Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Hummer3T on September 04, 2013, 01:26:00 PM
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I was reading several threads and read a comment regarding P and Y and Lighted nocks several times.
I guess I'm dumb, but I just cant figure this out for myself. What is the advantage to lighted nocks and why won't Pope and young allow animals taken with then to be entered.
I have only used lighted nocks a couple times, but not in hunting situations. I can't see any advantage except for after the shot, RE: seeing where your shot hit and finding your arrow. You have already taken the shot so where is the advantage! Arrows can not be shot like tracer bullets, or at least, I can't shoot that fast.
Just pondering, sorry for the rant, just don't understand them allowing all the compound gear, but not these.
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It is like a gateway drug LOL!
Keeping all electronics out of the bow arrow combo is simpler and those nocks while cool are certainly not needed.
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I agree Hummer. Where's the advantage ? If it helps a hunter see his shot in low light or find his arrow what's the problem ? No disrespect to P&Y but I leave my tape measure in the tool box. I don't need to measure antlers to figure out whether or not I've killed a trophy. TonyZ.
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Well then, P and Y should go back to only supporting traditional hunting, no range finders, no flashlights to recover game, etc........ I am fine with this, I wish some organizations would stick to their morals. It seems P and Y allow allot of technology.
I guess it is the little battery in the device causing the issue!
I always wanted to try one of those traditional lighted nocks.
One of those fire arrows.
Sorry still ranting... I guess I should just shut up, not big on entry into those measuring clubs anyways, did it once, likely never again.
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Most would agree that a lighted nock by itself offers little advantage other than it is easier to find your arrow or see a hit when lighting is not good. Some say that compound shooters out west that often shoot as far as 100 yards can use the lighted nock to help them "sight in" on game they are shooting at. "Ooops, just over the back...need to lower my hold a little..." I have mixed opinions on the lighted nock but vote "no" for its use because permitting its use establishes a precedence for permitting electronics on arrows. How about electronic tracking devices inside or on the arrow shaft to help you find shot animals? Wouldn't that be helpful/good to help reduce wounding losses? Others, however would argue that it would encourage people to take bad shots as they now have a homing device in the arrow to help find poorly hit animals. With regards to the compound and some accessories such as release aids...that train has left the station and there is no going back on those items.
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The Advantage Is In Their Being Able To Say "No Electronics On Bow Or Arrow". ItIsJustTheirRule. That's All. Their Game, Their Rule.
Chuckc
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What JohnV says X2...
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I wish I had kept the ballot paperwork so I had the exact wording of the pro argument, but it basically said that some members feel that the club is run by old time traditional archers who are against any kind of technological advancement in archery equipment. The pro argument also said this might keep someone from joining and entering an a trophy animal.
I got to wonder if the pro side is more interested in numbers than fair chase. True, there is strength in numbers, but there is also more money.
I've been thinking about withdrawing my two Sitka Blacktail entries and canceling my membership. I imagine P & Y is primarily a compound club now any.
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We live in an interesting time. The electronics revolution has been going on for about 40 years. I remember being in awe when I got to move from a slide rule to an HP 35 calculator. Then personal computers. Then portable phones. Now tablets, smart phones, GPS, trail cameras and a whole bunch of stuff that has changed the way we work, play and communicate.
I think part of the problem is the 'written rules' are about 10 years behind the rate of change of the technology. Historical measures of 'good' or 'bad' don't apply in quite the same literal way they used to. Here's an interesting example. I won't name the state or the game warden, just sharing the conversation I overheard.
Basically, two gentlemen were having a lively discussion about whether or not the use of walkie talkie types of two way radios should be legal to use while hunting. The debate took place at a deer check in station, so when the game warden showed up for his routine check, he was asked to join in. He replied they were still illegal, but if one needed to speak to his or her buddies, they should feel free to use their cell phone since there were no written rules regarding cell phones. He laughed and said to be careful and not use any cell with 'push to talk' capability since that would be considered a two way radio.
In a very serious vein, he went on to say the local DNR was struggling with all the new tools such as trail cameras, rangefinders, cell phones, lighted sights, lighted nocks, etc. Which of these would eliminate 'fair chase' standards that have been used for years to assess hunting options. He felt strong arguments could be made, pro and con for each of the new 'tools'. Cell phones can be used like radios so moving folks around to intercept deer could be easily done and violate 'fair chase'. But they were also a great aid in safety and are used many times each year in the areas he patrols to help folks who are injured, sick, lost, or having trouble pulling a deer out of the woods. He likes trail cameras for the population studies he does (more reliable than the postal carrier talking about the number of deer seen while delivering mail), but he could also see trail cameras taking some of the 'woodmanship' or basic scouting skills out of the equation.
I think groups like P&Y are well motivated, but their 'absolute' rules can come across as arbitrary since the principles used are not clearly stated or understood. Saying no electronics on a bow or arrow draws a pretty wide line in the sand. I understand saying no to lighted nocks is keeping with this rule, and any variation gives rise to the concern about moving to a slippery slope and harming fair chase. But I also understand it can help in determining how good a shot was, and aid in locating the down deer. There is a big difference in lighted nocks vs. lighted sights, to me. Others may may not see the same distinction.
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What Hummert says x10, absolutely absurd! :knothead:
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A lot of people including myself feel that lighted nocks as with lighted sights would allow and perhaps encourage people to shoot after legal hunting hours. I wish the P&Y club would separate themselves from B&C and adopt their own rules, especially when it comes to scoring and get back to what hunting with archery equipment is all about. Both Pope and Young would be dissatisfied with the direction the club has gone.
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Thats why I always shoot little critters and let all the big ones walk. I dont have a single worry about what Pope and young says. :knothead:
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I'm a meat hunter. I just happened to shoot two that qualified for the book. Haven't entered anything since 1987. Not sure why I'm still a member. :dunno:
Nicely put, VictoryHunter.
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Awesome Izzy. :D :D :D
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Glenn St Charles must be rolling over in his grave .... while we all enjoy technology in our daily lives there are principles that should remain as the founders originally set them out.
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The P&Y can do what they want as far as I am concerned.
The problem for me lies with state agencies looking towards P&Y to set the standard. That is how Idaho ended up with 80% letoff.
Is there really anything the industry has come out with in the last 15 or so years that we have NEEDED? They are not inventing this crap to help us. :banghead:
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The P&Y can do what they want as far as I am concerned.
The problem for me lies with state agencies looking towards P&Y to set the standard. That is how Idaho ended up with 80% letoff.
Is there really anything the industry has come out with in the last 15 or so years that we have NEEDED? They are not inventing this crap to help us. :banghead:
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not a problem for me unless P&Y start a doe category :bigsmyl:
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Pope and Young club make the rules cause it's their club. Don't like it, don't join. I have a couple book animals, never entered cause I don't care.
The issue as I see it is where does it end? To me lighted nocks are another gadget. Everyone says they make it easier to see the hit. Key word there to me is "easier". Why does everyone want to make everything easier. What's the challenge in that? Want to see the hit: use a brighter color fletch or don't shoot when it's too dark to see the arrow. See, I just made it easier.
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Illegal in Colorado, I have no problem with the no electronics on bow or arrow.
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Like every club they have there clicks that make the rules. That is why I dropped out most of them. Only regular members can vote. I shoot what I want as long as it is legal in the state I'm hunting in. They are the only rules I follow.
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My personal club scores as bigun's or tastyun's. Bigun's can also be tastyun's its very complicated.
Rob
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A lighted nock is advantage but a bow with a 80% or whatever letoff and sights is not?? :laughing:
Wheew that's a good one!
Eric
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X2 on the letoff issue! Locking/drawing aids aren't allowed but a holding weight of 15 lbs is acceptable. :biglaugh:
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For me,
Lighted nocks are a big advantage for recovering hogs in South Carolina swamps. I will put an arrow with a lighted nock on about an hour before dark. It is legal to hunt hogs after dark in SC. There is No advantage in aiming. Plus you can Not see where you hit the animal because the light path of the arrow distorts your vision where you hit. But with multiple hogs coming & scattering at the sound of the bow shot, you Will get a good idea where your hog ran. It is a tool to help in game recovery. I also track wounded hogs in the dark with a 40 cal Glock as back up to my bow. When I'm after guys like this in the dark & swamp, I want some help in putting them in the freezer not in P&Y. JMHO...tippit
(http://images3a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp733%3C9%3Enu%3D32%3A4%3E%3B87%3E672%3EWSNRCG%3D3783%3B8976%3B32%3Cnu0mrj)
Visual hog recovery with just lighted nock...
(http://images5a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp63547%3Enu%3D32%3A4%3E%3B87%3E672%3EWSNRCG%3D378%3A7845%3C%3A32%3Cnu0mrj)
(http://images5a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp63585%3Enu%3D32%3A4%3E%3B87%3E672%3EWSNRCG%3D3789648%3A6932%3Cnu0mrj)
(http://images5a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp635%3B%3B%3Enu%3D32%3A4%3E%3B87%3E672%3EWSNRCG%3D378%3A786%3A4832%3Cnu0mrj)
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I have never shot a lighted nock but I will be trying this season.
I don't use trail cams because I don't think it is fair chase. Don't use 80% let off for the same reason. P&Y is not a factor in my life in any way but a one size fits all is really dumb and as an ethical hunter my goal is to find the animal after a hit. Using as a ranging device is not a goal of a recurve shooter since for me I am inside 20 yards or no shot happens in the first place.
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Why would I need a lighted nock? Because I'm blind in one eye, but I can still hit bullseyes all day long. It's hunting that arrow down in the brush that I need help with. If I couldn't make a clean shot, I'd just hang it up, but I can. What I have problems with is that peripheral vision to hunt down the arrow if I miss. Chasing a kill would certainly be helpful as well. I'm after coyote most of the time, not deer. Dead dark when I'm hunting. Completely legal where I am, and we get asked to do it constantly by the game wardens.
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I would like to apologize for drifting away from the subject with my comments.
There are some reasonable arguments for the use of lighted nocks. My hackles were raised with the wording of the pro argument from P&Y, which extended way beyond the issue at hand.
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i think a line has to be somewhere, and no electronics on a bow/arrow is a good thing. If ya dont agree than dont enter or support P&Y and then dont get your little asterik that it was a trad kill.. (if they are still doing that) i really dont see a true need in lighted nocks.
as traditional hunters we have the Compton archives
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What is the big deal to get in Pope & Young? You know what it is and it just cost money to enter.
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Originally posted by Craig:
Like every club they have there clicks that make the rules. That is why I dropped out most of them. Only regular members can vote. I shoot what I want as long as it is legal in the state I'm hunting in. They are the only rules I follow.
Same here. Along with scents, baits, calls,etc...its all subjective. Do what makes you happy. I could care less what some club or forum member thinks as long as I am true to myself and hunt ethically and legally.
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Originally posted by TSHOOTER:
Originally posted by Craig:
Like every club they have there clicks that make the rules. That is why I dropped out most of them. Only regular members can vote. I shoot what I want as long as it is legal in the state I'm hunting in. They are the only rules I follow.
Same here. Along with scents, baits, calls,etc...its all subjective. Do what makes you happy. I could care less what some club or forum member thinks as long as I am true to myself and hunt ethically and legally. [/b]
Well said. :thumbsup:
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More 'evolving primitive weaponry'. The definition of an oxymoron. The state DNR's need to put a stop to this stuff. Can't use them, no one will buy them.
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I can see the debate though, lighted nocks not Ok, but a trail cam that I can pattern a deer to the minute it will appear on an early season feeding pattern??? Makes no sense to me what they allow yet something that actually does not give an advantage(lighted nock) is not allowed! I hunt within the law for where and what state I am hunting, thats it. I will not enter any animal I kill in any record book. I do it for me and no one else. I will have it mounted out of respect for that animal. Shawn
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I agree with what Shawn stated. I don't know why some things are allowed,but others aren't. I like hunting with a longbow or recurve,but with the bows that are glued up with epoxies,cnc machined broadheads,carbon arrows
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Shawn your take on it is pretty much exactly mine too. If you start thinking too hard not much of it makes sense in today's 'modern' world. I don't and won't enter any animals I shoot but I have some mounted ones in my house. If someone made lighted nocks illegal here I'd quit using them except to shoot at targets because they're so much fun. Everyone has to draw their own personal limitations. Rick.
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The problem with most regulations and guidelines is they don't/can't keep up with technological change. For that reason, some of what's legal isn't necessarily ethical. Regardless, folks can rationalize their use of any gadget or behavior. Sure do get their undies in a bundle when their own ox is being gored.
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I love my Nockturnals. It worked perfectly last night and ended right at the end of my blood trail from a large doe. I shot the doe an hour before dark but after dark it helped pinpoint where she was in the thick stuff, dead. I don't care what the record books say, Im not entering them anyway.
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If technical things keep going like they have been, it won't be too long before you will be able to get a GPS fix on an animal you shoot. Would that be bad? It wouldn't help you to make the shot or stalk the animal, but would mean that almost all game would be recovered, other than animals with minor wounds that will probably heal by themselves anyway.
Then it becomes an interesting ethical consideration for P&Y: do they go with tradition at the expense of lost game, or do they sacrifice tradition to increase the recovery rate of shot animals?
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Where do we draw the line on equipment? and why?
a lot of modern things used today, I'll just go hunting (buy the laws per state) and enjoy life.
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Originally posted by elkken:
Glenn St Charles must be rolling over in his grave .... while we all enjoy technology in our daily lives there are principles that should remain as the founders originally set them out.
X2
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Pope and Young has already let to much technology in when I was a official Measurer I had a guy come in that have never hunted with a bow before he killied 400 point bull Elk it makes wonder if he didn't have all the technology stuff if he would of even picked up a bow. I switch to Tradiional gear back in 2009 it made me realize just how much shooting I did than hunting.