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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: yukon chuck on August 03, 2012, 10:16:00 PM
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I want to gain some insight into something, from some of you Howard Hill buffs. I just recently started reading some of his writing, and watching some videos. Last night I watched Tembo. I was surprised to see that in the scenes which featured the kills of the Leopard and the Lion, it was very obvious that the animals were tethered for the shot. Also, on the Elephant kill while I could not discern any tether, something looked very odd about the Elephants behavior and reaction to the shots.
I am not looking to start a debate over right or wrong of this, i am just curious if any of you Hill buffs ever read any interviews with Howard, or perhaps writings of his where this issue was brought up.
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I don't remember seeing anything on the lion shot. The question I have over the leopard, it was not a cheetah, how could anyone predict that they could snare one that easy. As far as the shot in the film, leopards are nocturnal, it would be tough getting good enough light for the cameras they used. Also, there seems to be two different sequences involved, judging by the backgrounds, same with the elephant shots, keep an eye on the number and length of arrows in the back quiver and the change in the background trees.
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I noticed the scene sequences were odd too. Not just poor editing, but in my opinion clearly because of the tethering. My mistake, it was a Leopard. What struck me about the Elephant shots was that the Elephant winds up kind of backed up to the trees and almost seems entrapped.
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yes these animals were killed while retrained - disgusting - don't bother me with time and curcumstance. Lots of other stuff too contrived - makes me wonder if some of the stuff in the books are made up. Tell ya what though that was a tough dude who caught the leopard. :)
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I am a Howard Hill fan. I do believe honestly he did harvest alot of these animals if not all with the bow. Now, understanding the times, I do not attest that something was not done to allow a one time safari to happen on film. this has been beatem up before. for those who cann't understand the times, then do not watch any movie and or telivision show before 1980. Old adventure movies did this often, just keep in mind that this is what Tembo was and adventure movie. I could point some finger's at some other great bowhunters movies and what I see, but doesn't matter, it promotes and leads to people interest in archery that is what matters.
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We need to remember that in these times animals were props. Horses were actually tripped up, cattle were actually stampeded. Lots of animals were injured/died. That doesn't make it right, just different times and different beliefs. Today most of us wouldn't take a 50 yard shot, but back then, 50 yards was a short shot.
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Those films were produced by a film studio (Its been so long that I forgot which one) back in a day when people sure weren't Politically Correct and everything was a spectacle. Those were seen as exotic adventure films.
Those producers wanted to film a spectacle for a featurette, not a documentary or a hunting show.
They always wrangled animals and everything was planned and scripted. Documentary film didn't come about until the 1950s in England. Before then everything was staged.
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The lion, and leopard/cheetah were snared off screen and then tethered for the shot. The elephant on film was shot in the knees with a rifle so it wouldn't move for the camera.....back in the 50's you had to lug 60 pounds of noisy camera gear around for taking movies...considering that alot of films were shot indoors with painted scenery, this Tembo film was a great undertaking. Crude, yes...inhumane, maybe....great for getting generations of archers interested in Hillstyle longbows for life?....priceless.
those were the times...don't like it, don't watch any old movies and bury your head in the sand.
What's always mentioned, especially by Nagley fans, is the elephant shot while crippled.....interesting to note that no one ever brings up the fact that Hill shot two other elephants without handicapping them first, completely legit kills. Everyone always keys in on the negative stuff.
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It's pretty hard to strap one of those old school 16mm cameras to a helmet.....not to mention the guy cranking it!!! :D
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I don't know about the lion or the leopard shots but the elephant was shot in the leg with a rifle to keep it in place.
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Calling it your job don't make it right :)
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Imagine what Hill could have done if he did not to film everything.
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Yep, its all kinda unsavory ... but unfortunately it was more than likely a corporate decision based on the interests of entertainment and its dollar value. Doesn't excuse it at all ... but then I don't judge Saxton Pope on some of his shot choices either . It was a long time ago and in general most had a very different view of the outdoors, hunting and archery ... gladly ... we seem to do better today ... most of the time .
I am eternally thankful to Mr Hill for lighting a fire in the belly of so many archers ... in particular me with the wonderful scenes in Flynn's "Robin Hood" ...
Just as I am thankful to many other 'famous' archers who lit many other fires despite their somewhat questionable choices ... ie POD's , etc
But that was then , this is now
We know better now and i am thankful for it ... but that doesn't mean I don't remain in awe of some the yesteryear derring do , fabled or true .
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Hill shot two other elephants without handicapping them first, completely legit kills. [/QB]
Nate, was that with or without firearm back-up?
Could you also give me some more details - bow and arrow specs, how many arrows per elephant, distance travelled by each of the elephants after being arrowed, approximate time from first shot to when the elephants died and any other details you may have of these two kills.
Thanks.
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Dodger...alot of details in the book by Craig Ekin.
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Now i cant help but feel sorry for all the teathered englishmen in Robinhood..
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Originally posted by JParanee:
Calling it your job don't make it right :)
Shooting adolescent animals isn't right either(in my opinion), but people do it all of the time.
It irritates me when I see people post photos of spikes, small baby bucks and itty bitty does. I have my own personal standards for hunting. I pass up most of the deer I see.
I won't shoot young deer and I won't shoot does with yearlings following them. But not everyone does that.
It just depends on the person.
I think it may also be part of the Game & Fish Department's fault in a lot of nothern states that don't restrict the taking of small bucks.
Here in Arkansas you essentially have to wait until a buck is a six-point (has to have 3 tines on one side and at least one on the other side, which usually makes the buck a six point) and we have a lot of deer clubs in Arkansas that don't allow for their members to shoot anything smaller than an eight point.
If you want a healthy population then you need to have mature bucks and doe.
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My son is very conscience of taking care of nature. He has taught me a lot. I did not grow up learning nor did most people care about it 60 years ago. It was ignorance but not all. We knew if you cut all the trees on a step hill you would ruin the creeks. We did not recycle, no one did. So do I condem my parents for not teaching me all these things. Of course not. You can't throw rocks at those of the past because they lived with a different mindset. Just remember someone 60 years from now is going to be throwing them at you. Just as some of you through them at Howard, PETA throws them at you now for killing an animal and allowing it to bleed to death. Different mind set.
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All the Kills where legit, and then staged again to be filmed....
One of the film crew was killed by one of the elephants....
Gun back up or not, you stalk and kill an elephant with a bow and then get back to us....
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Sure there was some staging going on in these films and stories they were not done to be object lessons in ethics; they were done to dazzle and entertain! And camera crews are expensive-to say nothing of the fact you can't stalk effectively with 20 guys and equipment tagging along. Howard even said that.
When talking about the video of Howard shooting the Buffalo from horseback Howard tried that sequence many times, and he admits that he could not ride well enough to shoot the animal from a horse at full gallop so they monkeyed the film and did a marvelous job!
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When talking about the video of Howard shooting the Buffalo from horseback Howard tried that sequence many times, and he admits that he could not ride well enough to shoot the animal from a horse at full gallop so they monkeyed the film and did a marvelous job!
I have never heard that one, before. Where did this get revealed? Black and white film of that era and the splicing techniques of the day would make it nearly impossible.
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This topic always gets out of control, because people cann't put themselves in the times.Do you think other bowhunting and safarai movie's didn't do the following; Do you really think all the horses in the western's was unhurt? Do you think that all the animals used in movie's was treated nicely? Do you think that other animals was lured in from being kept on edge of starvation? Like now a days, is baiting legal? If you put out deer lure food or scent is that legal or ethical? If you make a bad shot on an animal and give up the trail in 3 or 4 hours is that ethically fine? Lets stop bickering about this, because all we will do is get worked up and upset and divide a camp of thought. None of us would do these things today and/or are more ethical than our other Archery brothers. So let us accept the bad things from our history and learn from them and move on.
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Come on, guys, give the old timers a break. What was normal in the past is taboo in our more "enlightened" society. Why, I can,t remember the last public flogging in this country. Boiling in oil has fallen into disfavor, too, although I might be in favor of restoring it for politicians.
The films were entertaining, and state of the art for the time.
You can't judge people of days gone by by our mores today.
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Got to agree with Toddster & Scattershot. It was decades past.
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This is interesting to me. Many have jumped on one side or another, and are ready for a fight. As I said in my post, I wasn't looking to debate wrong or right, or judge. I was curious to know if Hill or anybody associated with the movie might have ever talked about how they went about filming what they filmed, and the process and thinking behind it all. A lot of input here but I was hoping some of the hardcore Hill buffs could point to comments made or written by Howard.
I didn't realize this is apparently a scab I shouldn't have picked at. In hindsight, I guess I should have realized.
My apologies.
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Thanks Nate. I have been meaning to get myself a copy of Craig's book and will order one soon.
Pavan, if I recall correctly, Peter Stecher touched upon this subject in his book Legends In Archery.
Yukon Chuck, whilst I am a neophyte Hill guy myself, I do not think you have anything to apologise for.
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Yukon, mate no apologies necessary !
As a bit of a Hill buff , ditto Swinehart etc I have never read anything stated by Hill re the "tether" ...
Bill Negley writes interestingly on it ... also covering Swinehart's elephants but again there are differing stories there too ......
Anywhoo ... Swinehart is still Imho , the coolest dude in modern archery ......
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I agree Ben. That photo of Swinehart facing off with the Cape Buffalo is the greatest in archery.
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I'd love to see that pic. Can you post it here?
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Some things just can not be brought up without a debate breaking out--I think this would be one of the obvious ones.
Different times-different way of thinking. Just a heads-up; Pope and Young took long shots, the Tompson brothers shot egrets and herons, and native Americans drove herds of bison over cliffs.
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Let him rest in peace, you cant change what they did back then. its no different in today's modern filming, its about the money and the return.If he wanted the financial backing then he had to do some of it their way, just like today. I dont think many movies are at all the real deal its entertainment(then and now). I can say I will never hunt Oregon or Washington due to those Vampires living in that area.Sleep in peace Howard I liked the movie.JMHO
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Back then in thier way of thinking shooting that film the way they did was completely ethical.
Today we hold a different standard. It's called advancement. Now I admit some advancements are really a step backwards i.e. mechanical archery things. I believe if Mr. Hill had thought it was unethical he wouldn't have participated. He had alot to loose. As has been said i.e. a different time and a different way of thinking.
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Yup many animals were tied up and i think I heard the elephant was knee capped with a rifle before hand. Not as fan of his videos and they are just so corny.
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I am seeing quite a bit a unprovable speculation here. It is difficult enough to shoot an African animal, somehow thinking that it is so easy to snare so many of them is mind boggling. I am waiting for someone to say that Hill and Ned Frost snared the animals that were shot in The Last Wilderness.
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Originally posted by lpcjon2:
I dont think many movies are at all the real deal its entertainment(then and now).
Now there is a good thought.
I see way too many people willing to get their history from tv and the movies. Neither is trustworthy for unbiased facts (or sometimes even biased facts!), and sometimes I'm even leary of PBS documentaries.
It's all about ratings number of viewers.
Guy
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Amen Guy!!!!!
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If you watch the movie Grizzly! came out in the early 70"s their was a real dead skined deer used in the movie. That would never happen now. just a note at the end of the movie that says no animals were harmed in the filming of this movie.