upset but not all bowyers are like that and I don't think your thread paints the picture most of us see when it comes to buying a custom made bow. Your second post says that you didn't start this thread as a complaint but as a business question... the last couple of posts say otherwise.
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So?
Not the first time a thread has changed directions a bit after a few weeks.
Sounds like you're trying to put the poster on trial here..why?
I like your signature by the way.
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No one on trial here and I thought my post/posts have been clear up till now. Maybe not. It just reads like the thread starter started this thread because of his bad experience... which would have been understandable if it was... but his writing reads like he is implying that the majority of bowyers exhibit the kind of behavior/ bad business practices that he is currently experiencing... words like "bowyers", "they" and "their" tends to cause people to lump all bowyers into the discussed subject. Catch what I'm sayin?
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My mistake in wording. In the beginning I did not understand the normal workings of being a bowyer. I am in construction and have deadlines on projects every day. I just wondered how bowyers can get so far behind and not make any more money then they do. Because of the hard work involved it both construction and bowyers, Not alot of people are going into either trade. I knew when i ordered this bow project that it would be 3 months per bowyer. That was not a problem. Three weeks ago when he said "in a couple days" Thats what I expected. Now he does not return calls or email. I would love to be hearing from him on this matter. He has time for posting here and other sites, but not the time to fill me in. I have only delt with this bowyer, and never had problems. I hope that there are not major problems in his life. Just let me know about my project.
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Hey Eddie, I really should apologize for calling you a whiner. i think if i got the same story about spraying limbs 3 times, in 3 weeks, I'd feel like i was getting the run around instead of the straight poop myself too.
But you really can't stereotype all bowyer's as being eccentric and poor businessmen even if it may be true in some cases.
I could give you a whole list of logical reasons how easy it is to get behind schedule that has nothing to do with the business part of it. That's not even mentioning personal problems..... Stuff happens....machines break down at inopportune moments, or some warranty issues pop up that always get 1st priority... it's endless..
I'm running a bit behind schedule myself, as much as i hate to admit it. Fortunately I've got a pretty good bunch of guys that are being patient with me, and good honest communication is a must.... i refuse to rush through a bunch of bows and lower my standards because I've had some issues develop. i really hate having to give excuses but there are only so many hours in the day.
i sincerely hope things work out OK for you. Kirk
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Eddie, I certainly agree with most of your posts and sentiments. One of my pet peeves is how much license that bowyers have been given and seems like it has become an acceptable thing.
I came into this from the construction business where not meeting deadlines was unacceptable and on larger construction jobs penalties were accessed for not meeting them. Excuses were unacceptable unless a change order was applicable.
A change order in this business could be as simple as Kirk described in communicating the time problem to the customer instead of lying and saying the bow is in the spray booth when it really isn't.
When a bowyer starts doing that then there is a very real reason to become fearful of the outcome and to question what is actually going on.
I certainly appreciate the bowers side too as I are one. We are all human and we all make mistakes/. When I have done that I have found that the truth is appreciated and there is not a better bunch of folks in the world than the customers I have had.
Hers's my take , I would rather the customer have a lower expectation on time of delivery than to be disappointed. When you deliver three months ahead of time most folks are thrilled. There are even exceptions to that though and I actually had to tell one guy that I would hang his bow on my rack until he wanted it delivered. He actually complained because I built his (custom) bow too fast and he became convinced that I had cut corners to do it. All without seeing the bow or shooting it.
That experience taught me to say this. I require six months but expect your bow anytime from two to four months out. That has worked pretty well.
Kirk has layed out how to properly handle the situation when a bowyer gets behind a bit.It is the ethical and moral way to do business and we should not expect or accept less than that.
God bless you all, Steve