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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: ed cowden on February 12, 2014, 06:05:00 PM
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I know we all have had deer or elk walk right past us like we were not there. Also I know we have been busted even when hiding in brush or with trees breaking our outline. I was charged by a lion while in Africa with Asat camo head to toe. I know she saw me and was coming straight to me. Why did the camo not work? And why does it work sometimes and other times not. Scent yes. But many times I don't think they smell me. It is like a startled stair. Do you think it needs to be more 3D like a gilly. I know people that still hunt with plaid and blue jeans. I just don't understand how camo works?
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A lion charged you and your still here to write about it.
Maybe your camo worked well enough :)
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IMO it's really a combination; scent, movement, contrast and contour.
Scent: even though you can't smell yourself or even if you use the most expensive scent blocker, there are still traces of human scent by which animals can detect. The 'scent blocker' soap, shampoo, spray and clothing does not make you 100% odorless. Not to mention you could spray down and wear these clothes and bath, etc. If you are in the field and sweating, you are putting off a scent, and not only that any trace of scent you put on your equipment, bows, arrows, backpack, etc. can be detectable by game. The best thing to do is to have a general idea of where game will be approaching and play the wind. Have the wind blowing your scent opposite of where game may be approaching, and not blowing your scent to them. I always pretend that even though I believe I am scentless, that I just got done working out, haven't taken a bath in two weeks and am going hunting :smileystooges: :biglaugh: :laughing: I set up to where my stink isn't blown into the games faces
Movement: most game animals are keen to focus on movement. You can have the best camo in the woods and still be spotted if you are moving in the slightest. The best bet is to move S-L-O-W, or in opportunistic moments (such as when game isn't looking at you) draw your bow slow, walk slow (when stalking or moving to and from stands), and while in your set up look around slowly and be cautious of sudden jerks (I am famous for this when I hear a noise). When a game animal is looking at me, I absolutely freeze, I avoid eye contact (I believe they can tell when you are looking at them) and slow my breathing.
Contrast: Although the majority of the game we hunt are considered 'color-blind' they view the world in what's known as grey-scale by which they see different variations of blacks, greys and whites which represent what we see in color. This is why most camos are patterned in your environmental colors of browns, greens, blacks, greys and whites. The best camo to have is one which blends in with the environment, for instance a woodland camo does no good on a savanna, or in the snow. Go to your spot where you sit and take notes of the colors in your area (even better behind you while you sit) and try to blend into the background.
Contour: So you've covered yourself with scentless stuff, played the wind smartly, standing as still as a statue, have camo that blends in greatly with the colors and contrasts of the environment, but however, unless you don't break up your outline, you will still be spotted. Over the countless years of being hunted by man, game animals know when something isn't right, if it looks like a man, it must be a man. You don't necessarily need to go over excessive with the ghillie, but you do need to break up that 'human' look.
These are the major factors which contribute to our success in the field. And what amazes me is how every game animal seems to have different personalities and different perceptions of their environment. I've had instances where one deer doesn't even see me, smell me or anything and then have another deer right next to it spot me in an instance! You may fool some game, but not all. You may fool an immature or young doe, but it'll be tougher to fool a wise old buck!
Do your best to blend in and maximize your advantages involving these 4 factors (I am sure there are more that I lament to mention) and you will find success!
Sorry for the lengthy post!
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I think it related to several things, biggest being movement, in this case it really does not matter what you wear they will see the movement, second is awareness (this is related to other senses, human outline - related to environment (if you are in lots of shadows with go back ground things will be much better than direct sun with no breakup behind you. I am no expert but have hunted a lot at close range, studied what animal -or what we think animals see like, and have even experimented with my dogs, and non-game animals over the year.
I must say camo is not always how we see it, it maybe plaid in the right environment or even a solid color. I know my dog does not see me the same with my kuiu vias on.
The biggest thing to remember is most camo is to attract the buyers (you the hunter) and not camouflage you from your quarry.
my thoughts
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I really believe its each animal and the "6th" sense. There are times when I am busted and no possible explanation. Some seem to walk by and never notice others bust from afar. Just my opinion.
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Camo is supposed to break up your outline or silhouette and help you to blend in with your surroundings. Nothing ever works all the time though. I know what you mean about sometimes you are invisible...sometimes you are busted before you even know game is even around lol.
Smell is definitely a huge factor in being detected....with deer, elk, bear, hogs (which if I'm not mistaken have very poor eyesight) etc. With turkey it's all about blending in.
All of that bring said, in my opinion, I think sometimes animals know they are being hunted. I don't know if it's because of our actions or our locations or a sixth sense or what, but I swear they know something is up.
I'm a logger so I'm in the woods every day, year round. A couple weeks ago I sat down on a stump just taking a break. I was wearing a tan carhartt coat and blue jeans...I just shut the saw off not two minutes before. There were 3 deer, 2 does and a spike, that walked just almost close enough for me to reach out and smack em before they noticed me.
Did you ever notice that when you go deer hunting you can almost walk close enough to a squirrel on the the ground to catch it? But when you are squirrel hunting they stay in the tops of the trees...and you dress and move in the exact same manner. I think they just know sometimes.
Speaking if squirrels, I was hunting after them two weeks ago with a longbow. I had one spotted and was waiting for him to come down the tree just a little so I could get a shot. While standing there, there was a bachelor group of 18 long beards that walked up within 20 yards of me....no camo at all and standing wide open in the middle of the woods. If I was after turkey, they would have bolted at 80 yards.
I wear camo when I hunt. It can't hurt. But nothing works all the time.
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I WILL SAY "LEAFY SUITS" OR GHILLIE WORKS, HAD A DOE WALK UP ON ME AND I MISSED HER WITH MY BOW,SHE LOOKS AT ME (IM IN MY LEAFY SUIT)AS I TAKE ANOTHER ARROW FROM MY QUIVER,DRAW THE BOW AND SHOOT HER. SHE DIED ABOUT 25 YDS. FROM ME.
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Background my man, background. If you are silouetted you look like a human to them no matter what you are wearing.
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Lions aren't deer. They have EXCELLENT forward bifocal vision. Much better than yours.
Deer have relatively poor 3-D vision because they're scanning both sides rather than forward. They will pick out movement but not necessarily shapes.
Do you have any problem spotting a man in camo once you have identified him? None at all.
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Yes I understand it doesn't work at all times and I think the best advice is some are more educated to their environment. The old wise buck or doe that is in its backyard just knows. ( I think ) The ones that have walked by blindly may have been chased into unfamiliar surroundings.
The lion was in its area and I was invading. It being a superior predator picked me out right away.
I was hoping to get more experienced input on the ghillie suits and also the carry blinds. I read of people using them on antelope and that Fred Bear used a carry blind black bear hunting so he could sit far back and still hunt up to the bait. Just a good snowy night topic.
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Originally posted by Stumpkiller:
Lions aren't deer. They have EXCELLENT forward bifocal vision. Much better than yours.
Deer have relatively poor 3-D vision because they're scanning both sides rather than forward. They will pick out movement but not necessarily shapes.
Do you have any problem spotting a man in camo once you have identified him? None at all.
X2. Had a conversation with a non-hunting vegetarian, (something I try to avoid) and after her lengthy dissertation promoting her choice I simply replied, "show me one land carnivore with their eyes on the side of their head. Our eyes are forward facing by design. We were meant to hunt and by default, eat meat".
Camo would be less effective with a lion than a deer.
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Who knows. I had a coyote running in hard and slam on the brakes at 600-700- yards out and turn the after bunners on getting out of there . I was down wind and full camo up aganst a good bushy back stop.. Have had them look right at me and did not see me at ten yards up wind and had only olive green t shirt and blue jeans on . Had a black tail doe come up and smell me while I had a yellow rain coat on. I have seen guys in full camo that stood out real well while they was standing in the wrong back ground all it takes is just a little difrent shade and you still look like a man two arms two legs standing up right. You can be in hot pink suit but if you curl up and change your form your not a human any more just a big pink glob. I do think that some animals are way smarter than others of their kind. while others are just stupid or real destperit sp. Its fun trying to find the answers. I agree with Stump killer that lion seen a man in camo.
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Turkeys have some of the toughest eyes of any animal in North America. If you set perfectly still you can fool them. But at times they can see you twitch. Camo won't let you get by with much movement and with turkeys they can pick you off sitting perfectly still just like the lion.
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I think that you have to consider that for prey animals it's not a game, its a matter of life and death. The slightest thing that doesn't seem right can set them off. The rut can change this. I once was standing in the middle of a half acre clearing talking to a guy who was smoking a cigarette and a young buck walked across with his nose to the ground like a hound not 10 yards from us. we were so amazed we almost let him go.
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Forget the camo Ed. I want to hear the rest of the charging lion story!
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Brain waves ! When you think like a predator I think animals pick it up. When you don't think about killing they don't pay you much mind. Gene wenzel mention this in his book hunting rutting white tails . Stair at your dog when he's not looking and see what happens. ? Off topic from the camo post, just thought I'd throw that one out I think all this snow is affecting my brain ! Lol
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Originally posted by Jack Shanks:
Forget the camo Ed. I want to hear the rest of the charging lion story!
No kidding.
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x3 on hearing the lion charge story.
We have some pretty spooky deer, but I've had a lot of deer stare at me in Predator or ASAT and then go back to swishing their tail.
My most interesting encounter this year - I had a facemask and Predator Fall Brown jacket and was walking up on some clover with cover around it, and a mature doe spotted my movement and started staring. I had good back cover and wind in my favor, and she proceeded to slowly get closer to check me out, moving from about 50 to 20 yards away before I decided to spook her.
I believe the camo helped, but it is not a cure-all for not getting busted, just another tool to help out. IMHO - movement, wind and cover are more important, with camo sometimes helping with cover and movement.
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Lions have eyes focused in the front, thus camo will work about as good as camo on a soldier. If the soldier isn't moving, camo can help him, but once he moves, another human will pick him up.
From a quick search on eye location on the head...
Eyes in the front of the head provide binocular vision and excellent depth perception. Most predators, whether birds or mammals, have eyes in the front of the head, allowing them to stalk and chase fleeing prey.
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some animals and it seems most predators, see us even when wearing camo. prey animals don't see like predators,
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Maybe because You SMELLED Edible?? :saywhat:
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Maybe some animals (same spieces) have better sight than others in that same spieces. And maybe some have been educated.
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You dressed up like a zebra in lion country! The lions like zebra. Add in the fact that you probably tensed up a little, bracing for impact, you are a tasty morsel.
Did you look into the eyes of the beast?
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Originally posted by swampthing:
[QB] You dressed up like a zebra in lion country! The lions like zebra. Add in the fact that you probably tensed up a little, bracing for impact, you are a tasty morsel.
^^^^^^
This...Tell us more about the charge!
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Lioness saw you, figured you were bait, and was looking for a guy in a pith helmet with a rifle.
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Originally posted by cahaba:
Turkeys have some of the toughest eyes of any animal in North America. If you set perfectly still you can fool them. But at times they can see you twitch. Camo won't let you get by with much movement and with turkeys they can pick you off sitting perfectly still just like the lion.
true.
and i have had numerous turkeys walk right past me at mere feet without seeing me while wearing ASAT leafy. it was because i was still more than anything.
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I hqave been passing on buying clothing based on camo. I have actually been wearing and buying more solid colors. I have had great luck in the treestand in solid black/brown. I want to blend in. The same reason I wear all black in my ground blind is the same reason I am wearing solids leaning up against a tree. If you are skylighted and move no matter what you wear you will be noticed. There used to be a great video out there of Dr Sceery hunting coyotes in a Santa Claus suit and they came right in. It was his belief color did not matter is was movement that was of concern.
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IMHO, we never think about texture. I see nylon and cotton twill camo shirts. Those fabrics are shiny and slick, therefore reflect light.
I have an A.C.U. shirt that I "ghillied up" just on top of the arms and shoulders for warm weather.
Recently I smeared a thin coat of mud (splotches) on the "light" areas of the shirt and pants not covered by the "ghillie stuff".
The rough texture and dull surface of the mud makes an amazing difference. I think mud splotches would help any camo clothes.
I did make a ghillie suit with burlap, the burlap is by far the best ever, the rough texture makes it disappear even at 14 yds.
I like wool too, good texture. That's why you can't see a plain brown deer, his hair diffuses a lot of light.
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^^X2
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I was sittin on a blowdown in a narrow deep bottom one jan day. We had had a lot of snow and I was in full snow camo with a hill right behind me. Three mature coyotes came by me trotting in their usual hunting gait and each one looked right through me as they continued past my position. Now the really cool part, tailing behind them was a very young pup who abruptly stopped and sat down not ten yds from my position and started to watch everything going on around him from birds to squirrels. Ha he was about as cute as any lil puppy I have ever seen. Don't know if I could have got a shot off or not, but didn't have the heart to try. If he'd been mature would have been different story. Anyway he never did see me, does camo work, I think it does. But again I think it is important that you match your surroundings and stay still! :thumbsup:
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I agree with a RecurveRookie about texture. One of my brothers and I were hunting ducks in SD. We were standing in cattails about 40 yds apart on the edge of a slough...both of us in camo head to toe including face masks. Birds coming from the other side of him flared often. From where I was standing, I could clearly see his silhouette even though he was in camoed-out and in high cattails. It was the smooth fabric of his camo and the way it reflected light. For that reason, I always try to wear a brushed polyester finish or something with even more texture. I think this is more important than pattern choice.