Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Pine on November 14, 2013, 06:26:00 PM
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I am not being critical and it doesn't mater how or what you shoot .
That being said do you think that Traditional Archery is becoming to High Tech ?
What I mean is , some try to eek out a little more speed , some of the newer bow designs look like they came out of star wars .
I will add that I don't shoot a self bow and I do shoot a glass boo lamination so I am kinda in the middle with this . I prefer B-55 string over B-50 but I don't like the way my bows feel with the HIGH SPEED , LOW DRAG materials that are out there .
So I am just asking if you think it is getting carried away , just fine or look forward the next latest and greatest thing ?
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Well, your motto at the bottom of your posts pretty much says it all for me.
I think we'll all find our niche. I think that since we're mainly interested in trad archery, you don't have to worry about us becoming too high tech....although if there were an arrow insert that would make it show up on my GPS when I shoot it into high grass, I would be tempted.
Seriously, as long as we continue to respect various classes of shooters, from primitive to open, I think we'll be fine.
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Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNkBcWSaklc
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I define traditional archery as a type of bow with a riser and 2 limbs (materials can be carbon, foam, wood, fiberglass, whatever) drawn by hand using a glove, tab, nonmechanical release like a thumb ring or leather strap, or bare fingers shooting an arrow shaft with fixed points no mechanicals. What you choose to use personally for arrow materials or style broadhead (as long as it's a fixed blade) doesn't make a difference to me. For me personally I prefer glass laminated d/r longbow (My current bow has a carbon strip in the limb as well) and carbon arrows for the most part and cut on contact broadheads. I prefer to shoot carbon because in the long run they last longer than aluminum or wood usually so I can come out a little bit cheaper, than buying really good matched quality shafts, stain, finish, etc. I'm not going to trash anyone who may like the performance gain of these bows built with all carbon and foam limbs. I don't shoot them simply because I like the look of wood underneath clear fiberglass. There is nothing wrong in my opinion to advance bow designs and materials as long as there are still bows out there that appeal to people who like self bows or maybe a Hill style bow. I'll end with this though if given a choice between the bows of their actual time and modern traditional bows what do you think ancient peoples would use?
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I think trad archery is more an attitude than the equipment used. Granted, most would agree, me included, that anything other than a stick/string/arrow shot with fingers isn't trad. If it fits into that definition though, I don't think the materials matter much. It becomes a matter of preference. As far as appearance, some of the old composite bows used throughout history could have some pretty radical shapes. I'm in the same boat as you. I shoot a laminated recurve but don't want to go the foam core or carbon route. Fiberglass and wood or boo cores for me. I want to get a longbow but plan to get a laminated R/D when I do, so still not extremely primitive. I think for anybody to judge others that don't shoot a self bow as not trad enough and then carry their self bow to the woods in a modern pickup then post pictures of their kill to a website with their iPhone/droid/laptop or whatever is kinda silly. Not trying to upset any of the self bow guys or and I have a lot of respect for you guys, especially those of you that build your own, and I'd love to give it a try one day. Just giving my thoughts on the matter.
Matt Toms
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I apparently posted while James was posting as well and want to clarify when I said I don't want to go the carbon route. I was referring to carbon in the bows but I do shoot carbon arrows for the same reasons that he listed.
Also, I would like to say that I work with a guy from Kentucky and he has some Amish friends who ride a horse, buggy, or walk to where they are hunting with a homemade Selfbow then don't even take any pictures of the deer they kill. If one of them were to tell me I'm not trad enough, I'd simply hang my head in shame.
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Would that be the traditional Star Trek or the more modern, updated, hi tech Star Trek???
:D
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I agree it's all attitude. I used to muzzle load. I think a nice muzzleloader like a nice bow is a work of art. My last muzzleloader I was able to exchange it for free for a new one. Seemed like a good idea at the time. I got it in the mail,took one look at that black plastic contraption with factory scope mount, cleaned it up and put it back in the box. Made the decision of going bow only pretty easy. My bear Tamerlane looked pretty crazy when I first seen it too.
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It is interesting how Trad shooters seem to be more flexible over the various ways of getting it done . The mechanical shooters seem to be more arrogant if you will , most of them seem to think there setup is the only way to go . Kinda sad really . The Trad Gang members for the most part are more friendly and respect each other . And it is true that a Native American 200 yrs ago would just give all his possessions in trade for a modern Longbow or Recurve with aluminum or carbon arrows . :archer2:
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Nope, not getting carried away as long as one has the choice of how far he/she wants to take it, from selfbow made only with hand tools to the latest innovations.
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Not too high tech at all really. Stick, string, fixed heads, manual release, (and for me personally no sights) that's general enough parameters for me. I own both a bamboo backed selfbow and wood arrows AND things like a triple carbon Centaur and a triple carbon glass riser Habu..SO..I like to think those bows are trad.
Personally, I think its nice to muse on this topic some, BUT with the constant fight against the tide of contraptions being shot and deer assassination out there, and things like electronic OZONE generators to kill scent while on stand, I think its more productive and perhaps easier to to discuss and disagree/agree upon what is NOT trad vs. what IS.
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Good topic Graps. Here's food for thought:
The most traditional aspect of mankind is to improve, advance, evolve and change every aspect of all things we humans do. It's been going on since our brains could think and reason...and that's a long time before the first bow ever got strung. Advancements in archery tackle (and bowhunting gear) are a logical extension of man's traditional intrinsic desire to find a better way to do things.
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Kevin Dill has it right.
Not too many years ago, mass produced laminated bows were considered radical by some, and were the reason Fred Bear and Nels Grumley parted company.
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Like anything else you can make it be what you desire. For me the ultimate challenge has been to hunt with as primitive gear I can accurately use. That's not everyone's choice though. As traditional archery has gained more of a following there is room for companies to market more items to make more money to attract more customers. How well do you think traditional archery would grow if everyone was forced to use a selfbow with stone tipped reed shafts ? There is plenty room for everyone to enjoy the sport in their own definition.
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I would not worry about or apologize for what a bow or arrow is composed of. Use what you like and what works for you.
You know traditional and/or primitive archery when you see it.
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Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
Good topic Graps. Here's food for thought:
The most traditional aspect of mankind is to improve, advance, evolve and change every aspect of all things we humans do. It's been going on since our brains could think and reason...and that's a long time before the first bow ever got strung. Advancements in archery tackle (and bowhunting gear) are a logical extension of man's traditional intrinsic desire to find a better way to do things.
Kevin Dill for president! :clapper: You got my vote on this one... Nicely worded.
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Nope. Trad shooting is about a skill set and way of thinking. Newer materials don't fundamentally change that, they just offer us more options in the equipment we use.
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I don't think it's getting too high tech. Every culture has used the best materials and technology to make the best bows.
The English used Yew, the Koreans made a horn composite bow, and so on.
Some guys are happy with a selfbow and obsidian points, and I love my "modern" fiberglass and wood reflex longbow.
I think we all respect the skill, discipline and commitment required of a traditional archer, IMHO.
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Live and let die.
A stick and a string is "Higher Tech" than a spear and atlatl, is more tha a stone tipped spear, is more than a fire hardened tip.....
To each his own.
American Indians took advantage of every innovation they could get their hands on, that's part of the reason they defeated old Yellow Hair at Little Big Horn.
No wheels for me, no sights, but carbon shafts with Eskimoes.
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No.
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I agree with Kevin. Looking back through modern archery - from the Thompson brothers to Pope and Young to Fred bear, archers have always been on a quest to improve. If "traditional" archery is defined as those types of bows and arrows being used before the compound was introduced then we haven't scratched the surface on "new". Go check some ads or articles from the 50's and 60's and those that think that we're pushing too far today will surely be offended by what was going on a half a century ago.
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No. Traditional archery and hunting is what you want it to be. Do your thing and don't worry about what others do. Keep in mind traditional archers invented, prompted and many changed over to compounds. As was stated above, we traditionally evolve everything. Some just find a greater enjoyment of some older ways of doing things. That is great but not the only way or only correct way to do things.
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If the evolution of bowhunting is a flowing river, well...I'm just a stick that's hung in an eddy and trying to make it last as long as I am able. I'm still a part of the river, though.
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Seems like everyone else is caught up in shooting game from further away every year...witness the developments in long range rifles,handguns, muzzle loaders and shotguns, as well as compound bows...I believe the emphasis among traditional bowhunters, even those of us with more technically advanced equipment, is still getting as close as possible to game...and maintaining hunting accuracy still requires us to shoot regularly
DDave
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^^^^^^X2
Well put Dave. The woodsmanship is as much a part of it as the marksmanship.
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All I know for sure is: Shooting the stick and string is so darn much fun! We have no limitations in the fun we can generate using our imaginations to create unique shots that you just cannot do with "other" bows! I shoot for fun, not to win something, although winning is also fun but not necessary for a great time with your buds.
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I guess it depends on your definition of trad. Some would say what is currently referred to as "primitive" is actually trad. I can see the argument both ways.
On one hand, "traditional" is a self bow with wooden arrows. On the other "traditional" is just a recurve or longbow (laminated, with carbon, with glass, or whatever modern improvement you want to add) with an arrow (wood, aluminum, or carbon).
I find it interesting that some are very accepting of some modern upgrades and so very condemning of others. I once asked about sights on a trad bow and got a lot of "go ahead, trad is your own definition....but I would never do it."
I shot a compound for almost 20 years before I picked up a recurve. I switched to have more fun shooting. I have my own definition of what is trad. It doesn't necessarily have to agree with everyone's definition.
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Originally posted by McDave:
Well, your motto at the bottom of your posts pretty much says it all for me.
I think we'll all find our niche. I think that since we're mainly interested in trad archery, you don't have to worry about us becoming too high tech....although if there were an arrow insert that would make it show up on my GPS when I shoot it into high grass, I would be tempted.
Seriously, as long as we continue to respect various classes of shooters, from primitive to open, I think we'll be fine.
X2.
Well stated as always McDave.
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People idolize pioneers such as Fred Bear. Fred Bear was always looking for a way to improve performance of bows. Example, adding fiberglass backing. I have little doubt that most of our traditional pioneers would embrace low-stretch strings and carbon backing. That said, the "advances" in bow performance have been pretty dang modest at best. What one man call traditional a second will label it as "high-tech" modification.
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Thanks for the response .
I also feel that it is up to the individual but I can't help to think that a lot of the new stuff is redundant and designed to catch our eye to buy it but that is what sails is all about .
You take a 2 blade broad head and there are several that work the same . A 50# bow at 20yds. will for the most part give you a pass threw shot on a deer . So whats the thing with Teflon coated broad heads ? Will you pass threw faster ? No offense intended if you like them I just cant see paying the extra for archery supplies that give you no advantage .
Like string materials I have shot 60# 640gr.arrow with B-50 , B-55, and D-97 . At 20 yards the point of impact was no difference and the chronograph was 178 fps. with the B-50 and 181fps. with the D-97 . Also the bow was louder and high vibration . In my feeling it is not worth the extra price let alone the comfort difference .
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I don't think it makes much sense to get too carried away in setting absolutes as to what is too technical. Others will disagree as they feel that only the most simple is truly traditional. Yet others like to tinker greatly. Me, I think if you shoot a recurve, longbow or self bow without sights or a mechanical release, you are trad enough. I get no pickier than what is needed to qualify for the longbow class at 3D shoots. Nobody needs to seek approval for his own decision as to what is trad.