Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: medic77 on October 30, 2014, 10:02:00 PM
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How accurate is everybody when they started hunting big game animals.
I undertook this great love, selling all other gear, and jumped in with both feet. I was fascinated from the first time I saw a guy flinging some wood arrows. My ride has been up and down to say the least riding the highest of highs and the lowest of lows.
The latest of the lowest of lows was just yesterday when I released an arrow on a beautiful buck at 15yds, perfect broadside, calm and hit the spot that I was looking at but yet that's where the good time ended. I knew in my heart it was a quick and clean kill. After 200 yds of great blood trail and 6hrs of searching later, no go and no deer. This is the second buck in two seasons that I felt my shot was perfect and no deer. I have shot does with no problems and most fall within sight.
I guess my question is... I have never shot with another traditional archer, EVER. I am starting to question what is accurate for me.
When I first started out I was a three under guy and had some success but felt I wasn't improving to what I thought I should be. I am now several years more experienced and shooting split seems to be very accurate at targets but deer hunting is giving me the shakes. Does three under seem to help anybody in hunting situations that they have found? Is it really just buck fever? Is there a training exercise that helps me pick a spot better.
I'm really not trying to complain or be a oh-woe-is - me guy. I'm just searching for a little guidance. I switched to a tab this year to really set my anchor better. Thanks for all the help in advance as this site is the reason I have come this far.
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I don't have a ton of experience, but there are two things that have helped me.
1) I practice out of a deer stand regularly. I also practice kneeling and sitting on a short stool as these are all the ways I am most likely to encounter shots.
2) I'm sure you've heard "pick a spot" just like I had, but it took a couple of shots at animals for me to actually be conscious of picking a spot. Once I was fully aware of picking an actual spot on living creatures, my accuracy has gone up.
I've still made mistakes though.
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Hey brother, I look at it this way. You have to start hunting sometime. Sorry to hear about the loss of the deer thought, I believe that feeling can get anyone down. I had a few of those with my compound when I first started.
I can put arrows on 3D kill zone at 15 yards consistently but at 20 I start to get flyers so I have told myself that my limit is 15 yards. I have yet to loose an arrow with my new trad equipment but if my opportunity does not open up for deer this year I will certainly be small game hunting, it can only help your accuracy.
I was shooting today maybe 100 so arrows and just started getting frustrated with myself watching my groups just turn into flyers. Fatigue and focus was just killing me so it was time to turn in. I know this much I have a compound sitting in the case and it has not been shot for 2 years now. I really love shooting trad. You will get another opportunity and eventually get that buck. I would just be happy to see a deer this year, lol.
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This is the same situation which keeps me from completely switching over from wheels.
I feel you pain.
Good luck!
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Medic where exactly did you hit the deer? What kind of penetration did you get?
If you hit where you were looking at it sounds like accuracy is not your problem.
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Man, that is heartbreaking. I wish you could get a dog on the trail of that buck. Your arrow hit where you were looking and you had good blood for 200 yards... that deer is dead!
Sounds like your a good shot to me... don't let the apparent bad luck get you down!
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Man, I just reread my post and I sound pathetic. Pretty sure I need to put on my big boy pants.
I have been super lucky to have seen the animals and hunts I've gotten to go on in my short 9yr hunting career. I'm only 35 so I need to get this straightened out. The thing that hurt the most was a couple compound friends giving me hell (all in good fun) about me making the last couple shots if I had a compound. Arrow straight to the heart (unless I'm shooting of coarse)
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Good advice above. I have been shooting 38 yrs. and I remember missing the first few deer due to shooting at the whole deer. One was a monster that my hunting partner shot with a compound. After that first year, we built a shooting platform and would practice for hours several times a week. We would throw golf balls on the ground a different yardages. It will get to where you just do not remember the shot at first. I would just remember the arrow going through the deer. We did not have any teaching resources, no internet, etc. We learned by ourselves and we learned some bad habits along the way. It would be a good to get you a shooting partner or film yourself. It would be nice to find the deer to see exactly what happened with your shot sequence
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You dont think someone else found your deer do ya?
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The only thing I can think of on the arrow placement is I hit below the lungs/liver. I stayed of the shoulder 3-4 inches (which has been a nemesis) and aimed lower third because I have had issues with deer jumping the string. The arrow was a pass thru but not complete. I saw the broadhead out the other side as he turned. Bright red blood that I feel is muscle.
All of these things are live and learn type moments and each situation has taught me great lessons.
The only other puzzling thing to me is I have only had one complete pass thru on the very first deer I have ever shot. Every other animal, hogs, javelina and deer has held my arrow. Some just the shot for sure but others like yesterday....?
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This happens with firearms also, don't let it get you down, you did the best you could to find it, that's all you can be expected to do.
Good luck, we know you can do it.
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Your exact situation is what made me go back to the compound for hunting, after 25 years of strictly recurve hunting... I'm also feeling your pain.
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Medic,
For me this is not an achievement based sport. I think we are all accurate enough to hunt, but we have to be mature and disciplined to honestly limit our range accordingly and pass on shots that we are not confident about.
Time spent on shootable animals helps train us to remain calm. On the other hand, when it become too routine, the fun diminishes.
I believe its more about time in the woods than time on the range. That's exactly why I haven't killed anything lately. Get out there and be patient. Everything will come together in time. Good luck - John
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If you hit were you wanted then something else is going on.
My sweet spot is 18 steps, right at 15 yards. I have been videoing a few hunts this year, it is amazing when I look back at the video and see what really happened is not quite what I thought happened. The deer are not as broadsided as I thought and they also tend to move before the arrow gets there.
Benjy
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Medic77,
I can tell you that everyone makes bad shots, everyone screws up perfect scenarios, and everyone has the same frustration as you.
MY advice would be to shoot at a blank target. No dots and try to hit where your looking. When shooting at a target, it is a lot easier to "pick a spot" but when there isn't a spot it can be a little tricky.
I hope this helps, another great FUN way to practice is to get out and "stump shoot". Just pick a patch of grass and shoot it.
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Medic it doesn't sound pathetic, just an honest search for advice.
Bottom third is a good location. I'm not sure what you mean by "I stayed of the shoulder 3-4 inches... ". Did you mean 3 or 4 inches behind the shoulder?
I've found an excellent location to shoot for is the middle of the crease at the shoulder. It will usually get you both lungs from the ground or the tree stand.
What broadhead were you shooting? Do your arrows fly straight is is there some instability (fishtailing, porpoising) in their flight?
How heavy is your bow? Your arrows? There are a lot of factors to consider.
Again if you hit what you were looking at, accuracy ain't an issue.
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Sounds like this shot was a brisket shot, i.e., too low. If that's where you were truly aiming, need to raise it up a bit.
Shooting a stickbow isn't as precise as shooting a compound. No letoff, sights or trigger to make the job easier. Simply need to get close (closer) with a stick bow, and shoot within your limits. Not having all those crutches to rely on also increases tension/doubt in the moment of truth. We all get buck fever to some extent. The key is to learn to still function while under its influence. Hunting small game and making some kills is a good way to gain the confidence to kill big game.
Three under or split really doesn't make a difference. Just have to master whichever style you use.
Re pass throughs. You do get a better blood trail if the arrow passes through, but it doesn't have to pass through the deer to kill it. I shoot most of my deer at a slight quartering away angle, and the arrow often lodges in the off side leg.
Keep in mind, too, that a lot of folks embellish their shooting results. I sure read about a lot more pass throughs than I see from others.
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Jock, my setup is a 60@26 anything I have with a 29.5 Easton FMJ 340 that has 100gr brass insert and 200gr VPA's. They bare shaft really solid but on the stiff side. I'll take it as far as that goes.
Orion, I agree as that is the only thing it could be. I did pick a spot a bit lower than normal and this deer didn't drop as expected. My mistake I guess.
I do stay off the shoulder or back a couple inches just to be on the safe side. That may have to change as well.
I'm sure if I had video of the event I would be seeing a different story.
Thanks again to everyone for listening as just discussing it helps.
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I'm sorry you didn't find your buck, that really sucks, but you are not the first, trust me. If I had to guess, I'd say you hit the high "dead spot," right over the lungs but under the spine. Good blood, think you'll find him around the next bush, then the blood gets less and less, and then no more. It looks like a good lung hit to the eye, but if you aim center and they crouch at all, you'll hit them too high. An old-timer told me when I first started bowhunting to aim low, lower than you can really believe you should, because deer almost always hear the bow, and crouch, at least a little. It happens too fast for you to even be aware of it most of the time, but I've dropped a bunch of them with spine shots aiming center. The more severe the angle (high tree stand), the worse this gets. Target accuracy is good, no doubt, but it means very little when shooting at game, other than to prove you can actually shoot. Nerves are the problem on animals. I was a great target shot, but I've missed, flat out choked, on a bunch of deer. I get nervous, I admit it. It's the closeness of the encounter that gets me, and most people. You are so keyed up, thinking if you make the slightest noise, or move at the wrong time, you will blow it, and this often causes you to forget the fundamentals when you finally are able to draw the bow. You just dump it, don't pick a spot, etc. With a rifle, the distance gives you a relaxation factor that you don't have with a bow; that's why it's more fun, but that's also why you blow it. You have to slow down and execute the fundamentals; if the deer busts you, so be it. It's better than wounding one. There is no one who can help you with this. Some people are naturally impervious to nerves and knock them off like flies. I'm not one of those people, so I feel your pain. Good luck, and don't give up. Shooting a lot of does helps you to get over the hump, if you can do that.
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A sharp broadhead placed accurately will kill just as quickly shot from a recurve or longbow as it will shot from a compound. The arrow head kills by cutting.
Honestly it sounds to me like you made a good shot and killed your buck but did not track him down. Tracking skill and patience retrieves a lot more game than following an obvious blood trail to the end does. When you lost good blood then you lost the animal.
I would venture that when you ran out of blood you did random searching.
Hint from me would be to mark the last blood with tape or tp , carefully look for scuff marks in general direction of travel and tiny spots of blood. find something, mark it and go on from there until you find something else. Unraveling a hard trail requires looking under leaves ect that the animal brushes against. The blood will be on the underside and not seen until you turn the branches over.
Question , HOw long did you wait until you started the trail? I never start a trail faster than hour after the hit and then on a marginal hit depending on where the hit is up to four hours.
It is possible that you may have moved the buck after he had gone down if you took the trail too early.
My whole point is that when you hit an animal as hard as you hit that one it probably did not go all that far before laying down.
I believe that you got a good look at the hit because you saw the head sticking out of the far side. That would give you an elevation on the arrow. You had bright red blood,. How much,. Bub bles in it? bright red is usually arterial or lungs. Did it spray out., Puddles, More info.
God bless, Steve
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I might have missed a couple points. After the shot, mark the spot, direction traveled, listen for sounds and wait quietly. Unless it is going to rain, wait 1 hr. follow tracks from the side and mark with surveyor orange tape, periodically. Read some stuff on tracking. Animals react differently when hit solid, make mental notes. Use a sharp, serrated broadhead.
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If you hit where you wanted it would'nt have mattered if it was shot from a compound, crossbow or traditional bow, you would have the same result.
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Hard to say what happened without some more details/pics. Did the blood you found contain bubbles/froathy? Was it light red or dark red. Any hair found? Did you recover the arrow?
If the deer bled heavily for 200 yards and it had bubbles in it my guess is that it is dead. If it was realy dark red and the arrow was not full of stomach contents then my guess is a liver shot. There are just so many variables it is hard to speculate what happened. I do appluad you for giving the 6 hour effort and for having enough respect for the animal to feel remorse and to try so hard. I think that speaks to your character more than if you find a deer or not ..... more hunters need to have these qualities now days. I've seen some that give up after just 30 minutes and say something like "well it was just a doe, or there are too many deer here anyways at least the coyotes will eat well tonight."
The truth is there is never a gaurantee with bow hunting and I don't care if it is traditional or wheelies - sometimes you make a bad shot, sometimes an animal moves, a limb jumps out of nowhere deflecting your shot or you make a great shot and a rib or something deflects the arrow. After almost 4 decades of bowhunting I have seen a little of everything.
As I see it you have a choice - learn all you can from this and then move forward with new determination and let this experience add to your hunting wisdom, or give up trad archery...... only one of these will move you towards becoming a better hunter/man - the other will just teach you to become full of despair whenever something difficult arises and to look for an easy way..... I think you know which one I personally think you should take.
I knwo the feeling, and we all should have a heavy heart when we make a hit and don't recover an animal. But don't let that keep you down. Feel it, become more determined for better results next time, get up and shake the dust off, and get back into the fight.
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when I taught Hunters ed and bowhunter ed I discovered a couple facts. Yes, facts. I made a large model (2D) of a deer with velcro for the front half of the body. I had organs (heart, lungs, liver) wth the opposing velcro glued to it. We had the class go up and show everybody where they went, and then, where to aim.
In ALL my classes, adult, kids, everybody, NOBODY got the placement perfect, and very few got it right at all. For "where to aim", they ALL pointed "behind the shoulder", their shoulder being the point where the front leg meets the body.
We are taught this, passed on down. If you shoot low and a few inches behind this "shoulder" you will miss heart and lungs completely.
Few also understood the complexity of aiming at a deer that is not broadside and at the same height as the bowman. Changing this angle ( from an elevated platform, from angling to or fro) it changes the place where you should aim.
I feel, we miss, mostly because we fail to pick a spot. Lots of pressure at shoot time and this happens a lot.
I also feel that many of us need to spend just a bit of time reviewing anatomy of the critters we hunt. Terry has a thread going near the top of the PowWow for this very topic.
If you hit where you were looking, and got decent penetration, maybe we should discuss where you were looking.
CHuckC
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Thanks for all the words everyone. I'm not giving up, period. Not even an option.
I waited 2hrs before getting down and we waited 4hrs before really taking up the search with 3 of us total. There was no bubbles or froth in the blood eliminating a lung hit to me. The crazy thing is, this deer never bedded. It had blood from both sides until he snapped the arrow off (10 inches of the fetching side). Heavy bright red blood coming from what looked like the entrance side only for the remainder of 200yds. No blood was present at shot impact which was worry some originally.
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If you hit where you were looking, and got decent penetration, maybe we should discuss where you were looking.
Yep--that's it IMO. I've been excited about "perfect" shots at 3D tournaments--hit EXACTLY where I wanted--or so I thought. I've been shooting 3-D for near 20 years, but sometimes I still don't look at the right spot. I may hit the exact spot I'm looking at , and find out I wasn't looking at the right spot.
My bet is you didn't hit vitals.
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Originally posted by medic77:
Thanks for all the words everyone. I'm not giving up, period. Not even an option.
I waited 2hrs before getting down and we waited 4hrs before really taking up the search with 3 of us total. There was no bubbles or froth in the blood eliminating a lung hit to me. The crazy thing is, this deer never bedded. It had blood from both sides until he snapped the arrow off (10 inches of the fetching side). Heavy bright red blood coming from what looked like the entrance side only for the remainder of 200yds. No blood was present at shot impact which was worry some originally.
It is not all that uncommon to not find a lot of blood at the kill site - especially if there is not an exit hole.
Glad you are staying in the game - keep at it things will get better.
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I hit a deer a couple of years ago low like yours and had a great blood trail too. It even looked like blood was spraying but I knew better. I knew I hit him too low and the "spray" was from when the deer shook a little bit and the blood on the belly hair sprayed the blood. I just penetrated the hide but too low to hit vitals. Lost the trail too at about 250 yards. Got a nice pick of the deer about two weeks later on a tail cam in the area so I knew he was fine. I just plain hit him too low.
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Is it possible that your shooting was fine and it is simply your follow up that is flawed...bowhunting requires you to be very sharp at follow up sometimes...also we have read all sorts of accounts on here of some amazing recoveries with a tracking dog...did you try to access one if they are legal to use in your state?
DDave
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I missed reading your last post...sounds like the follow up was sound...in that case I am in agreement with those who speculate you hit that deer below the vitals in which case he will recover quickly and completely...sometimes what we think we see in the heat of the moment and what actually happened are two different things
DDave
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I like to practice at hay bails with no dots or anything just pick a spot on the bail because I've found a bail of hay to be like a deer or other critter and they both have a tuff, of hair or straw, or some other "spot" that will provide an aiming reference. And for what it's worth I can shoot tighter groups on a blank bail than at spots.t
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I shot a nice buck in the liver once and it travelled well over a mile, I tracked the distance with a Garmin GPS. Fortunately for me there was five inches of snow on the ground. After the shot I gave the animal 30 minutes and took up the trail. It never bedded not even once, there was very little blood in the beginning but after a few hundred yards it started coming out both sides and was very easy to follow. I kept thinking this deer will be dead right around the next tree ... well that didn't happen. When I finally spotted him he was just breathing his last and still trying to get up and go ...
My advice is to keep practicing the shooting style that works best for you, don't try and second guess what a deer is going to do when you release an arrow. Some times they duck and sometimes they don't, just pick the spot with the best odds of a clean kill and trust your skills.
I 3D shoot with a guy who is one of the best shots I have ever seen, but he cannot duplicate his 3D results in the hunting woods shooting at critters. If you think target panic or buck fever is your issue there are some good books on that subject. Practice breathing, be calm, don't take risky shots.
Keep at it, build your confidence and skills. Keep whacking those does and the big bucks will come.
Good luck to ya in the future
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Honestly, I can go for a week of shooting without missing the 8-ring on a 3-d deer at 20 steps, But I still miss live game.
Try to hunt some small game, even trash birds like starlings or pigions...this makes you better at live targets.
Make an effort to go to a traditional 3-D shoot and see some other guys shoot.
Hang in there :)
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Well said, Diamond Paul.
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It honestly seems to me... That your shooting, is fine!!!
You just need more "experiance", that's all!
Bowhunting is a complicated endevor. There are many aspects of it, besides just "shooting". Woodsmanship,stand placement,picking a "spot"... Also, picking your shot! Sometimes knowing "when" to shoot, is more important than knowing "how" to shoot... A few years ago, My son Tyler, drew on his first deer. I watched him as my heart pounded in my ears... Then he let down. :confused:
When I asked him why he didn't let it fly? He told me,"There was a stick in the way". I never saw it from my angle, but dang if he didn't go right down there and break it off!!!
Experiance... This isn't "Rocket Science" But, it's not easy either!!! There's no "cut & dried" every situation is differant. In the words of my good friend & fellow Tradanger, Joe Skipp... "If you wanta kill deer, ya gota put wood in the air!!!"
Keep at it, it'll happen!!! Good Luck!!!!!
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I hate you lost your buck and it will take a while for the pain to ease. Dont beat yourself up as I've seen deer take a well placed broadhead into the next county and you probably made a good shot. Anyone in the bowhuntin business has missed or made a bad shot so keep practicing and do your best.
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Some day I walk around shooting dandelion heads at 20yrds then there are those days when I'm having trouble hitting a milk jug.
Some of us are pie plate shooters and others are quarter killers.....
The thing I've found is not to try outside your effective range. Know your range and stick to it no matter what walks out.
Next thing is: you can be the best target shooter in the world but it dosent mean you will be great at hitting animals. Once that heart starts pumping things happen. I don't get buck fever I get deer fever. It dosent matter what's on its head my heart starts pounding and I get the fever. Normally my first shot of the season isn't great, but after that I can calm myself the next time.
Bottom line, your in good company, we miss sometimes and worse some times we loss injured game. We can only try harder to right our mistakes next time. So get back in that tree and punch a tag.
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If anyone tells you they never lost a deer they either just started hunting or not telling the truth.It can be very tough to pick a spot when a nice buck walks up.Shorten up your shots,pick a spot and get back on the horse.Remember a long wait makes for a short track and the opposite holds true as well.
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Ive lost deer with a rifle , shootgun , black powder , compound , but not with a stickbow yet but I have shot over a fews back . It made me sick every time and I still think about each one from time to time . My point being im not a sorry shot but ive hunted alot and had many diffrent shot situatons over the years . Some I shouldnt have taken and some were just like yours , I learned from each . I think you will find this buck if you can get some help . Dont give up hope yet ,
Mike
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I am ok accuracy wise but for me it came down to not forcing a shot that didn't exist ,now I am picky about my shots and only take high % shots if I can . Time will help you learn what shots to take
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Thanks everyone, I needed the discussion.
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I can relate. I grew up shooting a longbow, killing a few big game critters and lots of small game.
In 2001 I happened upon a nice 6x elk, shooting it in what I though was the sweet spot right behind the shoulder blade... Never found found him, searched for 4 days straight. I was so sick that I was puking and still have dreams about the release.
I am just now starting to to get the bug to try this again and appreciate all of very valuable information on this site.
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It happens and sorry about your loss.
Now that's out of the way,
This is strictly my opinion on this matter and the very thing has happened to me.
I truly believe that the benefits of small game hunting w/ bow and arrow will help more to hunt big game w/ bow and arrow than any type of shooting practice one does.
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Medic77:
A few things for your consideration. We often hear it mentioned that someone may have hit the "void" that exists above the lungs, and below the spine. Unfortunately, no such void actually exists.
(http://forums.bowsite.com/tf/pics/00small60405481.JPG)
1. If you are in the area of the lungs, and you are under the spine, you simply can't help but have hit the lungs.
2. A lot of people assume the spine is just under the hide for the entire length of the back. This is not the case.
(http://www.westernkentuckyoutdoors.com/images/carcus_cutaway.jpg)
In the area of the lungs, there is a lot of muscle meat (backstraps) above the spinal column that will bleed profusely for a while, but it's not fatal. (trust me, I know)
3. Note the position of the shoulder blade/bone. in relation to where the leg meets the body.
(http://www.unruly.ca/unruly/wp-content/uploads/deer_anatomy-by-Rembex-via-www.turbosquid.com.jpg)
A lot of people shoot too far back in an attempt to avoid bone that simply isn't where they think it is. Notice in the cutaway picture, the perfect kill shot was directly above the leg, a spot most people try to avoid.
Hope this helps.
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I like the blank target suggestion. I completely missed a couple of deer during times when my target shooting was pretty decent.
I'm sure there was some buck fever but I may have failed to "pick a spot".
I bought a 3-d deer and shot it to pieces. Before I bought it I set a feed bag full of rags laying on it's side on a box so it was a couple of feet off the ground...similar in size/shape of a deer's body.
Unfortunately I can't say whether or not it helped because I haven't even seen a deer this year. Gun season opens in a couple of weeks so my season might be about over...having never really started.
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Something else to consider is how much shooting do you do with broadheads?
Tuning or form errors will show more when shooting broadheads.
Since broadheads and broadhead targets are expensive, I often include a bare shaft or two in with my practice arrows (field/target tips). When my shooting is good, I really don't need fletching inside of 25 yards.
When my shooting isn't so good, those bare shafts will show it as will a broadhead.
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Tooner. A good set of photos- but notice the skeletal illustration is not accurate either (always a problem with most diagrams and illustrations). It shows the spine too high.
Your actual anatomy photos are obviously perfect. Hope folks can see, that at the heart (front of chest cavity)- the spine is just shy of being half-way down the deer. I am convinced many "perfect" hits are above the spine on treestand shot deer.
Agree on all your counts, including no "void." Been trying to communicate a bunch of that for years.
Also- interesting enough too- when the leg moves "forward" the shoulder blade actually moves "down" covering the top of the vitals. A guy is better to shoot when the leg is "back" thus the shoulder blade is up and out of the way.
I like to shoot just a few inches above that "elbow-leg joint" of the deer.
Dan in KS
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Straight up above the front leg is where to shoot for. A anything behind the shoulder is bad ju ju unless the animal is quartering away. I always try to imagine hitting a basketball between their front shoulders.
Sorry you lost one, it happens.
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Certainly we all have experienced this I'm sure. My thoughts are maybe it wasn't the shooting but maybe it was the sharpness of the head. An old wise hunter showed my how a BH can actually push some things like arteries away rather than cutting. He hunted his entire life with a recurve, even in rifle season. Always got a buck and a bear. He also was a buthcher by trade. Most of his time spent on the kill floor. I've never seen knives or BH's as sharp as he used to get them.
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Unfortunately this is bow hunting and most of us have lost deer due to the occasional errant shot. It can be a game of inches, and at times can be heartbreaking. Like anything else worth doing it takes a lot of effort in all areas of preparation and practice. It is definitely not for everyone. But having said that I think one of the hardest things to deal with is failure. But you have to deal with failure to achieve victory. If you can't then you will quit. Remember you are not going through anything that we haven't all gone through. Don't give up, keep going and you will achieve success, it is right around the corner! :thumbsup: Good hunting and God bless, Gary.
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Originally posted by KSdan:
Tooner. A good set of photos- but notice the skeletal illustration is not accurate either (always a problem with most diagrams and illustrations). It shows the spine too high.
You're right Dan. I noticed that and I should have taken more time to find a better illustration. This one is probably closer to being accurate.
(http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/deer_anatomy.jpg)
Thanks.
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Tooner- good! Your cutaway carcass is perfect though. PMd you as well.
Here is a spine shot deer. Trad off the ground. Dropped in his tracks.
(http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/danrudman/anatomyspinehit.jpg) (http://s106.photobucket.com/user/danrudman/media/anatomyspinehit.jpg.html)
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Here is another. Centered through the heart. Note though: The front leg is hanging unnaturally forward - in real life the "elbow-leg joint" would be directly below the bloody entrance hole you see. Notice the dark angling line above the vital area. That is the actual spine. Notice the dimensions. This deer was a field dressed 220# deer.
(http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/danrudman/broadsidedimensions.jpg) (http://s106.photobucket.com/user/danrudman/media/broadsidedimensions.jpg.html)
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Been there, done that, got the t shirt. Hated it, just like you, but it happens.
Lots of good advice above. I strongly recommend looking long and hard at the photos and diagrams Tooner posted, and try to get in the habit of visualizing where the anatomic structures are on EVERY animal you see, even the Budweiser horses on tv.When you find yourself looking at a deers vital organs and skeletal components, instead of a blob of brown, you will automatically be better focused.When its too dark to visualize the internal anatomy, its too dark for me to shoot, even when I can see the outlines of that solid brown body of a deer well withing range.
I also endorse the recommendation to practice on "blank" targets. I never practice on a marked target or even foam critters...as I never see any animals with rings on them,etc. I use a burlap sack tightly stuffed with plastic bag from the grocery, Wally world, etc. Its portable,easy to hang from a limb or set on a stump , about the same size as a deer's body. Try not to aim at the same spot over and over but a different spot with each arrow...it really builds confidence when you know you can hit the aiming points that YOU choose rather than the one a target manufacturer chose. Like I say, you're gonna do the choosing in the woods. Finally, I also found that if I am getting flyers, I back up. I do a better job of focusing on my spot when I have to work a bit harder.
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Tooner great info and photos . Thanks for taking the time to put them up for us .
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Really appreciate the pictures and advice from everyone. I am being really hard on myself but if I had an opportunity at the same shot now I would take it again. Everything was perfect but me. That's what is so hard to swallow but it will make me a better hunter and person in the longrun.
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Cut out a cardboard outline of the typical sized deer for your area. No marks, just a brown outline, and pick a spot, not an area, helped me get a spot and how to maintain it thru out the draw-anchor sequence. Lots of good comments above.
If you study tooner's pics, try to get the close leg forward as that exposes the vitals without the elbow
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I don't care how much you study the photos. Medic looks and sounds to be an accomplished bowhunter and understands shot angle, sharpness, ect,ect. If you kill enough game w/ a bow and arrow, one will realize that a sizeable % of where you thought you hit game isn't reality.
Buck fever is a very hard thing for some to overcome, me included. I can knock the crap out of my dot and 3D target but for me, nothing replaces shooting at a live animal.
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Originally posted by overbo:
I don't care how much you study the photos. Medic looks and sounds to be an accomplished bowhunter and understands shot angle, sharpness, ect,ect. If you kill enough game w/ a bow and arrow, one will realize that a sizeable % of where you thought you hit game isn't reality.
Buck fever is a very hard thing for some to overcome, me included. I can knock the crap out of my dot and 3D target but for me, nothing replaces shooting at a live animal.
I agree overbo, but the point of the of the pictures was to illustrate exactly where the "dot" should actually be.
There are a lot of very good archers/hunters that continue to have trouble getting the results they want on live game. They blame it on things such as buck fever, not picking a spot, rushing the shot, the animal ducking the string, etc. Those are all valid things that do indeed happen, but in many cases the hunter did exactly what he set out to do, and did hit exactly where he thought he did. Unfortunately, the spot he was looking at, and ultimately hit, was not the spot the contained the vital organs.
Taken in isolation, the good stuff is all pretty much located directly above the leg, not so much behind it. Get too far behind it and while you might have a fatal hit, you have a very long, often unsuccessful tracking job on your hands.
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b552/Tooner606/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps659e6b68.jpg)
Hitting the spot is only half the battle. Knowing where the right spot is, is the other half. Few of us ever hit exactly what we are looking at. Misses of a few inches right/left/up/down are common. Why start out aiming at edge of the kill zone and not the middle (which is almost directly above the leg on a whitetail deer)?
When you start out aiming at the middle, you have a 360 degree margin for error. If you aim at one edge, you cut that margin for error to 180 degrees.
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Good point overbo.
I've shot a bunch of small game but practice/experience shooting at deer is harder to come by. Every year the hunting I have available seems to get worse and I see fewer and fewer deer.
I haven't been able to hunt much this year (nowhere to hunt where there are deer) and I sure haven't seen a deer while bow was in hand.
If I do get in shooting range of a deer this season it'll probably be a heart attack sort of event. LOL
I wasn't going to even buy a tag this season but I got weak, bought one and feel like a fool for sending the state more money.
Unless I can find a way to really make some earth shattering changes, I very may just let it go.
I'm getting pretty good at hitting paper, tin cans and other small and interesting things I find to hang in front of the target bag. That may just be as good as it gets.
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The same holds true for being a successful 3D shooter.
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b552/Tooner606/1-Deer-Quartering-Right-01_zps5870d5f9.jpg)
For an example, if you were to encounter this scenario on a 3D course, what would you shoot for? If you are looking for hunting practice, the white dot would be the "spot." On the other hand, if you were looking for the best score, the black dot would be the "spot." The black spot would be a 10 or 11 and the white spot could very well be a 5.
This is why some guys (like me) have a hard time shooting really well on a 3D course. I tend to shoot the animal exactly where I would shoot if I were hunting. That is not always conducive to shooting the highest score.
A friend of mine (who is great on 3D) once told me that if I wanted to score well on a 3D course, I needed to learn to shoot the targets where they want me to hit them, not where I want to hit them.
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I don't think Medic started this thread to get a arrow placement lesson. I believe it's about preparing oneself for that moment before the bow is drawn. So much of this is between the ears when it comes to shooting at live game. For me, squirrel hunting has been a huge confidence builder and a step into hunting that's been lost.
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In my fairly long bowhunting career (1967) I always shot so the arrow passed through the center of the biggest vital area which is the lung area. So I would have aimed at Tooner's buck above about 4-5" higher than the white dot but right in line with it. I never purposely aimed low or real forward.
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I'm sorry if I offended you overbo, but I was trying to help, based on some of the things medic was saying.
Originally posted by medic77:
The only thing I can think of on the arrow placement is I hit below the lungs/liver. I stayed off the shoulder 3-4 inches (which has been a nemesis) and aimed lower third because I have had issues with deer jumping the string. The arrow was a pass thru but not complete.
Anatomically speaking, you simply cannot be 3 or 4 inches off the shoulder, and be below the lungs and liver. You can be below the lungs and liver be shooting 3 or 4 inches "off the shoulder" if you are mistaken where the shoulder actually is. If you think the shoulder is directly above the elbow, which many people do, and you are 3 or 4 inches off that, you are in a very ugly spot, making for a very long, and often unsuccessful tracking job.
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b552/Tooner606/5c1d6f92-d8ad-4e84-aaf3-71639c695a71_zps94a869cc.jpg)
That's all I was trying to say.
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Tooner, not offended at all.
I read Medics original post as a search for a tool to better his shooting at live game. Then many post a lengthy shot placement response. Don't know Medic personally, but from his post he seems like he understands shot placement(I hope).
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I understand shot placement but a review for me is never going to hurt for myself or anyone. Thank you for the photos. It all comes down to my delusional, partially clouded view of the shot that I made i guess. In still sticking with the shot looked good but the proof is in the pudding.
I do shoot at a 3d deer target for the entire year but it doesn't look at me and make me a slobbering shaky mess
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Tooner, most people call the deer's elbow the shoulder. That's what they were taught. At least, every single class of hunter ed I taught suggested that.
Knowing anatomy is not an ingrained thing and folks shouldn't get upset or feel slighted when it is pointed out.
Medic stated he hit right where he looked. I suggest if he DID, and the deer still got away, then it is somewhat likely that maybe, just maybe, he was looking in the wrong place. The above posts very nicely added information to everybody's knowledge banks.
This is important stuff folks !
ChuckC
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Very important, especially for everyone's sleep and sanity. Both of which I have been short of lately since the "incident"
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I believe, your hit was good with an entry and exit wound. Blood for over 200 yds, should meant a dead deer. Unless the deer entered water, or doubled back. Waiting as long as you did, I am as anxious as everyone to know what happened to that deer. I'm guessing, but I think it died within a 100 ft. of where you ended the search. Possibly doubled back and was off the side of the trail. Unless someone found it, or something dragged it off.
Did you go back and retrace the steps, within a few days? May have missed your follow up.
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Fisher Cat nailed it, for me at least. Well put Sir.