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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: K2 on December 21, 2012, 09:47:00 AM
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I am looking at getting a new 3 pc TD longbow and am trying to decide on a limb core. Which would be smoother? advantages and disadvantages of each. Thanks for any help you can offer. Ken
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You'd be hard pressed to tell any difference in smoothness in draw between Foam and Bamboo cores.
The difference lies in the the mass weight of the limb is much less using foam than bamboo, and you'll get higher performance using Foam.
The reason for the similarity in smoothness is that both materials are homogenous. the consistency of the core woods make much more difference than most people realize. Then again some of us measure our losses and gains with precision scales and chronographs that wouldn't be that noticeable to the average archer.
The down side to Foam is the significantly higher pitch tone you get from the limbs. it's not any louder than a bamboo limb, but the tone pitch is different. especially using carbon.
The up side to it it that it is unaffected by expansion or contraction caused by moisture content (MC levels) and temperature changes.
Kirk
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Interesting post. It's hard to believe that foam can tollerate the constant flexing generated by drawing and firing. Does anyone know if this foam was developed for use in bow building or is it used elsewhere. I understand how epoxies can bond it to other materials but its amaizing to me that the foam can hold up especially at the fades.
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I agree with Kirk about the sound of foam. I don't know if it is louder or not but it definitely annoys me enough that I will not buy a bow with foam core limbs. You should shoot one with foam just to make sure you can stand the sound of it.
Bisch
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I've shot a few bows with the foam core limbs from different bowyers. They do have not only a different sound, but I also noticed a different feel from the foam vs the bamboo core. I'm probably old and set in my ways, but the bamboo (IMHO) is more user friendly.
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Originally posted by Kirkll:
You'd be hard pressed to tell any difference in smoothness in draw between Foam and Bamboo cores.
The difference lies in the the mass weight of the limb is much less using foam than bamboo, and you'll get higher performance using Foam.
The reason for the similarity in smoothness is that both materials are homogenous. the consistency of the core woods make much more difference than most people realize. Then again some of us measure our losses and gains with precision scales and chronographs that wouldn't be that noticeable to the average archer.
The down side to Foam is the significantly higher pitch tone you get from the limbs. it's not any louder than a bamboo limb, but the tone pitch is different. especially using carbon.
The up side to it it that it is unaffected by expansion or contraction caused by moisture content (MC levels) and temperature changes.
Kirk
That's interesting. I wonder if humidity levels significantly affect the performance of glass laminated bows with bamboo core.
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You live in Colorado. My question would be "How does it hold up in cold temps?"
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I've been shooting/hunting with a pair of Bob Morrison's MAX I limbs the second half of this season and my wife has as well. One of the things I really like about them is how quiet they are. I've shot Borders with wood cores and they were much louder than Bob's foam. One reason I ordered a set for myself. The other is how quick and stable they are....and that I can get limbs short enough to give a 56" hunting bow on my DAS riser. From what I have read there are different types of foam and that may be a factor. In addition it seems to me that limb design is an important factor. Most of my life my bows have been maple cores and some bows have been very easy to quiet down and others seem to resist all efforts to get them quiet. Design must have something to do with it...as well as string construction and material.
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I have noticed the noise level with foam cores. With all due respect, if you can hear the bow easily even from a distance like I could, the bow is loud, some would even say noisy.
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I have and have had both. I've also had a limb failure in both. As to noise, IMO that's in the tuning.
I have a foam cored carbon Shrew that I have set up that is as quiet as any bow I've ever shot.
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Kirk built me a 64" Sasquatch T/D recurve with foam cores and triple carbon limbs..no veneers.
When I first got it and shot the bow without anything on the string I was a little concerned about quieting it down. Once I put Cat Whiskers and a Boa Two Point Quiver on it, the bow is quieter than any bow I've ever shot.
I shot at about a 150" or so buck the other day at 15steps. He was walking real slow broadside coming through some tall green-briar. Some of the vines where up around his heart area and I think I over compensated. Shot right over his back. The buck never even flinched or broke stride. Just walked right on off like he was going. So the bow must be pretty quiet.
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I've had both. Never noticed any difference in noise. My Morrison ilf carbon foam was very smooth, felt a couple of pounds lighter than it really was. May have to get another one some day.
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'Who' is more important than 'what' as is usually the case, frankly if you are shooting a substantial arrow and the bow is tuned noise should not be a problem regardless of material.
It comes down to 'who' made the bow and your satisfying your own personal preference; the material won't make the bow.
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bjorn has it. Design seems far more important than material for just about every measure of bow quality (speed, smoothness, noise, etc).
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I have never tried foam limbs, that being said I have tried carbon and found it to be too abrupt for me, I could shoot it very well but didn't think the lack of smoothness was worth it, this was my opinion.
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Just as a point of reference...I got my DAS riser about 7 years ago. For all that time until recently I have shot nothing but Korean Winex limbs. They are carbon/foam...my first at using anything that didn't use B 50 string material. I have yet to find set of limbs of any kind on any type of bow that is as quiet as that set of limbs. The Morrison's are right there with them. I really think that design and experience with the materials and bow making is the difference. Longbows are a whole different ball game, I think. But I am not a longbow shooter so cannot make too many comments on them...so I won't.
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I have a set of foam core limbs right now, I had a set before and sold them. I have many bows with bamboo cores and I have to admit it's my favorite choice for a limb core. Foam is good but the feel, or what ever you call it of bamboo works for me! As far as noise.......that can be fixed in any bow!!
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I had a set of foam cored longbow limbs. They were not "loud" but had a different sound "pitch" if you will. I prefer bamboo. Don't think I could get use to that high pitch. I have never had a bow I couldn't quiet. Some just take more work.
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Good maple is my first choice. Then foam, then actionboo. Kirk is making action maple and it looks like the ticket. I guess I have to get my saw out and cut some lams and glue up some action maple or I am going to be behind the curve. My take is that the homogenous quality of foam and actionboo are relatively same. Foam is lighter as Kirk stated and completely impervious to moisture which in my opinion make it a better than actionboo for hunting conditions.
I really love maple cores though because it is light and strong and makes a very fast limb. It lacks the homogenous quality of the other two unless you get fairly verticle cut with no weak spots. Hard to do . Making it into action maple makes it homogenous though and would eliminate any fault I can see as long as the bow is completely sealed against humidity or moisture.
God bless you all and Merry Christmas, Steve
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I have had two bows that I have had both foam cores and boo cores. Exact same limb design and same poundage. Hands down I'd go with the foam from my experience. With that said every limb design is different and in some limbs it may not make a difference but for a mere $30 addition its a no brainer for me.
Smoother and faster in both cases and the foam wasn't louder just a different sound at the shot.
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Where can you get foam core for 30.00? I can't buy the material for even close to that for a bow.
God bless you all, Steve
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Steve,
At Zipper it is a $30.00 up charge over bamboo.
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I'm thinking The "foam" used in bow limbs is a Syntactic foam..I copied the following from wikipedia..
Main article: Syntactic foam
This section does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (August 2012)
A special class of closed-cell foams is known as syntactic foam, which contains hollow particles embedded in a matrix material. The spheres can be made from several materials, including glass, ceramic, and polymers. The advantage of syntactic foams is that they have a very high strength-to-weight ratio, making them ideal materials for many applications, including deep-sea and space applications. One particular syntactic foam employs shape memory polymer as its matrix, enabling the foam to take on the characteristics of shape memory resins and composite materials; i.e., it has the ability to be reshaped repeatedly when heated above a certain temperature and cooled. Shape memory foams have many possible applications, such as dynamic structural support, flexible foam core, and expandable foam fill.
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I like my foam core limbs they deal with changing weather a lot better the the bambo core limbs that I have.
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Atatarpm, could you be more specific? How do they deal with changing weather better, and is there anything specific that makes the foam core limbs stand out above 'standard' limbs. Are the limbs that you are comparing of equal length, draw weight, and design?
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No offense meant atatarpm but at my hunting distances I can't tell the difference in different weather conditions between 'foam' and non-foam limbs. I think the Olympians at 70 meters can.
I have had several foam core limbs as well as the normal cores, some sounded noisier than others. Like Kirk said they have a higher pitch. Usually just increase size of the hush puppy and that takes care of it. Different string materials/diameters also can have an effect on there sound. I may be wrong,and maybe some of the bowyers can correct me, but I think felt smoothness is a function of limb design/length and build quality more than core material.
So to answer your question it depends on the limb maker, design and craftsmanship. I have foam cored limbs I love as well as bamboo and maple ones. Some love foam some hate it. You need to try it out for yourself. If you are into as much speed as you can get then foam is the way to go.
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Gotta believe the fiberglass does the work in any case. Foam is lighter but I would think wood would last longer. I have seen foam break down but never protected wood. Just my opinion.
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Two questions
What is action maple or action boo?
And how are my wood limbs absorbing m
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Sorry premature post
How do wood limbs absorb moisture when they are sealed with some what looks to be varnish?
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Much like most other things with bow building there is no one size fits all. Foam is not for every design just as carbon is not for every design.
The only time I have noticed any real different sound from foam is when the cores are deep. It does not like to be in a deep cored limb. For Zipper bows foam is a perfect fit with the carbon we use. The carbon we use is stiffer than glass so it does not need as much core. The foam we use has a softer feeling draw than bamboo. That makes it a perfect fit with the carbon we use. The softer feeling draw of the foam kind of helps cancel out the stiffer feeling draw of the carbon.Hopefully this makes since. Sometimes I'm not the best at explaining things.
Let me say this again. Foam does not like to be in a deep cored limb.I have seen no durability issues with foam. I'll take foam over bamboo any day.That is when the design is favorable to the use of foam.
Bill
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I don't doubt there are benefits to the foam regarding changing moisture and weather. However bows made 50 years ago with maple are holding up just fine.
I had only one set of limbs with foam core. I didn't care for their sound. I didn't notice a difference in smoothness and performance. I sold them and replaced them with bamboo. I have bows with maple, yew, actionboo, actionwood, and bamboo. Smoothness, performance, stability, and quietness, IMO comes from the bows length and design.
Captain, 'Action' wood I believe is just very thin laminated wood (stacked and glued wood) Action wood provides very consistent limb cores.
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Ok here's the story as it happened to me; with a day off in Mt I was shooting ends of three out of two bows one with bamboo core limbs and the other with foam carbon limbs. As luck would have it I sent a flyer down range that snaked in the grass while I was looking for it a weather front came through that dropped the temp by 15 degrees and changed the humidity. When I got back to shooting and pick up the bamboo core bow I noticed how stiff it felt and how the cast had changed in the bow. Then I picked up the carbon foam bow expecting the same thing and to my surprise there was no change in the bows draw or cast. It still sent the arrows to the target with the same authority as it did before the weather moved in.
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Katman nontaken sir I love the discussion sir. Thank you Ric
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Another point to consider is that all bamboo is not equal. If the bowyer choose a very clean, low in nodes form of edge laid action bamboo it should act as a fairly homogenous core, but if it was a flat sawn piece with numerous nodes you can get very weak spots and an increased chance of failure.
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I may be wrong but I dont see how your limbs could be effected that substantially if they are finished in fullerplast or thunderbird.
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Thanks Ric, could it be that the shooting break and drop in temps got your muscles a little stiff and loosened up with the first shots with the boo limbs? Just thinking out loud.
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I have several of both.....I like bamboo.
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Could be Katman it took me about 20 minutes to find my snaker and the bamboo core was the first bow that I picked up, but I should add that even with that much time off on indoor ranges I have not noticed that much difference between the two of them. Ric
P.S. any thoughts you have most certinanly will be thought of and listened too.
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I have 2 Zipper sxt the foam core is 3 lbs
lighter and is faster. The deer did not seem
to notice the limbs being any louder than
the bamboo core.