Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Ric O'Shay on January 22, 2014, 08:22:00 AM
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I'm not trying to offend anyone and I'm certainly not going to demean any equipment that folks want to use. However, I just read through several pages of headaches and heartaches that some folks are having trying to "tune" their bows to their arrows or their arrows to their bows. It hurt my head just reading their woes. :knothead: One person said he was so frustrated that he was thinking of giving up shooting. That to me is just sad. Very sad.
Archery (trad type) is supposed to be fun. In fact, yesterday I received a bow in the mail that I had traded for. 68" 50# @ 28" Morning star. I twisted up a new string, adjusted the brace height to 6" and set the nock 3/8" above the shelf. I grabbed a handful of wood arrows spined 50/54 and went out and shot. Beautiful arrow flight with the fletch spiraling into the hay bale. No worries, no frustration or aggravation, just having fun shooting a new bow.
I have compassion for those that think it is necessary to obsess over bow tuning. But at the same time, there is something to be said for us "Old School" folks. :archer2:
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Danny,
I'm with you. Maybe I have been lucky, but somehow my arrows fly great without tuning woes like those we see on this site regularly. I manage to get pass throughs, and when I do my part, my arrows go where they are supposed to.
The simplicity of traditional archery is a major factor in its enjoyment, at least for me. Simple, but not easy, and that is a good part of the appeal.
Just another old dinosaur's opinion.
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yep, ive never had trouble tuning any bow i have owned. I keep it very simple, use the bowyers guide for brace/nock, then start with shafts that I "think" should work. Usually within 15 minutes, im dialed in.
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I too feel for those who come up on a tuning wall. I appreciate these folks know that great arrow flight is important to accuracy and more important to penetration. And of course the joy of a beautiful arrow arc is sullied a bit by wagging arrows. So we want to get them tuned.
Most all my bows are within 3-4 pounds draw weight of one another. They are also similar in other ways. I don't change arrow materials and rarely even change spine (500 and 600 Axis spines). I rarely even change arrow length although sometimes I work up 27 or 27.5" arrows.
The only time I spend much time tuning is when I want to beef up to a heavier arrow for a different critter. I'll mess with different weight inserts and broadheads.
Frankly, I wouldn't need to change anything but I just like to tinker.
When I'm contemplating a new arrow I spend more time gaming with Stu's Calculator than making equipment adjustments.
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Well said Folks! I hear it all the time also. Folks starting their Trad Journeys that are blaming bad form, anchor, release, not picking a spot, on wrong arrows. How often did I receive a new bow, set the brace height, add the nock, MAKE SURE Arrow Nock fit on string properly [loose nocks = poor arrow flight and noise]. Then proceed to grab a bunch of arrows. Carbons and woodies whatever was around and have no problem hitting where I wanted. 35/55 Gold Tips and 55/60 woodies for all my bows between 45/55 #'s. Carbons are just a matter of cutting 1 inch longer than draw length and playing around with point weight. My 2 cents
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I agree and hope I don't run into any problems like the ones that others are having. Within my bow weight range I have CE150 and CE250. Between these two arrows and I have field points from 100 to 250 grains. I set the nock at around 1/2 inch and usually pick the CE150 arrow and what tip I think will be in the ball park,and then watch the arrow flight and change tip weight and you can tell real quick if you are going the wrong way.
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I usually just step back to 30 yards and make sure broadheads and field points are flying to the same spot. If not, tune accordingly. I believe I read in a book about Howard Hill that when he was getting ready for a hunt he made up a large batch of arrows and stepped back to 70 yards. He shot the arrows and bundled them in three groups, those that shot to the left, the right and spot on.
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i agree, even tho i am of a younger age i dont have any issues with tuning...i figured that mr caveman didnt sit there and tune till he was blue he just figured out what worked and went hunting (even in the day of knights tuning wasnt a big question) you just figure up with what works shoot and have fun...i use carbons and cut them 1-2" longer than draw weight and tune with point weight...a sharp broadhead and accurate shot will be the demise of any animal, regardless of arrow spine or weight, or tune so to speak ;)
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I agree. I haven't ever had any real problems tuning arrows to bows. Some, but no total aggravation where I wanted to give up.
I think guys and gals wanting extremely high FOC have to accept the headaches that come with their desires. If that's the journey they want then the road is not always smooth. But, we trad folk kinda take that in stride given our choice of archery. Each bow/arrow/point combo is a journey in itself. The rest of the journey is accurate delivery to the intended target with that bow/arrow/point combo.
Then, for some strange reason, we get a new bow and start over.
Isn't that the fun? :jumper: :jumper: :jumper: :archer2:
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Bud B. :clapper: :goldtooth:
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quote:
Originally posted by Ric O'Shay:
Archery (trad type) is supposed to be fun. In fact, yesterday I received a bow in the mail that I had traded for. 68" 50# @ 28" Morning star. I twisted up a new string, adjusted the brace height to 6" and set the nock 3/8" above the shelf. I grabbed a handful of wood arrows spined 50/54 and went out and shot. Beautiful arrow flight with the fletch spiraling into the hay bale. No worries, no frustration or aggravation, just having fun shooting a new bow.
:archer:
My test lab - much better than a calculator.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/Stumpkiller/Bowhunting/DSCN1086_zpsc4c8c6b3.jpg)
When I find shafts that work I verify spine on my $2 spine gauge. Two dowels 26" apart set into the edge of a shelf. Rose City has a printable deflection to spine chart.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/Stumpkiller/Bowhunting/HPIM2047.jpg)
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Good post Danny!! I'm with you. IMO the HFOC and EFOC attempts we often see are "shots in the dark" because there is no "base" to start from. + or - 14% FOC has worked for ever but many trying for the more extreme FOC arrows don't have a starting point to work from.
Also, in my experience, 90% of the "tuning" problems folks have is NOT bow center cut, arrow spine or point weight -- it IS shot execution and form. We are the MOST variable part of the system.
Arne
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I always use 125 points, I don't know if that makes it easy our not, But I don't have a problem getting good arrow flight....
I use Legacy shafts cut to 29" My draw, All of my Arrows are close to 500 grns. close to the 10 grns per pound scale....
When I hunt I twist off the field point and twist on a Broadhead of same weight....
As said above, I think some people over think it....
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Originally posted by moebow:
Good post Danny!! I'm with you. IMO the HFOC and EFOC attempts we often see are "shots in the dark" because there is no "base" to start from. + or - 14% FOC has worked for ever but many trying for the more extreme FOC arrows don't have a starting point to work from.
Also, in my experience, 90% of the "tuning" problems folks have is NOT bow center cut, arrow spine or point weight -- it IS shot execution and form. We are the MOST variable part of the system.
Arne
Winner, winner, chicken dinner!
I shot aluminum arrows for years. They worked well, but they would bend on occasion, and I don't like bent arrows! I liked carbon since they came out, but would not use them for a long time, cause they were not heavy enough for my liking. Then they came out with the components for making carbons heavier; heavy inserts and a much wider variety of field point weights. I worked up my first carbon hunting arrow and the added FOC just happened because the front was the easy place to add the weight (btw, my arrows are 21-22% FOC).
While I shot aluminums, I also shot woods. I could never shoot the woods as well as the aluminums, but they were good enough to play more at 3D shoots. After I switched to the carbons with the higher FOC, the woodies became the scourge of my life! I could group them OK, but could not get them to hit where I was looking to save my life! There is something different about the cast of the higher FOC arrows (at least for me) that wacs me out when I try to shoot the woods now. Last year I finally just gave them up for good.
I have also tried to help several local guys with tuning. The guys that had decent basic form tend to be able to tune ok and we find something that will work well for them. The guys that don't have good form get real frustrated when I tell them that they are doing something wrong that is making the arrows do what they do. I am not good at picking form apart, so they get even more frustrated when I tell them I don't know how to fix their problems!
Bisch
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Arne, as always your advice (and Danny's) is right on. When I'm having a really good day, my "too stiff" arrows shoot to the right (I'm a lefty) and my too weak arrows shoot to the left, but they group together. On my more usual days, I just get large groups. Whenever I get my act together, the arrows fly as you would expect them to, given their spines, but still very close to where I'm aiming.
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Danny,
Well said and for me it has worked for well over 60+ years.
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Yep. I've been shooting sticks for about 60 years myself, and can't say I've ever had a difficult time tuning arrows to shoot well out of my bows. That includes wood, fiberglass and carbon arrows out of selfbows, longbows, hybrids and recurves. Never shot aluminums much.
There no doubt is one best spine for a given bow, but a lot of folks don't realize that most bows will shoot a wide range of spines accurately. Howard Hill proved that in his shooting demonstrations. He would often take arrows from folks in the crowd, most likely spined a lot less than his personal arrows, and shot one after another into the bulls eye.
As others have already pointed out, many shooters don't have good enough, consistent enough form to properly tune arrows to the nth degree. It's a recipe for frustration. :)
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There's no way my form is good enough to get perfect flight from a bare shaft at 30 yards. I get bare shafts close at about 15 yards and then fletch em up. If broad heads fly well I'm done. It seems like most guys have trouble when their primary goal is to get extreme FOC. If you stumble into it fine, but the primary goal should be good flight shouldn't it?
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Remember when we numbered our arrows cause we knew #2 was always a bit high, and #6 always went a bit left, etc. You just mentaly adjusted for the deviation and still shot well. That all pretty much ended with aluminum and glass and now carbon. I can't believe how consistant some of them can be shot now..
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I think it was Bjorn(I may be wrong) who told me he used to ad 10# to the draw weight of the bow for picking arrows. I do this and it seems to work out for me. I dont get into the crazy tuning troubles. Just a minor adjustment and I'm good.
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It could be me, or it could be the 2114's!
:laughing:
Jack Howard was right, this is easy!
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My whole point in the first post was for folks not to get drawn up tight about bow/arrow tuning. John Schulz once said that he had never shot a bare shaft through a piece of paper in his life and to his knowledge, neither had Howard Hill.
Archery is a sport. For most of us it is an avocation. It is not something to develop angst over. Keep it simple.
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Well said by many,.. I subscribe to the KISS theory.
I believe we overthink this tuning, FOC, EFOC, Etc. I can still tune wood arrows to my bows much faster than carbons.
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Danny, I'm with ya buddy, great minds think alike! I guess I've been lucky, never came across too many real tuning issues.
Of course once I get my coarbonated shafts aligned with 432grs up front, 3.76" quad fletched aluminum hybrid footed shafts, with accellerators, matched up to my skinny stringed, micro arrow rest adjusted reflex/deflex concave recurved hybrid short longbow, everything just seems to fall into place! :bigsmyl:
LD
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Although I am not old...
I am with you guys.
Thanks Danny, for a great post.
CTT
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Excellent. :clapper:
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Originally posted by moebow:
Good post Danny!! I'm with you. IMO the HFOC and EFOC attempts we often see are "shots in the dark" because there is no "base" to start from. + or - 14% FOC has worked for ever but many trying for the more extreme FOC arrows don't have a starting point to work from.
Also, in my experience, 90% of the "tuning" problems folks have is NOT bow center cut, arrow spine or point weight -- it IS shot execution and form. We are the MOST variable part of the system.
Arne
Great post Arne, as usual. I'm all for tuning but like has already been said, clean arrow flight and broadheads hitting with field points is the goal, who cares how you get there.
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I think form is huge. Finding a basic recipe for arrow spine and tip weight for draw length and bow weight, and shooting those until you can group them well would be my best advise for a beginner. Then you can play with length and tip weight to do whatever you want for FOC. Most bows today are pretty forgiving. To follow the idea of the thread. Enjoy and and work to become better. Then worry about the finer technical points if that is what you enjoy.
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I was guilty of this when I started trad earlier this year......way overthinking.Guy that helped me tune took a bare shaft and cut it a little at a time until it was good at 10 yds.He then cut one of my fletched shafts,installed the broadhead I was going to use and said "shoot em both at that foam deer".Both hit pretty close to each other,he said "done".Way easier than I thought it would be.Probably took 30 minutes total.
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I'll take a beating here...but I never bare shafted any arrows for any of my bows. Just used common sense and listened to the old timers before me.
String it up, check the brace, maybe play with it, nock point 3/8" to start and if it's a recurve, go heavier in spine and a longbow, depend on the center shot, go lighter or or heavier.
Example, my Kempf longbow is center cut,55#,FF string. I shot some wood spined 55/60#....too stiff. Shot wood spined 50/55#....perfect flight. My 2117's...shoot well from all my bows BUT I test flighted these arrows, fletched with broadheads.
I agree with Ric...guys are making this way too complicated and taking the fun out of shooting Trad bows. Just my two cents from a guy who believes the simpler ways are better.
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sorry, but i'm not shooting a spiraling arrow at a water buff. Can you group arrows with poor form?
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Bisch "The guys that had decent basic form tend to be able to tune ok and we find something that will work well for them. The guys that don't have good form get real frustrated"
Agree 100%. Tuning is not rocket science. Having a well tuned arrow is a plus in several ways. I guess I am one of the zealots about tune, does not take me long to dial in a new combo, even high foc, but the gratification of perfect arrow flight is priceless.
Not trying to get anyone angry but a lot of fletch will help hide a marginally tuned arrow, now get that fletching wet and see what happens with a broadhead.
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Danny, I'm with you!
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I'm with you on this too.
I read out of curiosity some of the posts on here about tuning arrows and it makes me wonder "when did it get this hard" . Of course these are generally about carbon arrows and since I never shoot carbons, I don't worry about it much.
New bow, old bow, I just string it up, set nocking point where it has worked for the last 30 years, grab some woodies and go out and shoot. Most of my bows, at least the ones I will keep, will shoot a variety of spines of up to 10-15# variance with the woods. I can simply watch the arrow come out and tell if I need to change a little. Mostly just fling the woodies and enjoy watching them fly.
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I'm a novice here, only shooting 5 or 6 years. The tuning thing comes across as a big issue to me. My gut feeling has been to stay away from the charts, largely... I don't even think about dealing with "Stu's"- I go with a basic guideline for our bows, go out to the bale and shoot. I work with nock point, and brace height, staying close to 125 as possible. I figure if the arrow flies good, it's good.
I know my form isn't perfected enough to rely on the paper tune results, I'd rather know that the flight looks good from release to the mark. it's good to know some of you more seasoned archers feel the same.
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AGREEED! I usually do exactly like you described, maybe add a bear weather rest to get great flight from a variety of center cut or cut past center risers. Usually takes 15 minutes to get a bow shooting better than myself. Lots of folks are complicating a rock, in my opinion!
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I agree that people make tuning out to be harder than it is. I was guilty of it when I first came over go traditional, and it was a multitude of factors. ONE, my form was off, TWO, I had no understanding of basic arrow characteristics.
To this day I still cannot make up a set of woodies, but I can get a new bow in the mail and new carbons and within 15-30 min have perfectly tuned arrows.
I now play the KISS bareshaft way and viola. One thing for certain , you can't take someone else's tune and try to use it for yourself.
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The "Old School" way as Rick said in the original post...
That's the lynch pin right there. Your years of experience have given you A: the knowledge of what should and shouldn't work for any given set up,
And B: the confidence born of demonstrative ability to acknowledge that the operator plays a more significant role.
It is not a cavalier approach that you take, but rather a more direct path that evades the detours of doubt and second guesses. It's something I admire and hope to work towards.
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Coming from the other side of the "camp", I find tuning arrows a lot of fun and has become an extreme confidence builder over the years. While there are many of you out there don't want it or need it, some of us actually like it. I like to tinker with my gear and have learned a lot more through experimenting on my own and through the experiments of others than I ever would have following a norm or what I was originally taught.
I too feel for those who have trouble tuning. However, I firmly believe anyone can tune with 1) proper form and 2) a bit of guidance. It's amazing what kind of improvements can be done with a video of the shooter and following the proper procedure for tuning. However, #2 is useless without #1, so I agree with the posters that say this is of primary importance.
I also am positive I am a far better shot with tuned and dialed in equipment than without. It is not "the" factor but for me, it is certainly a beneficial contributor. I and others I know have helped improve the shooting of archers simply by helping them get their equipment tuned. I don't mean getting to paper plate size, I mean tennis balls and smaller. Their form and overall shooting skill was good but they suffered from multiple maladies, including discouraged confidence, that were alleviated from systematic adjustments to equipment until it was on. Their confidence soared and in turn, I think they are better bowhunters for it. I'm sure everyone would agree if it will help you take a more ethical shot on an animal with trad gear it certainly can't hurt.
If you don't want it and are happy with your results, then by all means I wish you the best in your chosen method. But if you aren't satisfied and want every possible ounce you can squeeze out of your gear, then tuning, and "micro" tuning just might help you.
Yes, it can be as simple or as complex as you want, but that doesn't mean either is better than the other. It is simply what you choose it to be.
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My experience is that tuning isn't much of an issue for fletched target points but...your broadheads aren't going to fly very well if your arrow/bow combination isn't "tuned".
In the case of the ill-tuned bow/arrow combination that is sporting a broadhead, good form will not help the arrow hit it's mark and get good penetration.
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NBK makes a good point. What many of us call "old School" is laced with lots of experience that we sometimes take for granted.
Sometimes when I read the "tuning trouble threads" and read the combos the archer is having trouble with I wonder, why he/she is trying to do that.
I agree with all those who rate consistent and proper form as the foundation for all this. If one can't make a proper shot and do it from shot to shot, the comparisons one has to make when tuning aren't possible.
I didn't want to go there (form) early in the post because I didn't want to cause those who have trouble with form and subsequently tuning to throw up their hands and conclude they are screwed.
I'll make another comment about Stu's Calculator. (I don't know the fellow, just his work, so this isn't a personal plug.) I don't remember having trouble tuning any kind of bow the last 35 years of my archery. But, I did have lots of trouble the first 10 years! Frankly that early trouble had more to do with shoddy production of broadheads in those days. My arrows shot fine with field points but some of the broadhead pointed arrows planed all over the place (Satellite and Savora were two that I tried to use).
But, when I discovered Stu's on this site about 4 years ago I loved it! It provides one the opportunity to game with and better understand all the impacts various bow and arrow specifications can have on dynamic spine.
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Obviously, you can't really tune the bow very well if you can't hit anything anyway.
However, "the way you shoot" is one of the things that you're tuning for.
I tune primarily by group location or impact point. I'm looking for my bare shafts or broadheads to group to the same place as fletched field points. Bare shaft or even broadhead groups may be larger than fletched field points but the center should be in the same place.
The result is the best tune possible given your level of shooting ability. The smaller your groups, the better you can tune.
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I guess I've picked up on a few things in the last 25 years of shooting stickbows. My tuning process takes about 10 minutes.
First of all I have a pretty good feeling what spine arrow I will need based on center cut of the bow (recurve: same spine as bow wt, longbow: a tad lower). I set my nock at 5/8", brace longbows at 7" and recurves at 8-1/2". Then I shoot fletched arrows. Maybe just a few twists later I am seeing great flight.
If I'm getting a slight twitch in flight with broadheads usually turning cock feather in takes care of it.
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I have a friend that is obsessed with paper tuning his bow. He will spend hours trying to get the elusive bullet hole. Problem is that his confidence goes way down when he gets a bad paper tear. Which is more often than not. For me it's a waist of time. I have always had release issues that cloud the results.
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I don't worry about bullet holes in paper. I just need to be able to hit what I shoot at with a broadhead traveling straight enough to get decent penetration.
Bare shaft flight/impact is an indication of whether or not I'm about there. Then I shoot a few broadheads to verify.
If broadhead targets weren't so expensive, I would go right to the broadhead shooting because that's what counts. If they group where I aim, it's time to go hunting.
All that said, I use all sorts of odds and end arrows (leftovers) for stump shooting and even shooting small game with blunts. Within reason, the fletching is enough to straighten out the flight of a blunt tipped arrow that is less than a perfect match.
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I agree I killed near a hundred deer before I ever heard of bare shafting!
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Originally posted by ddauler:
I agree I killed near a hundred deer before I ever heard of bare shafting!
I wounded and lost some before I learned something about "tuning".
I started with a compound...that's what the shop sold. I used the arrows they built for me and they flew ok with field tips.
This was back before the internet and I didn't even know anybody else who bowhunted except the guys at the shop.
I couldn't shoot broadheads at the indoor range and didn't have anyplace else to shoot except for the hunting woods.
I took the bow and went hunting. It's just that the broadheads didn't fly well so it made a mess of the deer.
The "mystery" persisted into my "trad" shooting. In fact I still have that first recurve and some of the 29 inch 2117 I first started with. Those arrows still shoot WAY stiff and broadheads fly to the left. LOL I hunted with that stuff for several years before I shot enough broadheads to become convinced there was a "problem".
I just didn't shoot many broadheads unless there was a deer in front of me and there wasn't anybody around to tell me any better. All I heard was this stuff about not having to "tune" much.
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Well I believe in my heart that all of us as traditional archers ultimately want to achieve perfect arrow flight. And It looks like to me what everyone is trying to say to those beginning archers that are experiencing the frustration of trying to achieve perfect arrow flight is: KEEP MOVING FORWARD!
My frustration early on was I was dealing with a shop that sold strictly compound bows and didn’t know squat about traditional equipment. He measured my draw, look at a chart and cut the shafts 1 inch longer than my draw, charged me $120.00 and said hear you go. I'm sure I don't have to explain how those arrows flew, but I was not going to let this one dilemma interfere with my traditional pursuit, I kept moving forward. My breakthrough came when I bought an arrow saw.
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I have a lot of fun tuning my arrows and have learned a lot about arrow flight. Most of the frustration comes from inexperince, in my opinon.
Gilbert
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I have been shooting recurves and longbows since 1966. I have never shot a bare shaft or shot thru paper. An old timer back then gave me a formula to figure out what wood shafts I needed for any given bow based on draw weight, point weight, arrow length and center cut of the bow and once ff strings came on the scene,that was added into the formula, Never failed me when I shot wood. Now that I shoot carbon, because most of them have a wide spine tolerence, i had to tinker a bit at first with what spine I needed but once I found the correct carbon arrow, never a problem. All of my bows shoot the same arrow. Simple works.
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Originally posted by Danny Rowan:
I have been shooting recurves and longbows since 1966. I have never shot a bare shaft or shot thru paper. An old timer back then gave me a formula to figure out what wood shafts I needed for any given bow based on draw weight, point weight, arrow length and center cut of the bow and once ff strings came on the scene,that was added into the formula, Never failed me when I shot wood. Now that I shoot carbon, because most of them have a wide spine tolerence, i had to tinker a bit at first with what spine I needed but once I found the correct carbon arrow, never a problem. All of my bows shoot the same arrow. Simple works.
That formula sounds interesting given that bows of similar draw weight may shoot very different speeds and require significantly different arrows.
Where does the "simple" come in?
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I think the simple comes in like this,
Once Danny was taught the formula, all he had to do was run the numbers in his head, (real quick I'm sure) and viola he had the shafts that shoot well. It sounds nice and simple to me.
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Originally posted by Brianlocal3:
I think the simple comes in like this,
Once Danny was taught the formula, all he had to do was run the numbers in his head, (real quick I'm sure) and viola he had the shafts that shoot well. It sounds nice and simple to me.
Doing a little arithmetic is simple enough. What concerns me is the validity of the formula.
There are variables in bow design other than draw weight and center shot that effect "speed" or what spine arrow will work.
Then, of course, once you have an arrow that's "tunable" brace height, or even string silencer type/size/location can get things in/out of "tune". Where does that enter into the formula?
I agree that you don't have to shoot bare shafts or shoot through paper. I do think that you need to shoot some broad heads and "tune" your bow/arrow combination to shoot them as good as your skill level will allow...if you're going to hunt.
Ignoring the physics doesn't make it go away.
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Originally posted by JC:
Coming from the other side of the "camp", I find tuning arrows a lot of fun and has become an extreme confidence builder over the years. While there are many of you out there don't want it or need it, some of us actually like it. I like to tinker with my gear and have learned a lot more through experimenting on my own and through the experiments of others than I ever would have following a norm or what I was originally taught.
I too feel for those who have trouble tuning. However, I firmly believe anyone can tune with 1) proper form and 2) a bit of guidance. It's amazing what kind of improvements can be done with a video of the shooter and following the proper procedure for tuning. However, #2 is useless without #1, so I agree with the posters that say this is of primary importance.
I also am positive I am a far better shot with tuned and dialed in equipment than without. It is not "the" factor but for me, it is certainly a beneficial contributor. I and others I know have helped improve the shooting of archers simply by helping them get their equipment tuned. I don't mean getting to paper plate size, I mean tennis balls and smaller. Their form and overall shooting skill was good but they suffered from multiple maladies, including discouraged confidence, that were alleviated from systematic adjustments to equipment until it was on. Their confidence soared and in turn, I think they are better bowhunters for it. I'm sure everyone would agree if it will help you take a more ethical shot on an animal with trad gear it certainly can't hurt.
If you don't want it and are happy with your results, then by all means I wish you the best in your chosen method. But if you aren't satisfied and want every possible ounce you can squeeze out of your gear, then tuning, and "micro" tuning just might help you.
Yes, it can be as simple or as complex as you want, but that doesn't mean either is better than the other. It is simply what you choose it to be.
Well said JC.
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I'm with JC on this....
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I think its a form issue if you don't have consistant drawlenghth then that needs to be addressed first.I use a clicker which helped me.
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Originally posted by Danny Rowan:
I have been shooting recurves and longbows since 1966. I have never shot a bare shaft or shot thru paper. An old timer back then gave me a formula to figure out what wood shafts I needed for any given bow based on draw weight, point weight, arrow length and center cut of the bow and once ff strings came on the scene,that was added into the formula, Never failed me when I shot wood. Now that I shoot carbon, because most of them have a wide spine tolerence, i had to tinker a bit at first with what spine I needed but once I found the correct carbon arrow, never a problem. All of my bows shoot the same arrow. Simple works.
Ok, cough it up! Yea, that's wright the formula, let's have it!
:notworthy:
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Well placed arrow. . . good form. . . you can kill a deer with a .22. . . want to be as simple as possible. . . most would call me old school. All true! FACT IS: After 40 years I still get shook up in the presence of deer, I am not warmed up, I am tired, twigs are in the way, a deer is nervous, it is a game of inches sometimes, and I do not always perform/shoot as well as I like.
CONCLUSION: I am going to eliminate the most variables I can which means shoot the best possible arrow I can. All things being equal- I am going for a well tuned combination of heavy shaft, high foc, small fletch, penetrating head. NEEDED to kill deer? NO! But the day you lose a PY deer over one inch- you may wish you had spent an evening dialing it in a bit better. Been there done that!
BTW- Some would call me "old school"- but a Black Widow with ff string and 31" draw is not apples to apples with a 60s Bear. :)
2C
Dan In KS
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I think the message is this.....
Traditional archery/bowhunting is supposed to be simple. At least for me. Back to basics. Don't want to "worry" about equipment...just want to shoot it.
Tuning cartwheels is fine for those who relish creating a challenge for themselves. Some of us don't want to do it. But the info they get from those who "love" it is often confusing, challenging, costs a lot of $$$ to do...and a whole host of "other" stuff that really messes with the confidence of beginners and discourages them, IMO. Not everyone, in fact I'd say most of us, like to tune arrows...we just want to shoot them.
In 40 years, building at least a half-dozen selfbows and backed bows, and laminated bows each year, I almost never have issues with arrow flight. It's simple. Understand spine, and paradox, and what creates good flight, and you can easily make good arrows that will fly.
If you like to "muddy" the waters and experiment, Okay...but it shouldn't be rocket science....we're scaring the kids here! Teach them the basics, then "play" all you want. That's my 2 cents.
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Originally posted by Mark Baker:
I think the message is this.....
Traditional archery/bowhunting is supposed to be simple. At least for me. Back to basics. Don't want to "worry" about equipment...just want to shoot it.
Tuning cartwheels is fine for those who relish creating a challenge for themselves. Some of us don't want to do it. But the info they get from those who "love" it is often confusing, challenging, costs a lot of $$$ to do...and a whole host of "other" stuff that really messes with the confidence of beginners and discourages them, IMO. Not everyone, in fact I'd say most of us, like to tune arrows...we just want to shoot them.
In 40 years, building at least a half-dozen selfbows and backed bows, and laminated bows each year, I almost never have issues with arrow flight. It's simple. Understand spine, and paradox, and what creates good flight, and you can easily make good arrows that will fly.
If you like to "muddy" the waters and experiment, Okay...but it shouldn't be rocket science....we're scaring the kids here! Teach them the basics, then "play" all you want. That's my 2 cents.
Yes Sir!
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I agree with what Mark Baker said 100%.
From what I've heard others here say, it seems that as we go higher tech with arrows-wood to glass to aluminum to carbon-they recover from paradox at different rates, so they become more sensitive. The more high tech the arrows, the more sensitive to faults in form, release, length, point weight, spine, brace height, nock height, nock tightness. That's why I stick with wood.
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Exactly Brian and yes sir Mark.
mdf, I am sorry, but speed has nothing to do with it. The speed of the bow is not going to determine what spine arrow is needed, neither is silencers. The type of string materail yes. Granted brace and nock point need to be adjusted but that is part of the equation to fine tune after the proper spine is selected as is shooting broadheads, which should be spin tested first, to make sure they fly correctly.
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I use the same formula that Danny uses and it works great! Being a bit obsessive I then bareshaft just to be sure and bareshafting has yet to reveal anything the formula did not cover. It is simple and has not let me down. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Originally posted by Danny Rowan:
Exactly Brian and yes sir Mark.
mdf, I am sorry, but speed has nothing to do with it. The speed of the bow is not going to determine what spine arrow is needed, neither is silencers. The type of string materail yes. Granted brace and nock point need to be adjusted but that is part of the equation to fine tune after the proper spine is selected as is shooting broadheads, which should be spin tested first, to make sure they fly correctly.
I don't think we really disagree about anything. The point is that you have to tweak things like brace height and nock point location to get good broadhead flight.
That's tuning, right?
As I said earlier, I only use bare shafts because it gets me really close and minimizes the umber of bradheads I need to shoot. That's only a concern because broadheads destoy targets that tend to be fairly expensive.
It's very rare that I have to make any adjustments for broadheads after tuning with bare shafts.
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Im in the old school catagory too. A new bow gets a new string set up to my specs then grab a few arrows and see what works best. Paper tuned once in the late 80s for my one and only compound and it was a real PIA. Tried bareshfting once about 15 yrs ago with confusing results so I went back to feild vs broadhead groups and never have a problem...........I also keep all my old arrows so its easy to get the right one to work with a little tuning...........
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I really sympathize with both sides of this argument. Since I spend all day every day with new and old traditional archers I'd like to weigh in on this topic. More than anything to hopefully persuade some of you guys to have a little compassion for those who are less experienced. Pointed advice is needed, and generalities don't make sense to a guy with no experience.
This thread is great advice for the experienced archer that has gone down the path of over analyzing the sport. But not for the beginner full of excitement about archery, without a lick of experience or knowledge to fall back on. There is something to be said for not complicating this sport. But there is also some advice that will only further frustrate a lot of beginning archers.
It is simple to you guys that have done this since 1950. You have a lifetime of experience behind you. If you have experience under your belt then you know tuning either through reasoning it out, or just a "feel" you have developed. You probably also have a trash can full of tester arrows that can help you identify the correct shaft. You can grab some arrows and find what flies perfect. Not everybody has that.
It is not simple to the guy that bought a Samick Sage from the Big Box store and they sold him a set of .300 spine carbon arrows to go with it. He is scratching his head and watching his arrows wag their way down to the target. The "KISS" method, or the "grab a set of arrows and go hunt" method, doesn't do this new shooter any favors. He has, literally, no experience to fall back on.
I don't necessarily like the new age, ultra technical line of thinking. I'm relatively young, but traditional archery has literally been my lifestyle since I can remember, and now it is my livelihood. I find myself far more inline with you "old school" guys. Just last year my cousin built me a bow and brought it to Texas for a pig hunt, I brought some woodies that I "thought" should work out of the bow. The first day I had that bow in my hands I stalked and killed two pigs. The bow had a different impact point than the one I was currently shooting, and my arrows hit to the left. My arrows weren't "PERFECT", but they were danged close. I was able to make a mental adjustment after a couple dozen shots, and my arrows zipped through both sides of both pigs, both fell within sight. No tuning required, thankfully I had the experience and a trashcan full of old arrows to choose from.
The guy that over complicates this sport leads himself down a path of constant frustration and a loss of confidence (the opposite of what he's striving for). That guy needs to understand that this sport is simpler. I sometimes feel frustrated when the conversation turns far more technical than it needs to, and I want to smack some of my friends on the head once in a while and tell them that it is a lot more simple than they are making it (all in good fun). These guys need the KISS advice.
There is nothing wrong with understanding the basics of how and why an arrow flies out of a bow. What does a stiff arrow do? What does a weak arrow do? How can you identify a stiff/weak arrow, and then how do you make a change to that arrow to get it to fly well? The pursuit of this knowledge is not sacrilege.
As bowhunters, we need to strive for an arrow that flies true. No fishtailing, and no porpoising. Arrows that "group", but porpoise, are not tuned.
There is a happy medium between simplicity and understanding the physics. Personally that is the medium I strive for. I am happy to talk the technical talk, or simply grab a set of arrows and shoot.
This forum is an excellent resource. This sport can be as simple or as complicated as you want it to be. Some guys love tinkering, love to experiment with tuning methods, arrow shafts, point weights, FOC, etc etc, and they LOVE the pursuit of more knowledge. Some guys want to just watch their arrows fly without the fuss. Both guys love archery. Like I said at the beginning, I enjoy both guys, and depending on the day, I am both guys. There are more than one ways to skin this cat.
It is not my intent to offend or cause conflict here. Great discussion.
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Outstanding post
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I agree with the "Outstanding post". Never even thought much about tuning until I joined Tradgang and I think the reason is that I have always used large feathers and 3" to 1" broadheads which will let almost any arrow fly well.
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Originally posted by hvyhitter:
Im in the old school catagory too. A new bow gets a new string set up to my specs then grab a few arrows and see what works best. Paper tuned once in the late 80s for my one and only compound and it was a real PIA. Tried bareshfting once about 15 yrs ago with confusing results so I went back to feild vs broadhead groups and never have a problem...........I also keep all my old arrows so its easy to get the right one to work with a little tuning...........
Exactly..."field vs broad head groups"?
That's all you do with bare shafts...compare how they group to how fletched field points group.
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Keep it simple and keep it fun.
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Mike, What I was getting at is that bareshaft to broadhead is a two part proccess. Part 1 is bareshafts and fletched fieldpoints to get you the right shaft size and pretty close in length/point weight. Part 2 is backing up to 30yds or so and fine tuning with point weight or brace height or nock pont to get fletched fieldpoints/broadheads into he same group.......A nice group at 20yds can become two at 30. I just skip the first part. My nock point is pretty constant at 9/16 for most bows but will show a tad high or low at 30 w/broadheads. I also tune everything for 160 snuffers so thats one less veriable to worry about.......
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I know what arrows I have and I know what is required from a bow to make them shoot. So I only get bows that shoot the arrows I have. Of course I will adjust point weights a bit, but never the length or the spines. Besides, I am terrified of carbon fiber dust or having a carbon arrow blowup.
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Originally posted by Ric O'Shay:
[QB] I'm not trying to offend anyone and I'm certainly not going to demean any equipment that folks want to use. However, I just read through several pages of headaches and heartaches that some folks are having trying to "tune" their bows to their arrows or their arrows to their bows. It hurt my head just reading their woes. :knothead: One person said he was so frustrated that he was thinking of giving up shooting. That to me is just sad. Very sad.
It appears to me that this post has deviated from my original intent to a ME vs. THEM bow and arrow tuning. I simply noted that I thought it was sad that someone would give up archery because some issues of obsessive bow tuning became that frustrating. The intent was not how to best tune a bow.
I believe that in some ways our "techie" world today has created just that sort of obsession in everything we do.
I choose to escape from that high tech world by shooting my longbow and even regressing to the wonderful world of yesteryear when things were slow and easy and not filled with instant gratification and all of the acronyms that have invaded our lives.
To those of you that choose not to escape as I do, that's fine with me. But it is still sad when the techie world drives someone away from a sport that has been with us since God breathed life into Adam. Again, to me, that is sad. Very sad.
Danny
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Ric, I appreciate your sentiments on tuning, but I'll echo what others have said regarding experience or lack of it. A 50yr veteran can tune a bow in his sleep. A newbie needs some guidance and some kind of method to get his gear tuned up. That's where paper and bare shafts come in. That said, I find myself grinding my teeth when someone tells a newbie that he needs to have bare shafts flying perfectly from 30 yds. That's unnecessary and frankly impossible for 99% of newbies.
Let's keep things simple.
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I don't know if the "techie world" is driving anybody out.
"Traditional" equipment might be comparatively simple but hitting the target with any degree of regularity isn't all that easy...maybe not so simple?
Some people can have fun even when the miss a lot, some will stick with it as they work toward their goals and others get frustrated and quit.
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Originally posted by highPlains:
I really sympathize with both sides of this argument. Since I spend all day every day with new and old traditional archers I'd like to weigh in on this topic. More than anything to hopefully persuade some of you guys to have a little compassion for those who are less experienced. Pointed advice is needed, and generalities don't make sense to a guy with no experience.
This thread is great advice for the experienced archer that has gone down the path of over analyzing the sport. But not for the beginner full of excitement about archery, without a lick of experience or knowledge to fall back on. There is something to be said for not complicating this sport. But there is also some advice that will only further frustrate a lot of beginning archers.
It is simple to you guys that have done this since 1950. You have a lifetime of experience behind you. If you have experience under your belt then you know tuning either through reasoning it out, or just a "feel" you have developed. You probably also have a trash can full of tester arrows that can help you identify the correct shaft. You can grab some arrows and find what flies perfect. Not everybody has that.
It is not simple to the guy that bought a Samick Sage from the Big Box store and they sold him a set of .300 spine carbon arrows to go with it. He is scratching his head and watching his arrows wag their way down to the target. The "KISS" method, or the "grab a set of arrows and go hunt" method, doesn't do this new shooter any favors. He has, literally, no experience to fall back on.
I don't necessarily like the new age, ultra technical line of thinking. I'm relatively young, but traditional archery has literally been my lifestyle since I can remember, and now it is my livelihood. I find myself far more inline with you "old school" guys. Just last year my cousin built me a bow and brought it to Texas for a pig hunt, I brought some woodies that I "thought" should work out of the bow. The first day I had that bow in my hands I stalked and killed two pigs. The bow had a different impact point than the one I was currently shooting, and my arrows hit to the left. My arrows weren't "PERFECT", but they were danged close. I was able to make a mental adjustment after a couple dozen shots, and my arrows zipped through both sides of both pigs, both fell within sight. No tuning required, thankfully I had the experience and a trashcan full of old arrows to choose from.
The guy that over complicates this sport leads himself down a path of constant frustration and a loss of confidence (the opposite of what he's striving for). That guy needs to understand that this sport is simpler. I sometimes feel frustrated when the conversation turns far more technical than it needs to, and I want to smack some of my friends on the head once in a while and tell them that it is a lot more simple than they are making it (all in good fun). These guys need the KISS advice.
There is nothing wrong with understanding the basics of how and why an arrow flies out of a bow. What does a stiff arrow do? What does a weak arrow do? How can you identify a stiff/weak arrow, and then how do you make a change to that arrow to get it to fly well? The pursuit of this knowledge is not sacrilege.
As bowhunters, we need to strive for an arrow that flies true. No fishtailing, and no porpoising. Arrows that "group", but porpoise, are not tuned.
There is a happy medium between simplicity and understanding the physics. Personally that is the medium I strive for. I am happy to talk the technical talk, or simply grab a set of arrows and shoot.
This forum is an excellent resource. This sport can be as simple or as complicated as you want it to be. Some guys love tinkering, love to experiment with tuning methods, arrow shafts, point weights, FOC, etc etc, and they LOVE the pursuit of more knowledge. Some guys want to just watch their arrows fly without the fuss. Both guys love archery. Like I said at the beginning, I enjoy both guys, and depending on the day, I am both guys. There are more than one ways to skin this cat.
It is not my intent to offend or cause conflict here. Great discussion.
Great post, completely agree... :thumbsup:
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A couple of years ago a kid stopped by and asked for help with his longbow. His arrows had a spiral tail action. He had some carbons and some cedars, they flew the same. He had tried everything. when he showed me his Big 5, he had the brace way out and the nock real high. I reset everything and shot it, both arrows and they both were good. He shot and they both spiraled. He was torquing his release hand and his bow hand. With some work, he pured up his form and his arrows flew straight. With new shooters, the last thing they tune is themselves, all too often.
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Originally posted by pavan:
A souple a years ago a kid stopped by and asked for help with his longbow. His arrows had a spiral tail action. He had some carbons and some cedars, they flew the same. He had tried everything. when he showed me his Big 5, he had the brace way out and the nock real high. I reset everything and shot it both arrows and they both good. He shot and they both spiraled. He was torquing his release hand and his bow hand. With some work, he pured up his form and his arrows flew straight. With new shooters, the last thing they tune is themselves, all too often.
Bingo. :campfire:
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A souple? What is a souple. That is what i get for typing and talking to my walk ins at the same time. I will fix that.
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Those new to tuning and shooting traditional archery should be satisfied with the best they can tune at that time. With practice and form improvement there ability to tune to a higher degree will also rise. It is sad if some one leaves traditional archery because they feel they can not tune. Heck when I started some time back hitting the target at twenty yards made me feel good and was wonderful to watch a properly loosed arrow in flight. Also some are just not cut out for traditional archery and will leave the sport. Stick with it guys and gals, the journey is the reward.
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I'm guilty, of overthinking that is. I wanted to drop 50 grains off my tip weight. I went by my bud Tom (Bentpole) on Saturday to shoot. When I started to bare shaft he said "stop that and just try it"! To my surprise he was right! My arrows flew awesome! The 50 grains made no difference. The broadheads grouped with the field points. Old school tuning, awesome!
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Originally posted by Ric O'Shay:
I have compassion for those that think it is necessary to obsess over bow tuning. But at the same time, there is something to be said for us "Old School" folks. :archer2:
I agree 100%.....I am less scientific as well...calculation in my head of add 5# or subtract 5# based on centershot, longbow, 29" draw or more, weight of heads, performance bow or old school, b50 or FF, etc....and then go for it....maybe change heads or change brace height as I shoot a little more but that is it. Sometimes use the Spine Calculator but mostly just head computation...grab something close and see how it goes.
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I think lots of tuning grief is really bad release/poor form....
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I got beat up on another site for saying this but here go,s. just grab your bow properly spined arrows and go have some Fun? I think guys coming over from there compound days are over thinking everything Go ahead beat me up !
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Great post! I just started shooting trad in January and I have been shooting everyday, and I too tend to get caught up in over analyzing. My goal is to find my proper set up for hunting then practice, practice,practice until the fall archery season then make a determination if I can shoot good enough to ethically hunt. I just recieved some good advice to just focus on form because it equals accuracy. I tend to get ahead of myself at times and want to hurry the process. I also enjoy learning and this site is a great resource. I'm going to take Blanios advice, have fun and work on form! I really enjoy this site and all the help that it has provided me on this journey. Hopefully I will be ready to take my first trad deer in the fall! Thanks for all the help.
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I guess I am an anomaly... I shoot the same 28 inch 35/55 GTs from all my bows (51# to 70#) and I get the same arrow with same point to fly great by brace height, nok set and rest material adjustments. I can also get 15/35s, 35.55s and 55/75s to fly from all my bows (although the impact changes slightly and I then have to make adjustments to my BOW not my arrow. I know this goes against traditional wisdom but it just works for me, I focus on making adjustments to my bow and make my arrows shoot where I naturally look.
I tune my bow to shoot the arrow where I look. It really is simple, if my arrows hit left consistently, I either adjust brace height or I use a softer side plate. If they hit right consistently I adjust brace height and/or use a thinner and harder side plate. If the arrows impact target above aim point I raise nok point and/or use a softer shelf rest, it they hit lower I use a harder shelf material or move nok down (most of the time my nock set stays pretty consistent at just under ½ inch and most of my longbows settle in to a 7 – 7 1/4 inch brace height. Works for me and I seldom see any errant arrow flight using three 4 inch feather. And I shoot rather large Simmons broad heads. If I get bad arrow flight it is because of my release, dropping my bow arm or pulling my release hand away from my face.
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amen to what moebow said
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Dave,
That's impressive that you can do that. I've not had that kind of luck but it would be awesome to shoot the same arrow from all bows.
Now I'm sure they serpentine doesn't like your arrows so I give you permission to send it to me and I will make sure it gets proper use :)
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I read through this post and am surprised to find out that bare shaft tuning is a new complicated high tech method. I bought my first hunting bow in 1972. I had been shooting a light weight recurve that I bought at a garage sale for about 4 years by then and had reasonably consistent form for a 12 year getting ready to go hunting. When I bought the bow, the owner of the shop pulled out a bunch of bare aluminum arrow shafts and asked me what kind of broadheads I was planning on shooting. He chose a field point based on my answer (145 grains to match the 145 grain screw in bear broadhead) and screwed them on the shafts, which varied in length and stiffness. He then had me shoot them in his indoor range. From the first batch of about 12 we narrowed it down to 4 that shot better and repeated until I had the perfect arrow – a 29” 1916 to go with the 45 lb bear Kodiak Hunter.
I still use that bare shaft method and can tune an arrow to a bow fairly quickly. Now I generally use carbon and vary point weight to make things work, even with high FOC. The problem is that we no longer have the local archery shop that can teach someone tuning quickly in an hour sales call like I had when I learned. At the time, I didn’t know anyone that bow hunted and just met the shop owner that day. I just knew it was something I wanted to do and was lucky to walk into the right shop.
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here's my dilema- can group bare's, field points and bh's around the same spot but the bh's spiril most of the time. Yes i've tried everything. Different spines from full length to too short. What does my head in is when people say it must be form. Maybe it is, but how can you shoot a group with poor form? A group means your doing something consistently. Maybe i have a bad release thats the same everytime? The other thing that annoys me most is making a change to a variable and not seeing any change in results. Honestly i don't know how that works.
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Ozy: I assume your broadheads are on straight. Don't think I can be of much help on the spiraling issue. However, that won't stop me from taking a guess. I'm thinking your arrows might be marginally weak, which doesn't show up until you put the broadheads on. Going up in spine might help.
Re the small changes in one variable and not seeing any changes. Small changes can be overpowered by bad form, but just as likely is the fact that small changes usually aren't that noticeable. Big changes are or should be. Some folks say they can tell the difference in one twist of the string, 10 grains in arrow/point weight, a 64th inch change in nock height. Guess I shouldn't doubt them, but in 50 years of shooting with other folks, I've never met anyone who could.
Bigger changes, on the other hand, like a half dozen turns of the string, or an eighth-inch change in nock height or 50 grains in arrow/point weight should be noticeable, but they won't necessarily lead to better or worse arrow flight because most bow/arrow combinations are pretty tolerant of these changes.
If the arrow is tuned pretty well to the bow, raising or lowering the brace height a little isn't going to affect the quality of the arrow flight very much if at all. Likewise a little change in nock height won't either, nor will a little change in weight. Each may raise or lower the arrow's impact a little, and the operative words here are "a little" but the arrow will still fly true. And often, we're not accurate enough and/or our form isn't good enough to detect these changes, even with bare shafting.
I'm beginning to ramble. It's terribly difficult to diagnose a shooting problem without seeing the shooter shoot. All I can really suggest is take a deep breath, try to relax, and keep working at it. Keep experimenting, and don't be afraid to try some combinations that appear way outside the box. Good luck.
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must be something in my shooting? The saga continues. I agree with minute changes not making huge differences. I seem to have to make radical changes in spine to see any change in flight. If thats the case how do you try and get it in the middle of the bell curve?
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Danny, It could be the "magic" built into those green hornet arrows you're shooting!!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Just kidding Brother, I agree with the fletch it up, string it up and shoot it theory. I don't fret over tuning much. I may get away with that because I like a lot of feather.
4 X 5" feathers with a lot of helical probably help a great deal.
DD