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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: dragonheart on July 06, 2014, 10:29:00 AM
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Spray or handgun? What do you guys carry? I am leaning towards a Smith .41 mag. What kinds of holsters do you use?
Anyone have experience using spray? We never carried it when I was backpacking in my younger years, my dad always had a handgun. Thoughts?
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If you lean towards a handgun, go on www.customsixguns.com (http://www.customsixguns.com) and see gunsmith John Linebaugh's work with Ruger Blackhawks and the .45 Colt Cartridge.
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I pack a .40 Glock in a holster that I slip through my shoulder strap so the butt rides forward. Just my personal choice.
It has been my experience that a Bear with its adrenalin pumping is hard to stop.I am under no illusions of stopping a charging Bear with a handgun. So in the end it is piece of mind.
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RMEF's Bugle magazine had an article last year (I think) that covered this topic really well. What it came down to is that spray is more effective and easier to use.
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If I could pack a handgun during CA bow season it would be my 3" Smith&Wesson 44 mag.
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I have .41 Smith and Wesson, N-frame, 4" barrel that I can use. I am on a budget and looking for a side holster. Thoughts?
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I pack a Ruger .480 with a 5" barrel. Loaded with hard cast and heavy. Will get full lengthwise penetration if needed. John packs the same although he has a new Linebaugh .475 coming.
Mike
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The best defense isn't spray or a handgun. It's knowledge and awareness.
Grizzlies vs. black. Coastal vs. interior. Remote bears versus bears that have regular human contact. Nature of contact. Bear avoidance. All of these things should come up before asking spray/vs. handgun.
Read Dr. Stephen Herrero's work. Find out about bear densities and habituation where you are hunting.
The simple statistical fact is the drive to where you are hunting is more likely to kill you than a bear.
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I understand what you are saying about knowledge, and I understand there is a very unlikely chance of needing this, but I would like to be prepared if I get in a bad situation with a bear or other predator.
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Spray we are not allowed to carry hand guns.
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I never worry in black bear country. For griz I have carried both but, lean toward the handgun (.40Glock like Stickbow). A lot of the places I hunt, black bears where griz are also present, it is so windy I don't know if I'd hit the bear or myself. I also feel that even if the bear is full of adrenaline, I will be too. And regardless of caliber, I'll have 15 chances to make it stop.
I also agree with the awareness. Be bear aware.
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These discussions are always interesting, the Americans (no offence) seem to have an unnaturally high fear of critters. Maybe it doesn't seem like to you guys but we notice it a lot in the discussions. I don't know where this fear comes from as some states have lots of bears and cougars. Small things are a bigger threat than carnivores; spiders, snakes, mosquitoes with West Nile fever, ticks with Lyme disease. These are the things that can really mess us up.
It's been proven time and again that spray is more effective than bullets but alas it's not as macho and folks will argue in favour of guns in the face of this knowledge. I'll admit that at night in the tent there's usually some form of firearm as I don't want to unleash the spray in the tent. During the daytime I keep my can of spray within easy reach, not in the bottom of my pack.
As mentioned earlier knowledge is the best defence, keep a clean camp and keep your whits about you while skulking through the bush. Especially be vigilant round running water where the bears can't hear your approach. Know what the food sources are for the time of year and be careful in a patch of food such as berries, or around dead carcasses. My only serious grizzly encounter occurred on a dead moose, a lesson I've tucked away and I'll never forget.
Every time you see bear sign remember that it doesn't mean you've gotta flee the area. Bears and cougars watch us way more than we realise, and any of us who've hunted much can remember finding their track on top of ours. Enjoy the outdoors but don't get all twisted up worrying about animals.
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Dragonheart,your .41 will work.A load like Federal's Castcore would be good.Simply Rugged makes a pancake holster that is very popular.
Black bears and grizzlies react entirely differently.If you light up a black bear,he will be down or gone-fast.It's the nature of the beast.Grizzlies are different in that sense.Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore has a good article on this and he's a guy who has walked the walk.
Spray is good but there are times when it can incapacitate you,like in a tent or with a strong wind in your face.We hunt into the wind and if you surprise a grizzly,it is probably because you have the wind in your face.If it is a very strong wind,it could get the spray in your face.
I don't worry about being able to handle a black bear and doubt I will ever need to but it pays to be aware.Grizzlies are a way more serious matter and if I spent a good bit of time in hardcore grizzly country,I would probably want to carry both.
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Handgun helped in this situation to deter the charging bear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuYs8Dnef3s&list=PLBC86361DA8F07B73&index=6
Just asking about opinions and options to be prepared.
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S&W 357 Air Lite I holster it through one of the nylon straps on my large frame pack in an easy to reach place. And in an accessory pocket in my day pack that happens to be on my hip, very convenient.
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I'm guessing calgarychef you haven't snuck up on any grizzly before. Griz make even me feel a sense of mortality and I don't scare easy. I don't tote a gun or spray, but the guys I hunt with do and I'm pretty fast at running. 45-70 and ammo is easy to find.
As for black bears, the day might come when one stands its ground when I try to get a shot but I'll worry about that afterwords.
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Calgary, about the only time I carry is in the tent, and frankly, I am not keen on the spray making it thru to the other side if the bear is standing on me. I know that the chances are slim that I will ever get attacked by a bear, but you know. . .
Growing up I read all the stories about the one in a billion situation where the bear comes into camp and drags away one of my mates, to be eaten within earshot, while everybody else, of course unprotected, climbs a tree and can do nothing but listen. I don't get to read about all the other campers who had no issues at all.
Sorry, that ain't gonna happen here. I will have SOMETHING with which to try. A stick, a spear, a gun, bear spray. . whatever.
I don't (yet) hunt grizzly country. I am more concerned with a cougar than a black bear where I trek.
Chuckc
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These guys had bear spray and got charged several times. Interesting that he squeaked his bike breaks and the bear charged.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuYs8Dnef3s&list=PLBC86361DA8F07B73&index=6
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From what I have read spray is much more effective in stopping a bear charge/attack in large part that few if any can bring a handgun to bear (pun not intended) in time and with enough accuracy and bear loads make it even worse allowing no follow up shot due to recoil and operator proficency/panic.
Whereas the spray requires no skill to fog the charge and enough proof of its effectiveness is out there now it being very effective stopping attacks almost 100% if not 100% effective when used.
I think the biggest hurdle is one of faith- its hard to put your life in the hands of a spray bottle when a gun seems so much more lethal, but its proven they are not because even a fatal shot will not stop a grizz most of the time before he/she has ripped on you while a spray stops them.
Using either would be pretty hairy given the circumstances leading to that decision.
Joshua
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I spend about 20 days in deep grizzly country each year during our moose hunt. The area has a good population of bear as the state now allows locals two and they can now use bait.
That being said, we've seen bear each year we've been there and the closest was about a mile away.
I still will carry a large pistol when hunting and have it under my cot at night. Spray won't help much when he comes through the tent wall. I have a lot of respect for grizzlies and have more then my share of close encounters over the years.
I feel safer with the gun.
Mike
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Thanks for the insight Mike.
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Where are you going?
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I've spent a lot of time in brownie country and when crossing alder choked canyons on say Kodiak, I carry a shotgun with double 00 and slugs with my bow on my back.
I only started doing this after jumping a bedded bear at close range. I think mostly they want nothing to do with you but it's a sow and cubs that throws that out the window.
This may tick a few folks off but I think the F and G depts and many others glorify the spray and don't want folks putting bullets in those bears. One year I was in Ak, and the outward bound type youth group had a kid eaten- the bear came in to them cooking, they sprayed it,it ran off for a bit and came back and either killed the kid or seriously wounded him and a couple others I think(it's been awhile)bi think if you aren't a great hg shot, carry the spray, otherwise, the bang alone from a pistol has been enough to turn many bears.
If I was using the spray, I would be sure it shoots a long consistent stream for at least 20-30 seconds- some of them don't. Any handgun under a .41 mag is worthless. The .44 mag 300 gr Hornadys would be my choice in a handgun.
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This is the list which I created, and which led me to decide on a good, reliable firearm:
Can haze a threatening bear and possibly stop a charge? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can wound or kill a bear? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can defend before bear is within 20'? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can use during the night in tent? Gun-yes. Spray-not advised.
Can reload after using? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can ignore wind direction when using? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can practice with it? Gun-yes. Spray-does anyone practice?
Can fly it on aircraft? Gun-yes. Spray-not advised.
Can survival hunt with it? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can signal for help with it? Gun-yes. Spray-no.
Can be used without much practice? Gun-no. Spray-yes.
Can be bought at destination? Gun-no. Spray-yes.
Can be used in residential areas? Gun-no. Spray-yes.
Costs much less to acquire? Gun-no. Spray-yes.
Relies on compressed air? Gun-no. Spray-yes.
There are other considerations of course. I also asked a good number of guys who've spent a lot of time in Alaska's backcountry what they prefer. The overwhelming choice was a good firearm.
Something to think about. If you were injured or otherwise forced to spend a few days in a survival situation in the backcountry; and if you had to immediately choose between a single 12 oz can of pepper spray and a really good gun...which item would you choose?
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i think it's a matter of preference and legalities. when i lived in the sates, i carried both and often left the handgun(ruger .44 mag) at camp due to the weight and packed my spray during the day. up here in canada, not legal to pack a handgun, so we carry the spray, never once needed either. had more than my share of close encounters with griz, blackies, cougars, bobs, even nutcase squirrels.
although, i have used the spray while camping with my family. on a couple drunk punks who were harrasing my sis-in-law. the didn't take kindly to me "manhandling" them off of her in the brush and one of them pulled a knife. they didn't like me after the spray.
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I don't hunt Alaska...but I do hunt hogs and occasionally some pretty big ones. I carry a 40 cal Glock when tracking a wounded hog.
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I have to agree with Calgary and jhg. Folks have an unhealthy fear of bears. The Bear self-defense studies clearly showed that more folks were maimed and killed when using a gun for self defense as opposed to spray. If memory serves, there were no cases of persons being killed by a bear when using spray. Most folks aren't good pistol shots under the best of conditions. They're even worse under the high stress of a bear charge.
I carried a short barreled shotgun with slugs and buckshot when I hunted moose in Alaska 20 years ago. If I had it to do over, I'd probably have a gun in camp, but pretty sure I would have a can of spray on my belt instead of a pistol when hunting.
Of course, it isn't an either or situation. The bear paranoid can carry both (but they get a little heavy.) If the spray doesn't do the job, or the bear comes back repeatedly, can always revert to the gun as the bear is chewing on you. :bigsmyl:
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Every bear I have flashed in the face with a laser (3) has made an immediate panic escape. Almost makes me think the 12 gauge it's mounted on isn't even necessary. Almost..
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Keep in mind that the comparative statistics are somewhat skewed as guns are discharged when things get very serious and spray is often deployed with any type encounter,many of those at curious bears that got too close and weren't committed charges.
I'm not knocking bear spray.It has it's place and as Beendare stated,a lot of government employees are taught the company line and that is for civilians to carry spray instead of firearms.
The biggest negative for me is that the spray is a one shot deal and victims have been incapacitated by their own or a friends spray,during an attack.
Kevin Dill's post is worth reading again.
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that will make a man stain his shorts wont it!!
Larrydawg
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I read some where that Black Bears actually account for more fatalities than Grizzlies do ... it was in an article on Black Bear attacks, and it is more likely you'll be attacked by an OLD boar than a female ...
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I've been a part of these debates many times. I think it usually comes down to a guy's personal decision and what he prefers. Sometimes there is logic applied, but often the decision seems based on something heard or said regarding the pros and cons of guns or spray. Believing naively that any defense is vastly better than the other just might get you hurt.
I don't like packing a pistol. Spray weighs less. I usually have both with me on a trip. I've seen the Eichler video proving the persuasive power of a concussive blast from a large handgun in stopping a full-on charge. I'd like to see something similar showing a big hot-headed sow grizzly being shut down cold with a charge of pepper spray. I believe it works. Works better than a firearm? Ask the guys who are experts and who have access to the MOST effective defenses available. You would be hard-pressed to find an Alaska Wildlife Trooper trusting his spray more than a shotgun or stout handgun if risking an imminent bear attack.
Whatever you use, know its limitations. Know how to deploy it quickly and instinctively. Unholstering a handgun or spray can be awkward for the unpracticed. A bear isn't going to polish his nails while waiting for someone to get ready. If it never gets discharged, neither form of defense will be of any help. Practice.
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Originally posted by Jim Wright:
If you lean towards a handgun, go on www.customsixguns.com (http://www.customsixguns.com) and see gunsmith John Linebaugh's work with Ruger Blackhawks and the .45 Colt Cartridge.
Good website. Go there and click the "writings" link and read the article on the .45 colt. That was my choice in AK.
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Good information here,as well:
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=108
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I am always surprised how many folks mention the .41 in these threads. I don't carry often when I bowhunt but when I do it's an old blackhawk in .41 that I've had over 30 years, in a simple leather belt holster. It would be nice to have a freedom arms in 480, but more likely will switch to a Glock in 10mm.
Get a 40-something caliber handgun with stout bullets.
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Spray is fine under the right conditions but a hard cross wind or a wind in your face effects its performance.
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I'm in the "Knowledge is the best defense" Camp. When I lived in Alaska (11 years), I always carried a .44 MAG. Knowing full well it wouldn't stop a bear attack. Just made me feel better and would come in handy ina survival situation. If you've ever tried to hit a running bear with a handgun, you'll find that it's a pretty difficult thing to do. Especially when it's coming at you! We used to have a saying when I lived in AK for all of the folks that carried handguns for Bear Protection. Make sure that you file off the front sights and hammer. That way, when the bear takes it away from you and sticks it where the sun don't shine, it won't hurt near as much!
Now, I carry all the time when hunting in Texas, mostly for the 2 legged varmits (meth heads and illegals) But when I go to Quebec Black bear hunting it's nothing but my bow. My how times have changed.
LD
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Some good info in this latest issue of Montana Outdoors on this very topic. I'd suggest reading it.
http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/articles/2014/bearspray.htm#.U7qoc7tOX4g
Knowledge is the best defense...not just what to do, but "why" bears charge in specific situations, and how to defend or prevent each.
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Great article.
And the only "agenda" that spray advocates have IMO, is to educate people and make it safer for them in the bear woods. Its crazy to dismiss spray on the grounds that pushing its use is driven by anything other than proven results, but that opinion shows up regularly.
I still believe the biggest hurdle for using spray over a gun is mental. If I lived in grizz country I would struggle with that one myself.
Joshua
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There was a great article by Monty Browning about this subject in TBM magazine a few months back. I believe Monty carried both spray and a 44 mag and would use the one that he felt would work the best in the given situation.
I'm going to Alaska in 2015 and plan on doing the same. I know I'm a poor shot with a pistol and I've seen how fast a bear can move. I'm not going to kid myself and think I can hit and stop one coming at me at that speed but a pistol will at least give me peace of mind in the tent.
I think Mr. Dill gave some great advise when he said know the limitations of whatever you use and how to use it.
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A researcher in Minnesota often took his granddaughter with him. He was checking cubs, he could handle them and their mamma would not attack. He found this a consistent behavior. He did give his little granddaughter a pepper squirter, the kind that shot a stream. He told her if that big bear gets to close you can squirt her, she ended up using it. The next time they checked those bears, the mamma saw him and was fine, but when the mamma saw his little blond granddaughter it bolted away. Considering how often black bear and people cross paths and how few attacks there are, I think that there is a greater chance of getting injured by a falling tree branch in an Iowa farm grove. We have had many close encounters with black bears on our dozens of canoe trips. I carried mace for a couple of years, but it was just extra weight. If an old boar bear either Griz or black decides to attack, they will do it from cover and be on you before you can draw a pistol. I guess the choice would be while it is chewing on your leg, do you want to spray it in the face or shoot it. Black bears sometimes do a false charge, it is a bit terrifying, but I would not want to spray or shoot a bear for bluffing, they are just letting you know they want some space. If the chances were greater that I could be attacked by a Griz, like the ones I watched last year, I would pick a rifle any day over a pistol. A pistol does make more noise than spray, but, as in our case, the noise of me telling them to go away was more than enough.
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You should do what ever is legal and you feel comfortable with, but there are dangers out there. Once while sitting in a tree stand with my old hang me until I am dead safety strap around me waste and my bow with a white fletched arrow on the string hanging in front of me, I heard metallic screech on one side and then the other. Then, without warning, the biggest meanest screech owl in the world came and grabbed my arrow by the fletching. He flew off with my arrow a ways, nocking my bow to the ground. I went over backwards, struggled to get back on my board, and then preceded to miss most of the tree steps to surprisingly very hard ground.
Another time from that same stand, I saw a chubby guy with a Bear Whitetail Hunter compound walk by. He stopped on the top and took off his coat, he had an orange and electric blue shiny nylon shirt, and hung his bow on a branch about 60 yards away and then went behind a cedar clump. I thought, omg, he is going to take a dump right there. Second later I heard him in a very girly voice cry an alarm. Then he came charging past suspenders flopping, crying in a high pitched whimpering like he lost his mamma, with a huge badger hot on his heals. That fat boy could really run. A bit later that crazy badger came by me, looked up at me and snarled, "I'm keeping an eye on you to." After the badger left I went up and got his bow and his coat, I found the guy half way up a tree, he was easy to spot, and gave him his stuff.
Badgers and bears might be fast, but nothing is faster than lightning. That stuff terrifies me.
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Originally posted by pavan:
You should do what ever is legal and you feel comfortable with, but there are dangers out there. Once while sitting in a tree stand with my old hang me until I am dead safety strap around me waste and my bow with a white fletched arrow on the string hanging in front of me, I heard metallic screech on one side and then the other. Then, without warning, the biggest meanest screech owl in the world came and grabbed my arrow by the fletching. He flew off with my arrow a ways, nocking my bow to the ground. I went over backwards, struggled to get back on my board, and then preceded to miss most of the tree steps to surprisingly very hard ground.
Another time from that same stand, I saw a chubby guy with a Bear Whitetail Hunter compound walk by. He stopped on the top and took off his coat, he had an orange and electric blue shiny nylon shirt, and hung his bow on a branch about 60 yards away and then went behind a cedar clump. I thought, omg, he is going to take a dump right there. Second later I heard him in a very girly voice cry an alarm. Then he came charging past suspenders flopping, crying in a high pitched whimpering like he lost his mamma, with a huge badger hot on his heals. That fat boy could really run. A bit later that crazy badger came by me, looked up at me and snarled, "I'm keeping an eye on you to." After the badger left I went up and got his bow and his coat, I found the guy half way up a tree, he was easy to spot, and gave him his stuff.
Badgers and bears might be fast, but nothing is faster than lightning. That stuff terrifies me.
Nominated for best post of the day! :laughing:
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Originally posted by Paul_R:
Originally posted by pavan:
You should do what ever is legal and you feel comfortable with, but there are dangers out there. Once while sitting in a tree stand with my old hang me until I am dead safety strap around me waste and my bow with a white fletched arrow on the string hanging in front of me, I heard metallic screech on one side and then the other. Then, without warning, the biggest meanest screech owl in the world came and grabbed my arrow by the fletching. He flew off with my arrow a ways, nocking my bow to the ground. I went over backwards, struggled to get back on my board, and then preceded to miss most of the tree steps to surprisingly very hard ground.
Another time from that same stand, I saw a chubby guy with a Bear Whitetail Hunter compound walk by. He stopped on the top and took off his coat, he had an orange and electric blue shiny nylon shirt, and hung his bow on a branch about 60 yards away and then went behind a cedar clump. I thought, omg, he is going to take a dump right there. Second later I heard him in a very girly voice cry an alarm. Then he came charging past suspenders flopping, crying in a high pitched whimpering like he lost his mamma, with a huge badger hot on his heals. That fat boy could really run. A bit later that crazy badger came by me, looked up at me and snarled, "I'm keeping an eye on you to." After the badger left I went up and got his bow and his coat, I found the guy half way up a tree, he was easy to spot, and gave him his stuff.
Badgers and bears might be fast, but nothing is faster than lightning. That stuff terrifies me.
Nominated for best post of the day! :laughing: [/b]
X2 :laughing:
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A good knife will do the job...if you've got the stones for it.... :goldtooth: http://www.shrewbows.com/bowie_defender.html
(http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/HughGlassBearAttack.jpg)
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Shameless Ron, truly shameless! :saywhat:
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I'm not sure if you already said this, but where are you going?
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We have had two cougars in the valley we hunt, yes in Iowa. When walking out in the dark, after finding giant kitty tracks in the dust on top of mine, I will admit to looking behind me a few times when walking out. I was afraid that it could think that I was a jogger. In California, cougars eat joggers.
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Idaho
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I forgot to mention, always wear a seatbelt on the way to your hunt. You'll have a FAR bigger risk of getting injured in a vehicular accident than getting attacked by a bear. We drive very day without giving it a thought at all yet worry about animals.
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Originally posted by pavan:
We have had two cougars in the valley we hunt, yes in Iowa. When walking out in the dark, after finding giant kitty tracks in the dust on top of mine, I will admit to looking behind me a few times when walking out. I was afraid that it could think that I was a jogger. In California, cougars eat joggers.
:laughing: :laughing:
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For years the the dnr denied they were here. Then one day a farmer west of here shot two in one day that were harassing his calves.
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Black bears are nothing to worry about. I don't carry anything extra when messing with them.
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Originally posted by beendare:
This may tick a few folks off but I think the F and G depts and many others glorify the spray and don't want folks putting bullets in those bears. One year I was in Ak, and the outward bound type youth group had a kid eaten- the bear came in to them cooking, they sprayed it,it ran off for a bit and came back and either killed the kid or seriously wounded him and a couple others I think(it's been awhile)bi think if you aren't a great hg shot, carry the spray, otherwise, the bang alone from a pistol has been enough to turn many bears.
I'm pretty sure this is the incident you're referring to. If it is, it had nothing to do with being in camp and nothing to do with a failed application of bear spray. It did have a LOT to do with surprising a sow with cubs in thick cover:
Alaska bear attack: NOLS kids did a \\'phenomenal job\\' (http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/alaska-bear-attack-nols-kids-did-phenomenal-job)
It used to be my task to hunt into the wind with a dog for overdue humans. In AK, that often included overdue hunters and was almost always done in brown bear country. I chose to carry the spray on SAR missions and use my short-barreled shotgun for camp defense.
One of the very few cases I know of a handgun being used successfully required letting the bear chew on the shooter's leg for a while. By coincidence, the shooter is also the author of the linked article.
As has already been said (in more polite language), the accusation that the spray is being pushed as a political matter is nonsense. The authors of the studies examining the efficacy of the spray and firearms are honorable people with a LONG history of professional involvement in investigating bear attacks and advising people on how to avoid them.
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I mentioned earlier that I carried a .45 Colt. I should caveat it with this. When I was fishing in areas that many people would be, I carried spray. Nothing wrong with spray, I just didn't ant to be the guy just over the hill from a bear that had been sprayed. A good .45Colt with hard cast lead is my idea of a perfect gun. Problem is, in my opinion, the best gun for this is a 4" Ruger. It won't be light, but with hard cast lead, it will shoot all the way through a bear. If you want lightweight, a S&W 329 PD in .44 mag is an option. It's LIGHT, but kicks like a mule with loads for bears.
When I got to AK, I was told over and over that a .44 was the minimum. I wasn't comfortable with the minimum, so I got a .454 Casull. I wish I would have kept it. I carried .45 Colt loads most of the time. Carried .454 when I was. In areas with lots of grizzlys
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I have the S&W 329 Lightweight 44 mag and yes it does kick with the big loads. I had mine ported and a rubber grip to replace the wooden one so now it is tolerable. I don't carry it don't see the point-you will never get a hand gun out in time for it to be of much value. Besides my wife likes to have it when I am gone hunting. :bigsmyl:
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Spending lots of time in Montana backcountry I started out with a Super Red Hawk 44 with HSM bear loads and now to a good ole can of bear spray. Hands down more effective when a crazy situation arises. Even with being careful and aware of your surroundings and what not... moving quietly, and cow calling can bring a bear right to you. They're getting smart up north.
The numbers dont lie when it comes to handgun vs. spray. Spray wins.
For Colorado, my home state. a .40 does me well if I need to scare off a blackie. But anytime I've seen one, he or she takes off really quick. Never had one mess with my tent thus far.
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There was a period where it was common for canoeist up north to carry pistols. They shot at every bear that came near them. Sloppy camping was why the bears came into the camp sites of the BWCA. I was told by one Ely resident that bears would be gut shot so they would die somewhere else. Times have changed somewhat and more people now know the causes of problem bears and they keep cleaner camps. I have seen exceptions, where people through ignorance and fear behave badly. One case, three guys from the south were cleaning two hammer handle northerns and one smallmouth on a campsite that was at the time empty, not cool. They were not campers, motorized day fishermen. They took turns holding a 357 and pointing it at the woods. On pins and needles the one holding the gun flinched at every movement he saw and even let a shot off at one Unidentified movement. I have personally seen how fast a bear charge is. Unless the bear gave a warning, no one that I have ever seen could do much with either a holstered side arm or a holstered bear spray can. Bears that do give advanced warnings rarely ever attack. I am not against handguns at all, but if the logic for having one is fear of bears, I would go with the spray. It is lighter, cheaper and in the very unlikely event of a real problem, it will save your life.
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(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSluMy_MR_PfeAz4rnzdP9ckGwrfkPEk-NwJxICtenVzBoBH8MR)
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WWTD...What Would Tristan Do?
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s631/nineworlds9/86343DEE-844C-4294-A6AA-8B4360FE2AC2.jpg) (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/nineworlds9/media/86343DEE-844C-4294-A6AA-8B4360FE2AC2.jpg.html)
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Any Legends of the Fall fans??
:laughing:
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I carry spray elk hunting, only time I ever unholstered it was for a rutting moose after dark, never seen him but we could hear him roaring in the direction we were stuck going. I don't feel it's a concern enough to pack the extra weight of a side arm. If I did pack one it will be my S&W Highway Patrolman .357. I kind of like the Taurus Judge that you could put a couple of rounds of buckshot followed by something a little more lethal in the remaining cylinders.
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Legends of the Fall knife... :cool:
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/4388/p1020379k.jpg)
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I am not a bear hunter but have read a lot about bears and bear hunting over the last 50 years or so. I DO know a little about handguns. I suspect that most of us would be screwed whether we were packing a pistol or spray. I doubt that the majority of us could pull off the shot in the bedlam of a full out charge. Nonetheless, I would be carrying my 7.5 inch barreled Virginian Dragoon in .44 mag. By the way, I read in a book that chronicled a number of bear attacks that there is no record of a black bear climbing more than 33 feet up a tree to get to somebody. That makes the magic number 34.
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If you must carry a gun for protection from bears, this is an original Howdah, .69cal. It shoots a lead roundball bigger than a hickory nut. The Howdah was named after the basket that hunters sit in on top of an elephant when they hunted Tigers in India. When the Tiger jumped up to get at the hunters the big caliber double barrel pistol took care of the job.
(http://www.shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/12ga%20double1.JPG)
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WWTD? Pretty sure he wound up Griz fodder in that one. Yea, Great Movie!
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Ron, what does THAT BEAST weigh ? If you could incorporate capsaician (sp?) into black powder that would be the beast. . shoot em AND spray em with the cloud.
ChuckC
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I told you yesterday Jeff, all you need is a rolled up newspaper and loud voice to move them on! lol ;-)
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A friend had a summer job working in the kitchen at a national park in Alberta. They would always have two people to take out the garbage. One person to dump the waste into the bear proof dumpster and the other to scare the bears away during the process.
They would beat pots and pans together to frighten the bears.
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Sent you a PM,Dragonheart
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Your .41 will do an outstanding job. The most underrated of all he magnums. Stoked with heavy 240-265gr hard cast lead loads from Buffalo Bore, Grizzly Ammo or, Double Tap will drop most any black bear in its tracks and suffice for a griz also
BTW. The ".44" mag isn't .44 but .423. The .41 is .41, meaning given similar weight projectiles the newer (.41 rem mag is the younger of the Keith magnums) has a better sectional density thus better penetration and energy.
Carry the N-frame and rest easy.
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Very few people here have ever seen a brown/grizzly in the wild, much less taken a shot at one, much less stopped an attack with a handgun. You might take to heart what this guy says, who has done all of that and more:
Canister of bear spray is best bet for Alaska backcountry runners (http://www.adn.com/article/20140708/canister-bear-spray-best-bet-alaska-backcountry-runners)
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"BTW. The ".44" mag isn't .44 but .423"
Actually it's .429
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... Rolled up newspaper.
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Check out we'd Daems and 7xleather he makes a great chest rig for an n frame. I use one for my 44
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Ross I hear ya. Hum, newspaper, .41, bear spray? After reading the article my thoughts of jogging have vanished. LOL!
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Now I know I wont be jogging! Jeez! This dude is quick!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7RsjcRiGM&index=13&list=PLN6RAzsRyFgptt_7bCVC809paocYMl_QG
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I carry spray, and either a .44 mag Redhawk, or a Win Mod 94 Trapper 30-30.
The trapper carries 5-rnds in the magazine, so I carry it without a round in the chamber, slung upside down and hanging to the right. It doesn't get in the way, but I can bring it into action quickly. It is probably better than the .44 in that I can shoot it more accurately. Rossi makes something similar to the Trapper.
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I have been following this thread closely and have thought about it from several angles.
1.hunters are more vulnerable than most people because we like to be quite and stealthy. We don't like yelling "hey bear" as we hunt.
2. We cover more back country ground than most.
We also tend to project towards weapons for protection.
I have found through 25 years working in the forest common sense about bears mostly prevails.
be alert, understand bear habitats, learn to identify and read bear or predator sign, and read bears needs (what does that bear want you to do and what is it going to do to make it happen (protection of food, young, is it predatory, was it surprised, etc. ) learn to read this and you want response you need to do. |This will again prove your brain to be your best weapon.
I carry spray when hunting due to hopefully dealing with dead animals using prey calls.
Because everyone makes mistakes reading wildlife, and like any military personal, enforcement officers, etc., you should always have a back up. (spray or guns).
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I haven't met Ray or Nate face-to-face yet Jeff but I'm staking my safety on the the likelihood that I'm faster than everyone else in camp and I'm not above tripping someone as I sprint by.... ;-)
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Originally posted by Rossco7002:
I haven't met Ray or Nate face-to-face yet Jeff but I'm staking my safety on the the likelihood that I'm faster than everyone else in camp and I'm not above tripping someone as I sprint by.... ;-)
:biglaugh:
Rule number one:
Never hunt dangerous game with anybody you can't outrun!
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I couldn't tell if he was jogging or biking, either way, nice of him to yell and warn the others that are coming up behind him, after he riled up that bear. . . . .
ChuckC
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Lord knows I am going to be the slowest, so I will carry the spray and a handgun!
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Hey Jeff can you find and post the Easton Bowhunting Grizzly charge? They are floating a river and come up on 3 cubs, the sow blows out of the bush from 15 feet just ready to destroy them. In a split second the guy shoots (misses) but turns the bear.
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Originally posted by killinstuff:
Hey Jeff can you find and post the Easton Bowhunting Grizzly charge? They are floating a river and come up on 3 cubs, the sow blows out of the bush from 15 feet just ready to destroy them. In a split second the guy shoots (misses) but turns the bear.
Page 1 of this very thread. :p
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How did I miss that one? I have no clue.
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...
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Here is one where a Montana warden saved himself with his .357 service revolver.
http://www.wideopenspaces.com/bear-attacks-ranger-pics/
Here is another one,not too far from here,where a bowhunter stopped a charging grizzly with 5 shots from a .357.Neither hunter got a scratch.
http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/region/article_9ad27662-d9ad-11e0-ab85-001cc4c03286.html
It wouldn't be my choice for defense but these guys made it work.
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I once had a guy get downright mad at me for liking my sidearm. He puffed up and said,
"Spray will stop anything that walks. Give me a can of spray and $100 from each of us. If you can get the money away from me, it's yours...but you'll lose".
Me: "Okay, I accept. You get in your tent and go to sleep. I'll turn the lights off".
As I recall, we never agreed on a winner. But ultimately, the winner is anyone who ends an encounter with no injuries, other than frayed nerves.
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Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
... But ultimately, the winner is anyone who ends an encounter with no injuries, other than frayed nerves.
Except its been proven your odds of winning are better with spray.
And that fact has nothing to do with liking guns or not, or if they can sometimes be effective or not. I think its become another "us/them" debate at this point.
Joshua
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There was another incident here,in a facility that trains animals for the movies and a trainer was being mauled,another trainer pepper sprayed the bear but it wouldn't stop.They had to get a rifle and shoot the bear to recover the body.
In the Smith/Herrero study linked to earlier in this thread,where they strongly recommend bear spray,they said the spray "stopped undesirable behavior" 90% of the time.They only studied 72 incidents where spray was used in "encounters" with bears.They didn't say "attacks".18% of those bears that were thwarted,had to be sprayed multiple times.The first time didn't stop them.
Conversely,they went all the way back to the late 1800's,studying bear "attacks" and found that attacks were handguns stopped the bears 84% of the time.
Smith said:"The odds are stacked against you with a firearm".He went on to say:"If you are proficient(with the firearm),you have a good chance of defending yourself".
The reasons they cited for firearms failing were:
1.Jamming
2.Engaged safety
3.No round in chamber
4.Inability of shooter to reload
All simple fixes.
I read a Herrero statement where he spoke to media after an attack in Canada and he said bear spray was effective 80-90% of the time.This may have been before the study,not sure.
These bear researchers go on to say that spray leaves the bears alive and healthy and that 61% of the bears died with firearms.And,the Western grizzly states that recommend spray,all belong to the Inter Agency Grizzly Bear Committee whose purpose is the recovery of the grizzly bear.
Again,I'm not knocking spray but if they want to compare spray and firearms it should be apples to apples and no parsing of words to make one sound more effective.The look at firearm defense in the study covered probably 120 years or more.In the last 25 years ammo and firearms have become more efficient,especially big bore handguns,and our understanding of what is required in ammo to stop bears has increased greatly as has the availability of it.
I believe a person needs to use what makes them feel safe whether that is spray,firearm or a combination but I also think it is important to read between the lines,regarding information on this subject as some of the information being fed us is skewed.
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Originally posted by JimB:
The reasons they cited for firearms failing were:
1.Jamming
2.Engaged safety
3.No round in chamber
4.Inability of shooter to reload
All simple fixes.
You left out: can't hit the broadside of a barn.
And any suggestion that there is a bias pushing spray based on a desire to save animals over human life is simply cynical and without proof. They push spray because it works, and works better than guns, in the hands of most people. A huge number of back country users do not make guns a priority in their lives and for them to use one for defense would be stupid. So why would any agency suggest they do?
Joshua
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Statistics say whatever you want them to say. That is also a time proven fact.
Use whatever you feel comfy with, just know you are in a situation that could end poorly, for you, for the critter. Do your best to avoid getting into the situation in the first place.
If you are gonna go into Hell's kitchen, maybe you'd better learn how to cook some chili first.
ChuckC
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I always make it a point to hunt bear with a partner and ALWAYS make sure my partner is somebody I can out run. You don't have to be faster than the bear just one other person!
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Another believer in the spray, even though he is thinking of carrying a gun as well:
"The bear was big -- most Kodiak bears are -- but not that big. With Jackson’s leg in its mouth, the bear was occupied just long enough for the biologist to get the safety cap off the spray.
"'Before she could do anything else,' he said, 'I sprayed her.'
"The shot of Mace-like pepper to the face did the trick. The bear beat it out of there. A wet and battered Jackson scrambled to his feet. He was sore and knew he'd been bit, but that wasn’t all.
…
"He admits the bear 'scared the crap out of me,' and that 'I think I'll probably have a gun with me for a while now,' though he's not sure a gun would have made any difference. Everything happened so fast."
State biologist \\'lucked out\\' that Shuyak Island grizzly mauling wasn\\'t worse (http://www.adn.com/article/20140913/state-biologist-lucked-out-shuyak-island-grizzly-mauling-wasnt-worse)
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Bear Spray for the following reasons:
1. Area-fire weapon versus a point-fire weapon...I do not shoot a handgun enough to be pin point accurate (especially under duress).
2. Non-lethal. Do not want to sentence helpless bear cubs (or moose fawns) to a horrible death of starvation...if I can use spray to break off an attack (or bluff charge) with spray, the young ones still have their mother.
3. As mentioned above, Bear Spray will probably be just as effective on a Cow Moose with calves, a mountain lion, a wolf etc...those last two would prove to be mighty tough targets to hit with a single projectile when they are moving quickly. Back to the Area-fire weapon part of my theory.
4. MUCH lighter to carry on a 10 day sheep hunt!
5. I shoot a glove which is very difficult to get into the trigger guard of my Redhawk without accidently firing a round...certainly don't need to shoot myself while being charged!
6. The bear spray can be employed MUCH quicker since I can use it while still in it's holster...not so much with a holstered handgun. I regularly hunt grizzly bears and when I get within about 100 yards, I remove the safety from my spray trigger. I am trying to kill this bear with my bow, so my fingers are on my string when I am in exceptionally close quarters. If I need to use the spray all I have to do is hit the trigger with the palm of my hand. MUCH quicker than pulling and aiming (accurately) with a hand gun that I have a hard time getting my trigger finger into the trigger guard.
Now, having said all of that, I will concede that there may be some bears out there with bad intentions and a hot piece of lead may be the only thing that will deter them, but I am confident that spray is still a better choice unless you want to carry both.
I will also give you that we all want to hunt into the wind...don't really want to be gasping for breath while getting pounced on by a bear. I guess I would just wait an instant longer before I sprayed the bear.
Safe Hunting!
All that bei