Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Bowwild on February 14, 2015, 08:57:00 PM
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Sometimes I have second thoughts about selling a bow here because I don't want the bowyer who made it to feel bad.
Those who make em, does it bother you to see your bow's go second-hand?
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I am not a bowyer but am glad to see that someone appreciates the craftsmanship ,time ,and sweat as I do. Ric
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Great question. Ive wondered the same.
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Yep, I have often wondered the same thing when I sell a bow.
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I am not a bowyer either, but I'll bet most understand that there are a thousand different bows out there, and most of us are on a journey to find "the one". It took me almost 20yrs to find "the one", and while I still admire many bows, I am no longer looking for another one!
Bisch
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Maybe they feel a bit let down, but when it gets snapped up quickly on the classifieds that may go away.
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Personally it has never bothered me. I look at it as exposure for my product. If a bow changes hands then it will be exposed to another group of people who get to see what Holm-Made Bows is putting out. In this mail order type of business that is important. I want as many people to handle my bows as possible.
On a similar note, I used to call customers several months after I sold them a bow to check on how the bow is working out. I quit doing that because I could tell some customers were uncomfortable telling me that they sold the bow or preferred to hunt with a different bow, etc.
This is a tough business to make it in as is shown in the amount of bow businesses that come and go. I'm sure that any bowyer that has been in business any amount of time has enough confidence in their product and themselves that it wouldn't bother them to see someone sell their bows.
Chad
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I was just thinking about this today glad you ask
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I'm no bowyer, but I have a little business sense, and I think Chad hit the nail on the head.
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I think bowyers realize archers are a fickle lot.
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I don't pay much attention to the classified ads myself. But honestly i was surprised to see how many guys buy and sell these custom built bows with so little attachment to them.....Then again, some folks trade in their cars and trucks every year for a new one... What can you say?
I'm one of those guys that drive the same rig for 10 years or more, & have hunted with the same bow for years now.
To answer your question Roy, sometimes it bothers me..... Sometimes it just don't matter. I don't let it hurt my feelings one way or the other.
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My bowyer should feel good, I will never sell my TC! It's MY bow.
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If you make a good bow it should be shooting arrows,no matter who's hands it is in,otherwise its useless,even if it is beautiful
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Being a long time bow collector who's moved all over the country, I've made friends with quite a few bowyers, nearly all my friends know I love hunting with classic recurves(often-not always-but I don't emphasize that!) I found it bothered me to have a bow made by a friend and for me to be embarrassed if he asked what I killed a critter with, or what bow I used last season, etc....or even to see me walking around a 3D shoot with a different custom bow! They were big boys and knew the facts, but I never felt sheepish if I was using a 60s Black Widow, Bear, Wing,or Drake. It would be the same way if a buddy made me a knife and later saw me with another on a hunt.
Not to say I haven't used customs, but usually I buy them off the used market. I very rarely order a new custom bow and it's gotta be one that's unique or special in some way. And, it's likely to be a pretty recent design. I've bought 20 year old bows by a couple of bowyers with the best reputation today, and found them pretty ordinary, if compared to recent bows by their top competition. Some bowyers don't really change anything for a VERY long time(and some of them produce more and more elegant versions of the same designs...not something I will criticize!) But, if I'm going to order a new one today, it's going to be based on the expectation of exceptional performance(most everything else-craftsmanship, fit, finish-is a given with top bowyers today).
OK, this went far afield from the original topic. Most really good bowyers SHOULD be proud and want to see you using the best product they could make! I'd wonder about one who-deep inside-wasn't disappointed if you didn't. But, it isn't really about them or THEIR ability. We're the ones who characteristically think another bow is going to make us a better archer. They're just responding to the demand of a population of starry- eyed "traditionalists!) There is likely someone somewhere who could take the worst bow I ever had and stomp my butt on a 3-D course. I just keep trying more of them because it's so damned much fun!
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It honestly used to bother the heck out of me. Then I started getting feedback and reports from people that got them second hand and how much they liked the bow and I began to understand that some people are fickle. It bothers me when someone gets a bow that I put my heart into specially for them and the shoot it one time and sell it. That is not giving oneself time to even know the bow. But hey its your buck and if that is how much time you want to give it then its not my problem.
However I have not had to deal with much of this as most of the bows I build stay with the first buyer and never make an add for sale .
God bless, Steve
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I've often wondered the same thing Roy and I I've had that conversation with a great friend of mine who is a bowyer and he said the same thing Sixby said. Sometimes it bothered him and sometimes it didn't. When it bothered him it more had to do with him really wanting that person to enjoy the bow and being let down if they didn't.
With that said, a lot of us have been through bows like a used car salesman. We each have our likes and dislikes and sometimes the dislikes are simply for cosmetic issues. I once ordered a new bow just because I thought it was the most beautiful bow made so without ever even holding or shooting one I pulled the trigger on it. Waited impatiently the 12 months and when the time came that it arrived I pulled it out of the box and I really couldn't stand the thing. Not a thing wrong with the bow. It shot fantastic with the best manners in the world. I just simply didn't like it because the riser was so big and bulky.
I would think a bowyer reaches a point where they realize that everyone has their reasons for selling and it may have nothing in the world to do with the bow.
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This could also benefit the bowyer.the last bow I purchased used was a t ghost hybrid.im the third owner and I absolutely love the bow.after shooting it for a couple weeks I called kent and ordered another.sure am glad someone else passed on this one lol
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Don't forget, not everyone sells a bow because they don't like it. I've sold many a bow because I needed the cash. Wish I had every one of them back.
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I hope my Bowyer understands that I am not "fickle". I have put many hours and days of thought into what I want. I hope he will put his heart and soul into that bow and that all his other bows that went to the classifieds doesn't jade him into building just "another" bow.
Its good to hear feedback from the bowyers.
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A couple of years ago I had a new bow made. Talked at length with the bowyer and he made my bow exactly to my specs-except, he had made changes to the design and hadn't updated his website. When I opened the box, I hated the bow. It shot great, handled well, but it wasn't the design I wanted. No way of doing anything about, the bowyer had sold his business, mine was the last bow he made, and he finished it after all his equipment was gone. I couldn't hold the new bowyer accountable, so I traded it away.
Many of us read reviews of a bow and decide "that's the bow I need". When we get it, it doesn't fit/look/shoot as well for us as expected or as well as what we already had.
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I appreciate hearing from bowyers as well. I think I can honestly say I have really tried to like some bows that I bought but in the end they were not for me.
In a few cases I just wanted to try something different- it's fun to try a different design.
I think it would bother me ( if I was a builder) so I try to be discreet about commenting, as without exception every bow I have bought was well built and finished. Just not for me.
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I honestly suspect that a majority of bowyers seldom see the classifieds anywhere and have little idea of their bows (specific ones) being sold to another buyer.
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Any business that wants to survive, not just bowyers, would benefit from having a better understanding of what motivates its customers to do things. Sometimes that understanding might be painful, and sometimes it could be difficult to discover, as the customers either might not know why they made a particular decision or may be reluctant to discuss their reasons. But still, if I were a bowyer and found out that my customers sold the bows I made more often than they sold other bowyers' bows, it would be a useful thing to know in making future plans. Big corporations spend millions trying to find out this kind of information. Most small businesses don't have a clue as to what their customers are thinking or how they stack up against their competition, which is one of the reasons why 9/10 small businesses fail within a few years.
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Last fall the 2009-10 St. Judes "Faith" bow, a Dryad Orion that Mike, Jason and John had put their best work into and a bow that had serious hunting mojo, showed up on the big auction site , offered by a pawn shop. I was so shocked I assumed the bow had been stolen , so I contacted Terry to identify the auction winner, who was in the same town as the pawn shop and a bowyer, himself, and I tried without success to reach him. So I contacted Mike and he had heard nothing about that bow since the auction.
I didn't feel right about it so I didnt bid and the bow came and went 3 times on the auction site before somebody finally bid on it. That's the worst fate, in my mind, for a custom bow...sitting in a pawn shop somewhere. Mike , Jason and John have continued to improve their products and create a market for their new bows and limbs.
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I would feel like I betrayed a friend if I sold my 2 great northerns. I think this is why I will end up with a wall full of bows. Used bows on the other hand, I've bought and sold without any second thought.
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Thanks for the input!
I've never bought a bow because I thought it would make me better. I'm usually drawn to the appearance of the bow, workmanship, and the bowyer's reputation. I do own two (of only 13) that are metal risers and will accept highly tunable springy/plunger rests. However, I miss the beauty of wood when I shoot these bows.
I have moved one bow of about 30 or so these past 5-6 years because it was a "dud". I'm sure mine was a flier because the bowyer has a very good and decades-long reputation.
I have also moved a few because of the appearance.
I don't consider myself a collector and almost all my bows are by a different bowyer. However, some of them have never been hunted and probably won't be, simply because I like the look and feel of some others. These are the ones that I sometimes wonder why I keep them.
Oddlly, I long to settle on a particular bow model and just get rid of all the others and have only 2-3 from the same bowyer. Getting rid of them because I feel wasteful in owning bows that I just get a kick out of handling from time to time. But, when I make the list of which ones to sell I'm sort of like Steven Martin in the "Jerk", when he was moving out of his home to go on his own... I need this one, and this one, oh, and that one....It's hard to let go of some.
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I like to think all of my bows have a niche. I have a shorter recurve for blinds, a longer lighter poundage for target rounds and something 3pc that is heavy enough to hunt up to an elk or black bear. If I get carried away with the number of bows I have I feel selfish and try to sell them to someone who would use them as more than unneeded eye candy on the wall. I am not a bowyer, but I would try see building a bow more as a business transaction. If everyone just bought one bow and stayed with it and people weren't constantly having bows built, selling them off and having more built a great deal of boyers would go out of business.
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Bows are like hot women. No matter how hot they look... some one is tired of shooting them. :biglaugh:
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I agree that a lot of us bowhunters are a fickle bunch, when it comes to shooting, hunting, buying and selling. But that is what makes the love for traditional collecting and hunting so much fun. And don't forget a lot of times ones circumstances determines the selling of what you have. I have sold a few bows that I said I would never part with, because of age changing my capabilities. I feel like 9 times out of 10 the selling of a first class bowyers bow, has nothing to do with the not liking his bow.
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It does a bowyer no good for you to 'hold onto' a bow just so you wont hurt his feelings....least that's my take if I were a bowyer.
I'd want you to sell it to seomeon who likes my bows, or someone that would fall in love with my bows....so they would get used and talked about.
for what ever that's worth.
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I have bought and sold many bows.I never sold a single one because it was a bad shooter.Most of the times its because my tastes have changed or the grass is greener type of thing or just can't physically handle the weight.Also I came to the conclusion as a few have said that it just wasn't prudent for me to keep a bunch of bows to decorate the walls with.On the other hand I've bought bows used that maybe were not what I wanted as far as wood etc to see how they shot then sold them and ordered a new one with the wood I desired.I've done that a few times as I'm sure others have and I'm sure that bowyer would think that is a good thing!
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I was at a 3D shoot a few years back with a couple of gentlemen from the other side of the state. They were shooting bows made by a well known bowyer (no longer in business) that looked just fantastic. I tried them out, though, and decided I just didn't care for the feel and cast of the bow. If I were to have purchased one simply by word of mouth it probably would have been sold by me to another interested party. Not a slight to the bowyer but a personal preference.
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I thought Chad Holms remarks indicated a really healthy attitude. I've sold a few of Chad's bows; at least one of them back to Chad himself as a down payment on a new one.
I'll order one from him again when I get my "bow funds" back up where I want them. This next one will be the dual shelf I keep talking about.
I'm not searching for "THE ONE". I've owned and sold quite a few bows that were as good as it gets. I just want to try as many as I can from different makers and as many models as possible from each maker.
It isn't chance that keeps me coming back to Chad and I'm glad he understands that some of us are "bowaholics" and can't help it :(
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One thing I have noticed is that some folks have bought used custom bows and were not happy with the way the bow felt to them.
In the case of my bows and some other bowyers this simply could be that case that over 90 percent of the bows I build are custom fit to the customers hand and shooting style and not generic grips. What fits one person perfectly may not work for you at all. I have had customers that love grips and give dimensions of grips that have hands twice as large as normal and If you bought one of those bows you would hate it. However that is not a reason to not have that bowyer not build you a bow. Ask any bowyer that you like the bows he builds if they shape and fit to the customers hand and shooting style or if the have just one or two certain styles of grip that they build.
God bless, Steve
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I bought a second-hand static-tipped recurve from Sixby that he made for someone else. I really liked the bow, but the grip didn't fit me well. I sent it back to him and he reshaped the grip to fit me...now it is one of my favorites. I realize this is a bit tangential to the topic, but I posted it anyway because things can often be tweaked rather than sold.
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I've bought only 1 new truly custom bow from discussing the project with the bowyer to seeing the product of his talents. Sixby made that bow for me and it is not one I will be letting go of.
It is as perfect a representation of his talents and my preferences in a hunting bow as could be madee
With that said, I own many, many other bows. Buy, sell, and trade a lot just to experience different bows from different bowyers. Have little to no true attachment to the vast majority of those and will sell/trade most of them at some point.
I understand the exposure to other archers a bowyer gets when one of their bows is sold second-hand. I believe that exposure leads to many orders for new bows.
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I've owned custom made bows and let them go while using the funds to purchase a different type of bow from the same bowyer. Just trying different lengths or designs and poundages out.
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It's something I think about,but I'm not going to keep a bow I don't like. I would try to be as discreet as I could about it. I think custom bowyers take a lot of pride in what they do,and it's bound to have an affect on some of them.
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Here's a silly story that happened last week. I had commented that I wish I had a bow with Macassar Ebony in it. A bowyer commented that "Roy, you do unless you've already sold it!" The bowyer was the one who made it for me about 10 months ago!
Yikes, he was right I did have one and nope, I hadn't sold it.
I'm glad forgetting bow woods is #11 on the "10 signs you might have alzheimer's"!
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In our poverty, a seasoned bowyer is able to discern our weakness and accepts the reality of ambiguity.
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Well hope you bowyers don't feel bad! Helps guys like me. I buy almost all of my gear second hand. Note because I am cheap (haha I prefer frugal) but, there isn't any places around me to try new stick bows. So I buy and sell used bows as a way of trying them out. If I can get a good deal on a bow used and I just don't like it I can resell it (minus shipping) for what I have in it. If I ever find my quest for "The One Bow" at an end you can bet your butt, I will have brand new one built!
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Originally posted by Holm-Made:
Personally it has never bothered me. I look at it as exposure for my product. If a bow changes hands then it will be exposed to another group of people who get to see what Holm-Made Bows is putting out. In this mail order type of business that is important. I want as many people to handle my bows as possible.
On a similar note, I used to call customers several months after I sold them a bow to check on how the bow is working out. I quit doing that because I could tell some customers were uncomfortable telling me that they sold the bow or preferred to hunt with a different bow, etc.
This is a tough business to make it in as is shown in the amount of bow businesses that come and go. I'm sure that any bowyer that has been in business any amount of time has enough confidence in their product and themselves that it wouldn't bother them to see someone sell their bows.
Chad
To ad to this sometimes after the bow has sold and the person says to you, why did I ever sell it, that is a good feeling
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I have never sold a bow that I had made - never. I don't know why but I just can't seem to let them go - most have very fond memories attached. I have on occasion bought and sold some used bows.
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I can't say I ever felt a bowyer, so it is hard for me to say how they feel. :D Hehe I couldn't help it.
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To me, bows are Like women; some you fall in love with and would give anything to get, then after time you realize that beauty is only skin deep and they lose their luster. Others just dont feel or look right, so you continue searching. Good ones, with power, balance, good cast and beauty are a sight to behold. Keepers are difficult to find, but once you do, they are worth hanging onto for life.
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Not really, unless, it's one of those times that a guy will ask me to make him one at the lowest budget I can come up with, You who? Like "I don't care, make it from scraps, like those M.U.T.T. bows you used to make, I just need to save some money but I really need a bow" Then make it, put my name on it, fully expecting him to keep it, only to see it on a classified ad.
It's funny but I got a Two tracks made by Chuck Deshler like that on a trade; when I e-mailed him about it he told me he made it for a friend expecting him to keep it. But I got it on trade and was going to sell it but won't out of respect for Chuck. I told him if he wants his "experimental bow" back to let me know. (I basically lost $400 on that deal, but I got a two tracks bow that shoots great)
If it's a good representation of my work I don't mind if it gets sold.
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How about you build a bow for a friend's son-in-law with his help for free and the guy disappears a week later. Then you get a call from a friend at the pawn shop letting you know he has a very nice bow and that I can have first dibs on the bow. You guessed it.............son-in-law got $35 at the pawn shop. Bright side: I did get the bow back for the $35.
James
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I would think that most bowyers know that a good % of traditional archers are searching for that magic bow that doesn't exist.
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I build all self bows. I don't make it a habit of selling them very often. But, if I gift them or sell them the owners are getting them for a reason. Swapping and selling it would be harder than cutting your arm off with a dull pocket knife. That's the same for any self bow I've ever been gifted. There is something about "live" bows that doesn't make it easy to ditch them. That's just my spin.
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Chris, I hear that, If I were ever to come into one of your bows , no way would it leave me until I leave the earth. God bless, Steve
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In order to pull the trigger on a new bow many of us have to justify it by selling an existing bow. As a collective group it would seem to be a good thing for Bowyers in general when a bow is sold because that often means someone is going to get an order ;)
It would be best for bowyers to look at this from a macro economics standpoint. People who buy and sell bows frequently are the backbone of their business. Sure they may sell one to buy from another bowyer but sometimes the reverse will be true as well. A bow being sold means there is money in the system for another, and some bowyer is going to benefit. If we all bought the perfect bow the first time there would be no need for another.
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Yes Whip, that's true, but how would we KNOW that we had bought the perfect bow the first time? I think I would have to go through at least 20 more bows before I could be comfortable with that conclusion.
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Actually I'd rather see I bow I built get sold, than have the customer call me and say "Look dude, my wife is really mad that I bought another bow, can I return it for a refund?" It's usually not a big deal because I can sell it pretty quick, but I'd rather see him take the initiative and sell it himself, or even better, grow some man parts.
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I make my living as an artist/sculptor, and it is often rough letting a piece go to the original purchaser. Once I actually turn loose of something, it matters not at all to me if it is resold or given away.
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People are fickle. I used to make custom rifles with accuracy being the primary focus. I had a guy who commissioned maybe 10 rifles over the years. He loved everyone of them (he said) but sold each one within a few years. He was one who loved getting a new one and the excitement that came with that. It took me a while to accept that because I am the opposite. I also have guys who still have the same rifle after 25yrs and will never sell them.
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I'm guessing a lot of new bows are sold because the buyers soon realized they were over bowed.
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Originally posted by Sixby:
Chris, I hear that, If I were ever to come into one of your bows , no way would it leave me until I leave the earth. God bless, Steve
Steve, PM me if you'd like to share each others work.
Thanks
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After the crying stops ,sometimes takes days.No, really I understand like anything we all have a type of feel in a bow that is personal. I changed as I found something that seemed better before I became a bowyer and sometimes I had regrets. No bad against a bowyer or bow .The bow will make its way to someone who its perfect for.
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Sometimes a bow is beautiful, shoots great etc but is just not a good fit for the buyer. When that happens, as it does with all kinds of things from shoes to blue jeans to bows, best to send it on its way with good wishes to someone who will make it their new best friend.
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Agreed Susan.
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One good thing from this thread is that it looks like I am going to be the proud owner of something I have always wanted , a custom hand made osage bow by a great craftsman. That is just too cool and I now get to see what it feels like to anticipate a new bow. (Grin)
God bless, Steve