Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: D.J. Carr on August 29, 2014, 09:21:00 AM
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I started shooting broadheads a week ago, and no matter what I did I couldn't make them shoot consistently. After a couple frustrating days, I decided it was the broadheads... so I ordered another brand, known to shoot well. New heads came and result was the same. I went as far as turning blades to all angles, and adding weight washers to the front... After I had pulled out the limited hair I had left I decided to try different arrows. (I have been shooting 5575's and 400 spines, they shoot identical, bare shafted the same, and total arrow weight is within 30 grains. My mindset was 5575's are my "good" arrows, and 400's were laying around.. so if I lose them at a shoot, or stump shooting...)
So I screwed the broadhead on the 400 spine arrow and it flew awesome, it must have been a fluke, so I shot again, and again, and again. So out of curiousity I tried the original broadhead I purchased and yup they shot awesome to.
So now my "I don't care if I lose them" arrows are my hunting arrows.
Anyone experience anything like this? or have any logical explanation.
When I say I couldn't make them shoot, I mean erratic, at 15 yards, 1 would be 6 inches left and 8 inches low, and the next 1 would sail a foot over the target, and the flight was terrible, you could see the arrow doing crazy things in the air at times.
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Sometimes with Broadheads, It's a mental thing.
If your arrows shot well with the same weight field tips, No reason they should not shoot well with Broadheads....
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There is no logical explanation for what you are describing...I long ago determined that logic and traditional bowhunting do not necessarily go hand in hand...shoot what works for you
DDave
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Is the nock fit identical for both?
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yes same exact knock
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Of my limited experience, if my arrows are bareshaft tuned out to 30 yards, I have experienced no surprises when switching to even wide BH's of nearly the same weight.
Erratic flight has been observed when my release has been compromised, possibly by overly concerning myself with BH flight vs nice shot execution,
As a bareshaft will magnify shooting flaws and arrow compatibility,.a BH will magnify the aforementioned even more.
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My only thought is if the 5575's had flat spots or didn't spin true? They were blems, I know suposedly the blemishes are only "cosmetic"....
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Of my limited experience, if my arrows are bareshaft tuned out to 30 yards, I have experienced no surprises when switching to even wide BH's of nearly the same weight.
Erratic flight has been observed when my release has been compromised, possibly by overly concerning myself with BH flight vs nice shot execution,
As a bareshaft will magnify shooting flaws and arrow compatibility,.a BH will magnify the aforementioned even more.
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Ya that doesn't make much sense. They should all be the same spine. Are they all cut to the same length?
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yes same length
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I understand the "me" factor, and my flaws obviously effect the flight of the arrow, and the accuracy. But... why would my flaws effect 1 arrow more then another?
I only shot 2 of the 5575s and they were ones I have been target shooting all summer, I will try "unfired" ones, maybe there are flaws in the shafts due to use target shooting?
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Dj, I would love to help you out with some great advice, but i have the same struggle from Time to time.
I think DDave said it perfect,
"There is no logical explanation for what you are describing...I long ago determined that logic and traditional bowhunting do not necessarily go hand in hand...shoot what works for you"
I am still over a month away from season and have not checked my broadhead flight yet. Maybe you should start a "support group", i'll be joining it shortly! :banghead: :dunno:
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What does the fletching look like in each case? With BHs, I've found fletch to be extremely important. If the BH can overpower the fletch, you are now steering from the front.
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Logically it would appear that there is an error in the parameters somewhere. If these two shafts bare shaft perfectly but handle broadheads differently than then I would start over with the bare shaft testing. I think you may find that they aren't bareshafting the same at all.
If that's not it then it's just magic :dunno:
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Your broadheads are longer, making your arrow length longer, might have a minor effect on spine. With carbons, length trumps weight with tuning. Maybe?
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I will shave off the fletching on an arrow of each and test...
I still don't see how there can be that dramatic of a difference. And the erratic flight is whats curious, if I was consistentle hitting in an area it would make more sense.
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I don't know carbons from corn, but perhaps the inserts aren't installed true causing the broadhead alignment to be off. Either that or the blades are overriding the fletch.
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Originally posted by Triphammer:
What does the fletching look like in each case? With BHs, I've found fletch to be extremely important. If the BH can overpower the fletch, you are now steering from the front.
Yup.... you start putting wings on the front of your missiles...they can definitely fly different.
I'll bet the 400's had a different fletching.
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You never stated if the .400's are the same outside diameter as the 55/75. If they are slightly smaller, then you are effecting both center shot, and nock height. I would suspect some contact somewhere with the 55/75 is causing your erratic flight. Also, the 55/75 might spine a little stiffer/weaker than the .400.
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I don't know much except about the old aluminums that I shoot (2018, 2217, 2419), so excuse my ignorance...
Are the 400's that you are referring to aluminums? Could it have something to do with the shaft's recovery rate as it flexes in flight? I've read here on TG that carbon and aluminum have different recovery rates.
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i would put them both on a spine tester and you will probably see that they are not the same
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The height of your fletching must exceed the width of your broadhead. This is overlooked a lot when people switch to 2018 aluminums is too short on an Axis with a 1 1/8 broadhead.
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And some folks think wood is too complicated! :laughing: :laughing:
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I have recently seen a situation with Deltas, on a three fletched arrow that were extremely finicky when mounted vertical and forgiving when mounted flat. It seemed like that head was catching air as it was bending out of the bow. Four fletch five inch feathers can cover a lot of tuning errors. I had a carbon once that shot field points fine and could not get stable flight with a Magnus 160. These arrows came with instructions to put the stiff side to the bow. I had one turned 90 degrees. I tried simply putting on a new nock and the problem was gone, my cock feather was merely pointing straight up.
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Originally posted by Bjorn:
And some folks think wood is too complicated! :laughing: :laughing:
it is and I use mostly woods but we all know climate effects them sometimes,,,,, but with carbons if they are Bare shaft tuned and better so at your comfortable yardage while wearing your hunting jacket then any broadhead that is mounted properly so it spins true will work perfect even with 3" fletch it doesn't matter...
I didn't read all these posts but if he cuts the fletch off one arrow and shoots it and the nock veers off in any directing then thats where the broadhead is going,,, I shoot 4" fletch with 2" wide tree sharks out to 30yds with my recurves and they are right with my filedpoints unless there is a strong enough cross wind then who knows.
if the arrow nocks are too tight or he has a sloppy release same deal..
bare shaft tune, then spin test to be sure the inserts are mounted true, then check fletching on riser, while at brace put an arrow on string and hold bow sideways now slide arrow off string (making believe its in flight) and slide the fletching across the riser and shelf and feel for anything catching or sticking,, some shelf leather is too sticky and the arrow friction heats it and makes it worse during the shot.
just my opinions but good luck
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Not sure if you mentioned this, but are the inserts straight on the arrows in question? A field tip with a slight wobble may not be as noticeable as a broad head not aligned. maybe? :dunno:
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Maybe you are peeking at release ? or not getting your head in same position with broadheads because of the different sight picture w/broadhead in the way??
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Originally posted by D.J. Carr:
(I have been shooting 5575's and 400 spines, they shoot identical, bare shafted the same, and total arrow weight is within 30 grains.
Is the OD on the 400's 9/32 and do they have the HIT inserts?
if so, there's your problem.
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Your "55/75" and your ".400 spine" arrows are probably way different from each other. Just cause it says .400 on the label, does not mean it is a .400 spine! I shoot Gold Tip XT shafts. It says on the GT website, and on the shaft, that they are supposed to be .400 spine. I have run 30 dozen or more through a spine tester, and have yet to have a single .400 spine shaft! Th GT's are stiffer than they say, and I'd be willing to bet your two shafts are way more different than you would have thought.
Bisch
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Bisch has solved the mystery
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Funny. This happened to me this year with the very same arrows :D
When I tuned them, I was very aware of having the perfect release, shooting through with the bow arm, etc..
Well... Over the summer, I got into shooting well but not shooting perfectly as to release. Once in awhile I would catch a tail kick but it was occasionally. I shot very well all those months and was very confident but when I put on the broadheads, I found that what was once was no more.
Since I wont likely be thinking of perfection of form
when a deer steps into the shooting lane, I decided to stick with what was working well and changing the arrow, to perfect my slop. The 55/75 shafts were perfected with a head weight change and the 400 aluminum took the corner of the shop in favor of 2018 shafts.
Not the first time I have seen this. Field points will let you get away with a lot.
Everything is now spot on. I am sure that if I went back to doing what is ideal, I would be right back to what I had been shooting all summer (what tuned well at first) but that is not practical, since I am imperfect ;)
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I had the similar thought as elknutz. "Good" arrows may be close to limit on spine. Broadhead center of gravity may be farther forward than field points. Causes the good arrows to flex too much. "Don't care if I lose them" arrows are slightly stiffer and still flex within acceptable limits with broadheads. You mentioned 30 grains difference. My guess is that 30 grains and broadhead center of gravity could make a real difference if the spine is "close" to being an issue. Just a thought. Lots of posts here, but, also, have the fletching details been discussed ?
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bare shaft till you get a slightly weaker spine say nock to the left (Right handed shooter) about 2"-3" at 10yds and you will get good flight with broadheads.
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DJ
Have you been able to determine your problem or what was different between the two shafts?