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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: ozy clint on June 13, 2014, 01:45:00 AM
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hey guys i started tuning my 58# border recurve (see my signiture). my first bareshaft vs BH session resulted in the bareshaft consisently hitting about 2 feet to the left of the BH at 35-40 yards. i'm right handed.
note, i draw 26" amo.
i was using the arrows that i used to shoot out of my bob lee recurve which was 57#@28". which are axis 400's. 30 5/16" BOP to nock, 250gr point, 100gr insert and a 2 1/2" 2020 footing.
now, i believe they are too stiff, and here's why-
1- obviously bareshafts are hitting left.
2- the fly better out of this bow than out of the bob lee which was 1# lighter and not near as efficient.
3- i've been through this with the bob lee and trimming until they are too short didn't make any difference.
now i'm sure alot of people wouldn't recommend trying 500's with this same arrow setup but i'm at a loss with trying to tune and a lighter spine is the only thing i haven't tried yet. so i was going to buy some 500's and give it a go.
the only other possiblity that crossed my mind is this- could they be so weak as to cause a consistent stiff indication, even out of the bob lee? i'm doubtful of this because trimming them until they were too short didn't help the problem.
i'm coming to the conclusion that perhaps i need alot weaker arrows than what everyone else seems to use or think i should use.
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Yeah, they fly like a stiff arrow but I would have thought they would be just the opposite. Have you tried a light point, say 125gr?
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Given the weight you have up front, I think .500s will be too soft with the same point weight.
What happens to the bare shafts at closer range, say 20 yards? Any small error in form will throw the arrow off substantially at 30-40 yards. Even a slight crosswind at that distance.
One other thought, is your bow cut past center? Axis are very small diameter shafts. If the bow is cut a lot past center, they can be pointing inside the string rather than outside of it. When this happens, they do strange things with a finger release. Could be bouncing off the side plate. That would make some noise though.
:dunno:
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Dealing with higher FOCs can cause you to pull your hair out.
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I would try a lighter point, just to see can't hurt.
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I would force them to be weaker by using a heavier point. This will confirm if they are weak for stiff. I've had too many fool me with a false stiff or weak.
Mike
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I agree with trying a lighter point.I always verify with point weight before any cutting.In fact,I would start with a 100 gr point to see if anything moves,then go from there.If nothing changes then,you are probably going in the wrong direction.
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I'm in the change weight to gain "control" of the shaft camp... Then figure out your final solution. I have the full range of arrow tip weights (75-300grain), plus I have nock couplers that allow me to change that end or add wraps, etc... I agree also that high F.O.C. can make things a lttle more tricky as you need to ensure nock point is fairly optimized before you finalize your setup...
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the bow is cut 5/16" past center but i have padded out the riser to ensure the arrow sits a little outside of center. the hex6 limbs are really torsionally stiff. could it be that they just don't allow as much sideways flex on release resulting in a stiffer reaction than 'normal'?
i shall try some 100gr points and report back.
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Ozy,
When bareshafting its a pain to shorten shafts or add point weight to confirm results. You've been shooting a long time so I'm sure you could pull this off...
Stand at fifteen yards and purposely overdraw a few inches and check the flight, then also short draw a few inches and compare.
I too was worried about the stiff shaft hitting the riser so I short drew and got an even more pronounced stiff reaction, overdrew and got better flight, thus ruling out striking the riser. Give it a try, you're a good enough shot to do this.
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I would recommend trying a lighter point. It sounds to me like you are getting a false stiff reading by an overly weak arrow. I would definately not recommend the 500 spine arrow. I myself shoot a 60# @ 28" black widow longbow and my draw length is 27.5" my arrows that tune perfect from it are arrow dynamics trad lites with 72 grain brass inserts and 200 grain points cut to 29 3/8". The spine on those shafts is .375 but they are tapered so they are pretty close to a 400 spine. I would definately think cutting the shaft down some or a lighter point would help. The only thing with your arrow that might and I mean might make it stiff is the 2 1/2" footing but that would not be the first thing I would change. The other thing to watch for is torque in the string or bowhand as it can cause all sorts of weird readings when tuning.
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i tried 100gr points today and it seemed to get worse.
bareshafts land left but are nock left in the target.
surely you can't go from overly weak giving a false stiff reading (250gr points) to stiff reading (100gr points) with only 150gr difference in point weight. that's a very narrow window.
tuning :banghead:
nothing seems to change whatever i do.
340's maybe? would a 400 cut to 28" act as stiff as a full length 340? i've been down to 28" and similar results.
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I've seen a few guys with bows cut way past center have problems switching to smaller diameter shafts. I'd make the sideplate thicker for a little testing before I messed with the arrow. I'd say bring it all the way to center and see how it goes, then reduce back past center to tune.
Since your true draw is 26" and your BOP is over 30" that means you have 4" plus tip length hanging out past the riser. Seems like that could play a little havoc too.
On a side note, I shot a few 2020s into some plate steel on Friday night, I can cut what is still straight into 2.5" sections and send them to you if you want them for footings. PM me an address if you to.
Good luck!
Thom
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Hey Ozzy, I have a Border not quite as much weight as you
But close enough. My set up is a Victory 350 shaft 30.5"
Long, I have a 29" draw. 100 gr. brass inserts, 250 gr. head
Up front. I have shot this same set up in Africa 2 times, amazing results.
I think your under spined, I know I could never get your set up to work for me. Try simplifying your tuning. Just get the bare shaft shooting good at 5 yards, you got to get it right up front before you try it at longer ranges. I never worry about
How it flies at longer ranges,I never shoot that far. But if you get it flying right at close range it will fly good at longer ranges as well.
You said the knock was left when you shoot, that's telling you it's a weak shaft. For a right hand shooter, stiff is knock right, weak is knock left. I'm sure you know this, but sometimes we
Tend to overlook the obvious.
Get a stiffer shaft, start out at 5 yards and see which way shaft hits. Go from there.
RW
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Would suspect that a Victory HV300 would permit favorable results.
Note: a HV300 with 400 gns up front may yield a total wt near 625 gns.
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nock left is weak. hitting left is stiff.
:confused:
i'm going to try some 340's i have. i'll continue to trim my 400's and see if they come good. it would be handy if the 400 worked since it would be a little lighter than it is now at 680gr. a 340 is going to give me a heavier arrow than i'd prefer for this setup.
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http://elitearrows.com/proper-arrow/
I prefer a paper test, rather than a bale, etc because of the possibility of a false reading. You should be about 6 ft. from the paper, on a frame, (wood or cardboard) suspended or mounted in front of the bale or backstop. You are right a left nock is stiff for most RH shooting.
However, First the nocking point needs to be correct. Then sprinkle tac powder on the sight windows in front and back of the rest to make sure the shaft does not hit anywhere. Then follow the procedure in the link. Although it is for wood arrows, testing is the same.
Some might consider using four different length arrows (4 sets of three), and each trimmed 1/4", (29", 29.25, 29.5, 29.75 and 30")try to keep your weight setup simple to add and subtract. One size bushing, and three or four different weighted points.
Remember, if you shoot a bare shaft next to one fletched with the same length, and weight, the stiff bare shaft will impact the paper, to the left aiming at the same spot and weak will be to the right of the fletched arrow. The stiffer bare shaft (shorter shaft) will be furthest to the left. The tear in the paper will be to left, as the nock is left of the point hole.
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One more point, the 2" 2020 reinforced tip makes the shaft stiffer than your shaft with just the bushing, and point. You might be better off with a longer bushing, if available, or just more or less weighted point.
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i just tried a full length 340 with the 100gr insert, 250gr point and same footing. bareshaft only, no time before dark to fletch another one. the bareshaft flies better than the 400 i've been shooting. windage is good and not hitting far left like the 400. it generally flies nock right on route to target at 10 yards.
will fletch one up tonight and shoot bare v BH tomorrow.
thanks for the help guys...
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i've got a 400 here that is 27.5" long. this is my minimum length, so i'll try it too
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Ozy, there are many reasons your arrow could be hitting
Left, only one reason the knock will fly left. Just tune the arrow
To fly slightly stiff at close range, fletch the shaft and the arrow will fly perfect for you.
If your worried about the total shaft weight, consider a lighter
Shaft like the Victory. It's plenty stiff and you can get some
Obscene FOC readings. They work, guaranteed.....
RW
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I'm having almost exactly the same problem with a current longbow. Im paying close attention..
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i shot the 27.5" 400 today, fletched with a BH. it shoots about 1' to the right of where i'm aiming. i don't have a bareshaft to compare this to.
i tried a full length 340 and compared to the 30" 400 it flys worse.
now i'm confused. why would a 27.5" 400 shoot the the right of a 30" 400? i just made it stiffer!! this is what frustrates me, i change something and the result seems to be opposite of what it should be.
maybe the right tune is somewhere between 30" and 27.5"???
the 340 and the 400 both seem to come out of the bow nock right then straigten up after 10 yards. they fishtail at long range though.
i'm really pulling my hair out here.
it doesn't at all feel like there's any progress being made. results seem so random after changing variables and certainly not like the text books- "change this and this will happen"
:mad:
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Clint i thing your are way under spined cut that 340 down .Unless you have build that border out to center shot from the 5/16 under with all that weight out the front you will have spine probs with the 340 at 30inch .
What i found was when the shaft was under spine with all the UFOC they did strange things .
Hope it helps Thanks Shane
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the arrow is sitting outside center. i've padded it out with 3 layers of velcro.
thanks for the oppinion on the 340. i'll trim and shoot and trim and shoot it tomorrow. "strange things" sums it up in a nutshell. i'm going to have a eureka moment soon and i'll know for future where to begin with spine. sounds as if i've always been too weak.
thanks shane.
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Ozzy ran these numbers on an older Stu caculator, didn't exactly know all particulars.
BBD, 58#@28" draw 26", -3/16 center, FF 16 strand, 70 Dyn. Spine:
Axis 340, 28.25", 250 PW, 100 I.W., 34g F.W., 12 N.W., 3x5 feathers, 70.8 Dyn. Spine
If you draw 58#@26" arrow would be 27.750. The 3/16's past center is the lowest the calculator would go. I had a BBD ulta w/hex 4 limbs 26" draw, I had to increase spine (600 to 500). Good Luck!
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One thing that might help your confusion (or maybe just make you more confused) is understanding the difference between bare shaft flight and fletched arrow flight. Throughout my archery life, I've heard hints that shooting a stiffer shaft may (or may not) move the POI of a fletched arrow to the right, even though it will always move the POI of a bare shaft (baring deflection off the strike plate) to the left.
I heard this first from Fred Asbell, second from a bowyer friend who was watching me shoot, and most recently from Rick Welch. I ignored the others, thinking they had either misspoken or I misheard. However, Rick proved it to me on his range by having me blind shoot arrows of different spine and noting where they hit.
My theory for this anomaly is that a weaker spined shaft bends more when it is shot, as we all know. This is exhibited with a bare shaft as a nock left flight, which generally results in a POI to the right of the point of aim. A fletched shaft has essentially the same initial response to being shot. However, the fletches quickly correct the nock left condition and the arrow proceeds on more or less of a straight path to the target. However, the path for a weaker shaft is left of the path for a stiffer shaft, since the weaker shaft had more initial deflection, which sometimes results in a POI for a weaker fletched arrow to the left of the POI for a stiffer fletched arrow. And sometimes not, depending on how quickly the fletched arrow recovers from the initial nock left deflection.
I have used this knowledge to help correct a left POI problem when the usual remedy, trying an arrow with a weaker shaft, made things worse. In that case, I try an arrow with a stiffer shaft and that sometimes solves the problem.
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http://elitearrows.com/proper-arrow/
I prefer a paper test, rather than a bale, etc because of the possibility of a false reading. You should be about 6 ft. from the paper, on a frame, (wood or cardboard) suspended or mounted in front of the bale or backstop. You are right a left nock is stiff for most RH shooting.
However, First the nocking point needs to be correct. Then sprinkle tac powder on the sight windows in front and back of the rest to make sure the shaft does not hit anywhere. Then follow the procedure in the link. Although it is for wood arrows, testing is the same.
Some might consider using four different length arrows (4 sets of three), and each trimmed 1/4", (29", 29.25, 29.5, 29.75 and 30")try to keep your weight setup simple to add and subtract. One size bushing, and three or four different weighted points.
Remember, if you shoot a bare shaft next to one fletched with the same length, and weight, the stiff bare shaft will impact the paper, to the left aiming at the same spot and weak will be to the right of the fletched arrow. The stiffer bare shaft (shorter shaft) will be furthest to the left. The tear in the paper will be to left, as the nock is left of the point hole.
The above has been proven true by others.
The process above will work, but I would not build out the rest with several layers of velco. You do not want to introduce a soft plunger style rest in the testing. It will complicate the process.
When testing, I have found that vinyl electrical tape which comes in a heavier grade than standard electrical tape works great. Just add a few layers until the shaft is left of center. As you get into your testing you can add more. Two more points, do all test with field points, only, and assemble a test kit, borrow, or buy. A test kit will have different lengths of the same shaft, so you can change the weight up front. With 4 sets of three arrows, you can find the best flight. Start with 400's.
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i tried 340's from full length down to 28.5", trimming and test shooting. no difference in BH flight. it still shoots CRAP! i can get them all to hit where i'm aiming, that's not the problem, the problem is they always have a kick in the flight. i feel like i need to change something major that i haven't changed yet. i had the same problem with my bob lee- i'm getting side plate wear. maybe i'm getting a bouncing arrow no matter what i do to the arrows? this might explain why i don't see any changes in BH flight when i make even radical changes in spine, it's being cancelled out by a contact problem perhaps. i just can't see how i can seemingly shoot any spine to a spot and get the same kick in flight. is there something in my form that somehow allows me to still shoot okay but gives me poor flight?
you guys who change point weight and see a difference in your tuning- :notworthy:
i could shoot everything from a crowbar to a 600 spine and they would fly the same. :banghead:
i'm tempted to try a weatherest or something out of desparation. there's got to be something causing a problem that overides everything i change in my arrows.
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clint that is all i use is a weather rest .
I think u are still under spined with how you are set up..
The prob with the soft velcro is it is like a soft pressure button you will need something hard there like leather i had a sim prob and know mater what arrow i used i were still under spined...i bet this is your prob i did think of it untill tonite...
This why i dont like bows cut past centre if you like using UFOC ...
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you might be onto something shane. after todays session i'm convinced i've got to change something on the shelf. it's ridiculous that such big changes in arrow spine don't seem to effect flight, especially when everyone says they see changes with different point weights.
i might try the hard leather strike plate like you say and see how i go. failing that i might try a weather rest.
clint
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Is there any chance that you are torquing your bow with your bow hand? It's hard to imagine all this tuning you are trying and still seeing the ssame constant bad flight. Maybe it's something you are doing, as opposed to the arrow spine?
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As for form, if the string is hitting a shirt, etc. or if the bow hand is rotated to the right will cause the arrow to slap. The release needs to be clean/smooth.
There was an old article published on tuning carbon, with variable length shafts, bare and with feathers, it was very good. If you do not have a copy, I can look and email a pdf copy if you can read pdf?
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It is your side plate. It is too thick, that is why everything is left.
I had the exact opposite problem with a bow that was cut past center. Skinny carbons all shot right, no matter the dynamic spine.
Replaced thin leather strike pad with thicker leather and went to bigger diameter Victory arrows. Tuned right in and shoots fantastic.
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i'm going to change the strike plate to leather but still pad it out so the arrow sits just out from center. if i just put a single layer of leather on, the arrow will be sitting inside center with the bow being 5/16" past center and skinny shafts. failing that i might try a weather rest style rest.
why cut a bow 5/16" past center when you have to pad it out anyway? is it just so that fat arrows can be brought near to center?
thanks for the help guys.
i hope it's just the soft, fuzzy, 3 layer, velcro side plate that is causing me trouble. when i think about it i always used to use leather but changed to velcro because it was easier to instal being self adhesive. i never had this tuning trouble in the 'old days'. i hope it's just a coincidence that i've overlooked in my frustration!
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Ozy...Have had my best bare shaft flight ever with the following set-up...even robinhooded a bare shaft to bare shaft at 15 yards...excellent flight out to 40 yards...likely considerably much further if I were a more competent archer.
[email protected] 28"s...shelf-1/8" past center
Shaft...Victory HV350...28 1/2"...100 gn insert...300 gn head...611 gn total
Note: shot thru a doe full length from sternum...6-8" exit inner back leg...300 gn Big 3.
Would more than pleased to send you a HV300 with 100 gn insert to give it a go...note: a HV300 with 400 gns up front may yield a total wt near 625 gns... be prepared for excessive target wear.
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i changed my strike plate to leather and packed it out so the arrow was sitting a little outside center. flight with my original 30" 400 axis shafts is a little better. as i shaved the leather down to bring the arrow closer to center flight got better. the arrow is as close to center as i care to go now without risking going past center.
how is it that flight gets better by moving the arrow closer to center? that means the arrows i have are stiff and this goes against all good advice here. also i've shot these same arrows out of my 70# limbs and flight is overall better than than on the 58# limbs. again suggesting too stiff. the other thing is i have never had a bareshaft land to the right of a fletched shaft. even if they are grossly weak and showing false stiff when i make them stiffer or change to a stiffer spine they continue to land to the left of fletched shafts. i'm making a stiff shaft stiffer and getting the same results. if they are grossly weak there should be a point were they begin to land right and come in to line as i continue to trim but this just isn't happening. they all land left!
when i overdraw they tend to fly better too.
some 500's will be ordered soon. i feel compelled to eliminate the one variable i have yet to try- weaker shafts.
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Clint, no way the 500's will be the ticket for you. What about brace height differences, have you looked at that? I hate to mention it too because I'm sure you've thought about it but are your nocks too tight on the string?
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checked all that. don't think it's a brace height issue cause i've had the same problem with two different bows.
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if 500's aren't the go, how can i get a shaft to show weak? i've shot a 28" 340 with 350gr upfront and it lands to the left indicating stiff but it is apparently 'false stiff'.
if i need 300's for my 58# limbs i might as well junk my 70# limbs because there isn't an arrow made that will shoot out them.
what bewilders me is i can't get a true weak reading only 'false weak' readings landing to the left. there is no bell curve happening here.
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Hi Ozy,
I sympathize with your frustration and have found that when I follow a set of steps, and eliminate the variables things go much smoother. I would refer you to Elite's website on tuning. I also start with the bowyer's recommended string (material and No. strands), string height, when setting the nocking point. I pick one or two arrows and start with their recommended brace height, on the low side, set a nocking point and shoot fletched arrows into a bale or paper target in front of a bale. I gradually increase the string height, 10 twists will raise the height about 1/4". I then build the rest out, with electrical tape, cut in 1" lengths until I get a favorable results. I am trying to find the spot where the bow is quietest, and gives the best flight.
Once all that is done then I will try paper tuning with bare shafts and fletched arrows. I think, it is easy to want to skip the early steps and jump right to the bare shaft, or bare shaft with BH. Don't it will only get confusing.
Next, have someone stand behind you while you shoot some fletched arrows, that can see what the arrow is doing when it leaves the bow. If you are looking, just focus on the spot and keep both eyes open and see if you can pick it up white or light colored fletching.
If it is possible start with 500 spine, to confirm or reject that arrow. Then the 400, before going to the 340, etc with 160 - 200 gr. points. The lighter points will show up as strong or weak, where a really heavy point might not. Go slow, and make some notes as you go. Good luck.
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If it where me, I would have started with full length 340's and 300's, with various tip weights and dropped the footing until I had a perfectly tuned shaft. My A&H is 48#@28 cut 3/16 past center and I shoot 340's out of it with 175 grain up front. They fly perfect!
But what do I know!
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Ozy, you say you don't think it's a brace height problem because you've had the problem with two different bows. It's possible your brace height was too low on both. What is your brace height?
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Ozy,I think you are jumping around changing too many things.It can get very confusing.I don't shoot bows as efficient as the Border but my draw weights are similar to yours at your draw and now that you have built out the side plate,centershot is similar.
With a 30",.340 GT,I need 400 grs up front.Cut to 28 5/16",I need 450 grs up front.
I know that .340 and .350 shafts are what I want for my setups and when I tune,I install a 100 gr insert,right off the bat and then tune only by changing point weight.I use a selection of points ranging from 100 to 350 grs,most are in 25 gr intervals.It takes about 15 minutes to get very close to perfect tune,because I am only changing point weight.
After that,I could change shaft length if I wanted to but I verify everything with point weight before changing anything else.
I think with your new sideplate and a 28" shaft,you will need more up front weight.If you have a longer .340 shaft,like 30-32" you could try that but only change one thing at a time.
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orion- the brace on the border is 6 3/4". on the bob lee it was at 8".
jimB- more point weight isn't an option. it'll make all the heads i have obsolete and my total arrow weight will up over 12-13gr/#.
i'll try a full length 340.
here's a question- is a 28" 400 as stiff as a full length 340"?
i played around with my form a little and found i might be torquing the string. when i made a conscious effort not to flight was alot better. it was uncomfortable to twist my hand though so i can't the bow less instead for the same result. they still fishtail a little sometimes though and i want to confirm whether they are still a little weak but it's been really windy here for a last week and i haven't had a chance.
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I haven't followed all of the replies and answers, but have you tried the shafts without the 2 1/2" footing?
I'm nowhere near your setups, but I did play around a bit with 3555s and 5575s and some footings. I found when I make the footing longer than 1" or so, it changes my arrow's dynamic spine a lot more than I expected toward the stiff side.
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Interesting point Bladepeek. I've experienced the same and reduced footings to less than a half inch
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Originally posted by ozy clint:
here's a question- is a 28" 400 as stiff as a full length 340"?
I would say no. My best guesstimation would be a 29" to 29.5" .340 would be the same as a 28" .400, as long as everything remains the same, same arrow, same tip weight, same bow.
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You need to get your shaft on the same center line as your riser. For example, if your shafts are 5/16 in diameter, your strike plate needs to be 5/32 past center, half of 5/16 is 5/32. This will put your shaft on the same center line as your riser. When these two come in line with each other, your bow is at it's peak performance and will shoot the stiffest shaft possible. Anything outside of this will take a weaker shaft to clear the riser.
There is a reason this is important. Because you will know what the stiffest shaft it will shoot, and you now have a bench mark, or a reference point to tune from. And it will also bring you closer in your relationship with your bow.
If all else fails, you will have to start over and keep it simple.
Just my opinion, i'm probably wrong!
Good luck.
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so i tried again today. my 1st shot was with my normal 30" 400 spine bareshaft. it missed the whole 5'x3' bale! way to left with wild flight. then i realised i hadn't screwed a point on it. really stiff result. i thought, "i just made this shaft really stiff and it got way worse, lets try the other way".
so i put a 425gr point on it. (250gr point, 50gr wood screw adapter on a 125gr steel adapter) for 525gr upfront.
well the 1st bare shaft was the best i've seen a bareshaft fly. no fishtailing just a little nock high. 2nd shot, same!!!
tried it with a fletched BH. WOW! that's how arrows are supposed to fly. dart like straight to the spot. no dart every now and then, but everytime!
question is will a 500 spine do the same thing with my normal 350gr upfront. i hope so.
don't ask me why a 400 at 30" flys great with 525gr up front out of a 58# bow. i don't care as long as it does. now to try a 500 and get the total weight down to around 650gr.
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That's great.It will be very interesting to see what the 500's do.Judging from the results you just got with the 400's and that much up front weight,it should be doable.
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Use 3 Rivers dynamic spine calculator tool and it will help you see how close you are. It has shown itself to be very accurate.
Here is the link:
http://www.3riversarchery.com/spinecalculator.asp
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Glad you worked it out. Are you still using the 3" footing?
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Oz,
After reading your last post, you said, the 400 spine with 525 gr tip/wt, fletched few like darts when fletched and you got good results with a bare shaft; so why are you asking about 500 spine with 350 grains? Maybe I am missing something here. :clapper: :archer2:
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i want to shoot 350gr upfront since this suits all my heads. either 100gr insert and 250gr points or 50gr insert and 300gr points. on a 500 spine this will give me about 650gr total mass. the 400 with the 525gr upfront, while it flys good weighs 850gr! 58#@28" drawn to 26".
the 2.5" footing is still there.
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i just used that calculator. bow spine 77# arrow spine 22#. that's with the 400's with 525gr up front.
:laughing:
as long as they fly good i don't care.
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I haven't used the 3R calculator but on Stu's,high FOC arrows don't compute.The calculator always shows the working setups to be too weak.
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Originally posted by JimB:
I haven't used the 3R calculator but on Stu's,high FOC arrows don't compute.The calculator always shows the working setups to be too weak.
Same here. When I started going to lighter shafts I began to see how arrows are supposed to fly.
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The 3R calculator is simply an older version of Stu's...why not contact Border Archery and describe to them what you are experiencing...they can also explain why they cut their risers so far past centre
DDave