Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Ron Vought on September 11, 2014, 09:36:00 AM
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Been thinking about this a lot lately and also see this on Outdoor television. Why is it that bowhunting has become a long range shooting pursuit for the tech crowd? I see people on television shooting out to 60 yards at animals and manufactures pushing speeds to 400 FPS which in my mind is to support the longer shot opportunity. I don't know about you but I take a lot of thought in setting up my stand placement to get as close as possible to the animals in which I pursue.
Whatever happened to getting close to the game we hunt versus having to extend the the shot opportunity? Also I wonder how all of this impacts our seasons in the future with the extended capability of these weapons....Are we all still hunters united if there becomes a negative impact to our seasons? It's getting close to hunting season and I see a lot of people here that think along the same lines of setting up close on game animals. If you really think about it not much has changed over the years when it comes to bow hunting with traditional equipment. What are your thoughts?
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I think the answer lies with merchandising.
The same thing happens with cars and clothing and everything else in our lives. If I am to sell you a new bow (or car, or clothing), and you already have a perfectly good bow, I must make one different enough to get you to "need it". One way is to come up with other uses or slightly different routines so that you , need it. Traditional archery has not changed all that much over the years, so it is a niche market, compared to the bigger archery scheme.
Crossbows are a very in-your-face example of this merchandising.
We are convinced that we need a faster, shinier, newer, lighter, stronger, easier etc anything so that we can jump right in there and be notable, and the market absolutely needs and feeds on that. We, as a species, are extremely gullible and find extreme need in fitting in.
ChuckC
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ChuckC I love your posts. You really brought some down to earth and thoughtful insights into the recent Colorado thread, really I think you kept it from degenerating into a lot of chest thumping. You've got something good going on between those ears.
You've nailed it on this one as well. I have a coworker who shoots wheels with fervor, yet is a closet trad shooter (when I remind him to keep it real), and he is not immune to the hype and fps and gizmo wars. The wheelbow he has could easily last him his whole life but I see the glazed over eyes and fervor in his voice when he gets the latest catalog in hand and points out the latest 'next best thing'. I chide him and tell him its much more satisfying to spend ones money on beautiful functional art tradbows! :biglaugh:
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aw shucks, :rolleyes:
Chuck, where, or in what reference is your Voluspa phrase from. interesting.
ChuckC
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I'll post a link here to help explain but since the quote is not directly bowhunting related PM if you wish to discuss any further.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Völuspá
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thank you. I really enjoy learning more about other cultures and thought. Kinda opens your eyes a bit more. Lots of folks see the same thing at the same time, yet, there are many versions of what just happened. A lot of what you perceive depends on your background.
CHuckC
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If you think not much has changed in traditional bowhunting you are mistaken. The heroes we worship as traditional archers like Art Young, Jack Howard, Fred Bear, etc all capitalized on shots further than 60 yrds and did so regularly. I don't know when the get in close thing started but it is recently in the grand scheme. People are going to do what their equipment and skills allow.
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Recently I seen "highlights" from a show, and on 2 back to back episodes the guy shot a deer at 87 yards and 50 somthing yards. He was bragging how they came in down wind... and how his camo concealed him....he was in a treestand.
1. Nice shot.
2. If I can't get deer any closer then 87 yards, I did something wrong.
3. If I can't get the deer within 25 yards (or a reasonable effective range), the deer win that day, I lost and I need to figure out how to do it better next time...
I don't doubt with today's equipment wheelbows are effective at 87 yards, I also believe this TV personality is capable of the shot, its what he does for a living, he probably shoots 100 arrows 365 days a year. My biggest issue is the average Joe, this show is encouraging hunters of every ability to take these long shots that most are not capable of making on a regular basis. End result is an injured animal running around that may die a terrible death or will be harvested by another hunter and found to have various infections... Not to mention more amunnition for the tree huggers.
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I guess something that has not been discussed here so far is the impact to our seasons across the US. How do you think the equipment and its increased capability is going to impact the archery seasons and deer management plans?
Ron
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We are convinced that we need a faster, shinier, newer, lighter, stronger, easier etc anything so that we can jump right in there and be notable, and the market absolutely needs and feeds on that. We, as a species, are extremely gullible and find extreme need in fitting in.
Yep. All to often a product doesn't even have to be better, just different, pretty, eye-catching, oddball, etc.
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Originally posted by Ron Vought:
I guess something that has not been discussed here so far is the impact to our seasons across the US. How do you think the equipment and its increased capability is going to impact the archery seasons and deer management plans?
Ron
Good point Ron.
My opinion is that it isn't a concern at the moment, as I think the majority of actually hunters out there, are keeping it under 50, probably under 30 even.
I do think, though, as you alluded to, that if 70+ yard shots become come place, and the powers that be take notice, that the archery season as we know it, may be in jeopardy.
What would make us any different than gun hunters? They on average, don't take a ton of shots beyond 100yards that I know of. Especially in the heavier wooded areas.
I see your concern, and it may be valid in the future, if the trend continues. But, I don't think we are there yet, as it's still something to brag about and not common place.
Just my thoughts anyways.
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Originally posted by bigbadjon:
If you think not much has changed in traditional bowhunting you are mistaken. The heroes we worship as traditional archers like Art Young, Jack Howard, Fred Bear, etc all capitalized on shots further than 60 yrds and did so regularly. I don't know when the get in close thing started but it is recently in the grand scheme. People are going to do what their equipment and skills allow.
X2 I just finished reading a book called Toxicated by Fred Anderson...Fantastic read! the distances they regularly killed game at very different from todays "trad archer".
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The reason I brought up the impact is the rumbling I keep hearing in PA about the number of deer being taken by crossgun hunters. Deer harvest increases above the management levels and the season could be in jeopardy. This is an example of very effective weapon that could have an impact to our seasons. Same goes with the compound pushing 400 FPS and its effectiveness at longer distances...not just distance discussion here but true effectiveness of the weapon.
Ron
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I never liked fishing in a bucket
What fun is equiptment that gives the animal little chance?
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The new technology will make up for the decrease in hunters....?
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People take any advantage they can. I know that my people would have welcomed the stuff with open arms. It's a natural move, and we're running counter to general human psychology here. I'm with you guys, but the reason it's taking over is because we always seek to make tasks easier as a species.
It's getting more likely that they will legislate that we must use the gadgets than they would remove crossbows from archery season. I hate to be negative, but I know here I'm considered kinda crazy for not using at least a compound, especially given the wheelchair and atrophied left arm. Since the lobbyists already have their hooks in our seasons, I seriously wonder if we aren't the ones on borrowed time.
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I dont think the long range is going to effect anything other then the game. More game being wounded anyway. Animals move and what you can do with a bow doesn't change that.
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Want to get really upset? Hang out for a while on a standard hunting forum. One that isn't trad archery related. It's sad stuff.
My buddy Joe and I regularly joke around about all the guys on there wearing face paint to hunt deer. Perfect face paint I might add. I guess nobody told them that people like us regularly hunt in blue jeans and kill deer within 15 yards.
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Have had people tell me if would shoot one of those contraptions instead of my traditional bows I could kill critters at 60 or 70 yards,I just tell them that I am a better hunter than that and kill them a lot closer.
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Taking a shot at anything over about 30 yards (IMO)is risky, no matter what you use to propel the arrow. Animals move, and all arrows are relatively slow compared to bullets. I've taken some long shots, and made some long kills, but I'm not that hungry for a kill now. I'm more concerned about a clean, quick kill than I am marking a scoreboard.
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Wow! Another thought provoking spread. Biggest difference in my lifetime (and locality) is the shift of focus to hunting deer, owing to their population recovery. The majority of the hunters I grew up around hunted squirrels and rabbits for food, and the whitetail season was short (6 days for firearms) with a limit of one.
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And I would bet a crisp $100.00 bill that the guys taking those long shots have an expandable blade broadhead screwed on the end of there arrow or bolt. Makes a huge difference in the margin of error.
Good Shooting,
Craig
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The latest and greatest broadheads crack me up with there descriptions as well. They advertise as though they have complete changed the way to kill an animal. If only they knew people still make there own arrows and broadheads and have complete pass throughs on deer.
On another note:
Cabela's opened up down the road from my house. The number of people marching into the woods with crossbows and range finding scopes in my area may have just doubled. Could not believe the number of people buying them.
Georgia DNR is going to cut down the number of deer harvested for the 2015-2016 season, I say they go back to making crossbows legal only for people who are handicapped. It might help some.
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Different people like different stuff.
I use a stick bow (and prefer to shoot one I made) just because that's what I like. I don't do it to give the deer a better chance.
I want my shooting and hunting skills to be good enough that the deer has no chance at all (I'm not exactly there yet). I'd sure like to fill my tag before it gets cold...Deer hunting in the cold is an exercise in pain tolerance for me and there's nothing fun about pain.
Some equipment and methods require a greater investment in time and effort to develop the skill. Often, those that have the money just don't have or aren't willing to invest the time and effort.
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"Wow! Another thought provoking spread. Biggest difference in my lifetime (and locality) is the shift of focus to hunting deer, owing to their population recovery. The majority of the hunters I grew up around hunted squirrels and rabbits for food, and the whitetail season was short (6 days for firearms) with a limit of one."
Me too but, for the hunters I knew, the weapon of choice was a shotgun. I didn't even know any bow hunters back in those days.
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Good stuff guys. Really proud of this site. There is no where else that we can we have these conversations without someone posting a personal attack. I really enjoy reading the different thoughts and comments. We have true professionalism here....
My concern is more about how these weapons and technology could negatively impact the archery seasons across the US. The long shots and mechanical heads are really just part of it. Maybe this is not an issue because as one member noted we are losing hunters so maybe no impact to the deer management plans. The underlying issue is when does it stop? As I said before does it stop after the crossgun shoots a bolt with a 209 primer? When do we as bowhunters start talking to our Game Divisions about equipment restrictions. What is the identity of archery and bowhunting? Something more to chew on...
Ron
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One only has to look at muzzle loader hunting in the US to see the slippery slope that sport took in 30 years. If you don't have an inline with scope and saboted bullets that will reach out to 200 yards you aren't in the game anymore.
Same thing is happening to archery hunting.
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No matter what, at least my bow bow is prettier to look at than a hunk of metal.
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Interesting thread and thanks to the OP for bringing it up! I have 3 sons that have been brought up hunting and fishing. All three were taught at a very early age not to shoot at anything (except targets) that they were not going to eat later. They are all over the age of 17 now. Several years ago I gave them each a custom recurve. 2 out of three also have compounds that they hunt with. My oldest called me yesterday to talk about crossbows. He says that with his work schedule, he doesn't have time to practice enough for trad archery or even in shooting a compound. Says he went to one of the big sporting goods retailers and shot a crossbow and he was impressed with the scope in that he could shoot multiple yardages with it and that the guy told him that he didn't really need any practice to shoot it. (This particular son has never shot archery yet even though I gave him a bow years ago.) My son assumed it was like shooting a scoped gun. Unfortunately my son believed this line of crap. I explained to him that one needs to practice no matter what weapon he chooses to hunt with, gun, bow or whatever. I explained to him that a crossbow gets sighted-in just like any other weapon with some sort of sight on it. I asked him how heavy the crossbow was and how did he expect to stalk quietly and / or carry that big thing up and down a tree stand.
I do not and will not tell my boys what weapon to use for hunting. I want them to enjoy the outdoors and if they choose to carry a gun, a bow or even a crossbow, they are at least contributing to and enjoying the outdoors and each others company.
WI just changed the archery rules to include crossbows and personally I doubt it will have a major impact on the deer kill. It has already increased the number of hunters buying licenses for deer. I do believe that with the baloney being spread by some of the shows and retailers of the crossbows that there are going to be more crippled deer as inexperienced hunters will try and take shots at deer that an experienced hunter just wouldn't do. They too will ultimately get educated the same as we all did or they will get out of it all together. We all know from experience that there are no real short-cuts to effective hunting. The harvesting of game can be made easier (via baiting, game-farms, etc.) but true hunting can not. Personally I enjoy hunting, not the harvesting of game.
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The "outdoor" shows are mostly one long commercial hidden within a show. Selling products is the goal just like in Fred Bears days of the recurve bow. Fred sold a pile of bows by showing us the possibilities and his methods. The thing that I find disturbing is the actual arrow lethality these shows promote. These are all super light arrows with self expanding broadheads that have been proven to be the least desireable once flesh or especially bone is encountered after the hit. The assumption is that these are more lethal because they are faster arrows. The expanding broadheads are a must because trad broadheads wont fly right at those arrow speeds.
If Dr.Ashby is right (and I suspect he is) then the very arrows and broadheads these speed rigs demand are woefully lacking in after the hit performance. The violence of the initial hit and deployment of the expanding blade broadhead renders them nearly useless for continued penetration.
IMO the long shot compound trend is wrong-headed and will result in more wounding by the average bowhunter. Arrow performance after the hit has not kept up with bow speeds.
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This is a technology based world, that the majority people flock to. We have more accidents I would bet from texting while driving than drunk driving. So technology has crept into everything these days, its unavoidable because this is what is keeping companies in business. As far as affecting trad archery, as long as we retain our ethics and values, we'll do just fine.
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It seems that a lot of people don't want to "practice".
I grew up gun hunting mostly birds and small game. I knew MANY gun hunters that couldn't shoot worth a darn. Most of those rarely fired a shot unless it was at game.
When I started deer hunting with a rifle, many of those I knew and/or hunted with, took their rifle to the range just before the season and just shot enough that they felt it was "sighted in.
Me?, I like to shoot. It's a good thin too because I shoot a lot better with practice. LOL
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Where I hunt-California, oregon and Utah, we get lotsa guys with compounds. The guys I have hunted with and talk to seem to limit their shots to 40 yds-probably the equivalent of me shooting at 15 yds with my trad bow. Crossbows are not an issue where I hunt-only ever encountered 1 hunter with a crossbow-he had downed a bull elk at 55-60 yds.
A good hunter is a good hunter regardless of weapon choice. Unfortunately there are some that do not fit that category. What I am personally more interested in is are you recovering the game you shot? I do find that trad guys and gals spend considerably more time tracking their animals and recovering them successfully than our hi-tech brethren.
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My buddy who owns the cabin I hunt from in MO shoots a crossbow, because he can't shoot a real bow due to shoulder injuries. Last year I helped him track three deer he hit, and he also hit one other. We were unable to recover any of them. He is a good hunter, and has killed many deer with a bow before his shoulders got too bad, but he bought into the extended range idea. The deer paid the price. Fortunately he missed the long shot he took at a trophy buck. Hopefully he learned his lesson. At least he uses real broadheads and keeps them sharp.
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If it weren't for the equipment manufacturers that lobby the state game departments there might not even be an archery only season. There certainly aren't enough traditional hunters to get the job done. There are only so many days in a hunting season and everyone if fighting for more days. Or that is how it is in Mississippi.
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For most wildlife agencies the number of "recreation days" provided for and used by bowhunters is important. This is especially true east of Colorado/WY,MT,NM, etc.
Bowhunting wasn't legalized or expanded to "manage" a big game herd. These seasons were created because of demand for recreational opportunity.
Some might think that an agency could increase its deer harvest (again in the east) by reducing bow season in favor of longer firearms seasons. In fact, in states like SC, AL, GA, and others the agencies have found diminishing returns with making firearms season too long. If a firearms season is too long the "urgency" to get out and hunt is less and some just "forget" or neglect to go.
Interestingly, the bowhunter has become more effective since the 1960's and earlier. In the 60's success rates were less than 5% in most states. These days (more deer biggest reason)success rates are 2-5 times higher.
The bowhunter (again in the east) is one of the most avid Doe-takers and can also hunt in urban/suburban areas. So, the bowhunter is more a manager today than 50+ years ago when our seasons were born.
Another thing we all need to remember, especially wildlife agencies, most bowhunters participate in firearms seasons as well. In fact, the number of bowhunt-only archers is less than 10%. Therefore we are often the most avid supporters and users of wildlife management programs. I had to remind my Commission of this every time a "bowhunter" made a jerk-like statement at a public meeting.
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I,m happy with my 15 yards and under...............
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Long is a relative term, I set up two tree stands today that were close to 30 yards from the trail the deer are using, I regularly practice out to 50 yards and have no problem shooting at an animal to 35 yards.
I have been shooting the same recurve I bought in 1991 and know what my arrow setup can do. I have probably shot over 100,000 arrows through this bow. If more people in the traditional community took every opportunity to learn their bow I think more people could extend their range. Traditional hunting does not have to be a close range hunting
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But I LIKE close range hunting. I haven't killed a deer over ten yards away in years. About half from the ground in a ghillie suit.
ChuckC
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I agree the guys on tv are shooting longer ranges and yes you can say they need to be better hunters and get closer etc...but if you didnt know... the late Fred bear, Howard hill etc shot as long as them or longer and I wouldn't be the one telling them they arent very good hunters....
Not picking sides just thinking out loud.