Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: archer66 on February 22, 2015, 11:01:00 AM
-
This is an offshoot from a comment I received in a "which" bow thread posted by another member.
I'm 5'8" and have always favored short tip to tip bows. I am a stationary bowhunter through and through either hunting turkeys or whitetailed deer from a ground blind or a tree stand. For both applications I need a bow that is maneuverable and I need to not have to worry about the tips hitting anything as I prepare for the shot and make the shot.
I've shot a lot of longer bows and while I shoot them well standing in the yard I have concern that I won't be comfortable with them in a treestand or ground blind. I understand that a solution for this is to cant the bow. I CAN cant the bow to shoot but it's not my natural tendency to cant very much...typically I cant maybe 5 degrees off center. When I choose to cant the bow a lot more I'm still accurate but it's not normal for me and I don't know how good I'd be at it under pressure.
So I assume what I'm going to learn here from you guys is to put myself in more situations during practice that requires me to cant the bow more and thus making it more natural??
I'd like to hear from more of you shorter stature guys about your LONG bow experiences.
-
I might (optimistically) be 5'6 in my hunting boots. I've never hunted with a recurve under 64 and prefer 66. Recently fooling around with a Northern Mist Hill style I was shooting 68. I was taught to shoot with classic form (what many guys think is 'target' form) with minimal cant. I have never had a problem with bow clearance and working around limbs or whatever takes care of itself. Frankly when you get into a heavy cant situation its generally real close shot distance anyhow, if you see what I mean. I would advise you not to overthink it. Sure if you want you can make a conscious effort to change up cant angles when you practice. If a 4 or6 inch longer bow gives you fits in a tree stand just buy and use a pruning saw. :)
R
-
Im also 5' 8" and I shoot a 64" longbow. I actually prefer the longer length bows vs shorter ones. Never really had the length of the bow hinder me in anyway.
I do cant the bow...but not anything extreme.
-
Interesting.....Ryan...I tend to do a LOT of thinking, not always to my benefit. I'll try to open my mind a bit more.
-
I guess the question that needs to be asked is why shoot a longer bow with a 25" draw length? There would be no advantage that i could see at all... actually... i see more disadvantages in your case.
-
I'm a full 1/4" taller than Ryan (I think) :D , I shoot a 64" D/R longbow almost all the time.
Never a prob in treestands, blinds for turkey(which I absolutely hate to be in anyway) are a prob if they aren't tall ones.
-
Originally posted by Kirkll:
I guess the question that needs to be asked is why shoot a longer bow with a 25" draw length? There would be no advantage that i could see at all... actually... i see more disadvantages in your case.
Can you tell me more about that? I notice on many bowyers sites that a buyer should choose bow length based on draw length. I assume this is because a short draw length on a long bow doesn't take much advantage of the limbs ability to do work meaning loss of efficiency because only the distal ends of the limbs are used rather than the "meat" of the limb nearer the riser????? Something like that?
-
What Kirk said. Also, if you favor short bows, why mess with it? I'm 5'9" and draw 26.5". I get better performance out of my short bows and prefer them for this reason and many of the ones that you mentioned above.
I've shot many 62" & 64" bows but never shot them any better than I do a 56" or a 58".
I think it's a mental thing in many cases. I used to believe that a longer bow was more forgiving, smoother, etc., because that is what I heard and read. While this may be true for some people, and some bow designs, it simply didn't work out that way for me and the type of bows that I shoot.
Most of it is in the bow design. Many of today's short, hybrid R/D bows would surprise the heck out of most guys if they would give them a chance. You just have to get past the "longbows are supposed to be long" mentality.
I remember when I was shooting a 62" bow almost exclusively and made the mistake of shooting a little 52" Shrew at Kzoo that blew my mind!
-
I'm thinking why shoot a longer bow.....maybe this is a reason. You maybe able to shoot more weight with a longer bow......more mechanical advantage. A 45# bow 56" long will not feel the same as a 45# bow 68" long.......The long one will feel lighter. So you could maybe move up in poundage........or not!
-
Throw a 30"+ draw in the equation and see which way you go. Long or short.
-
The 25" draw is an important factor in relation to bow design. Most of the magnum bows are designed to be shot with pretty high brace to create more pre-stress in the limbs. A lot of folks don't like the way magnum recurves "stack" as you pass 28 inches, and you really do run out of flex in the limbs around 30" . But at 25" you are getting really good efficiency out most short recurve bows. Conversely, some of the long recurves, 64-66", really deliver a lot of zing with that last inch or two of draw to 28" and really get some energy out of a 29-30" draw..those tips are efficiently leveraging that string forward. It's like casting in the surf with a 14"rod..timing and a little bit more flex in the tip of the rod makes for amazing casts. I shoot recurves from 52-66", and I wont deny that a 52" bow is so much fun to carry in the woods and sets very light on your lap in a stand or blind. I wouldn't choose to shoot Olympic ranges with one, as they are not going to cast an arrow as efficiently 70 yards downrange.
-
I am 5'9" and prefer longbows of 68" length and have a draw length of only 25". I think they pull more smoothly. Granted, I don't need that much length, but I just like it. Oddly, canting the bow has never been an issue for me, even though my natural stance is straight up.
Kirkll, what are some of the disadvantages of the longer bows at my draw length? Don't get too technical with an explanation, because I do not understand much of the mechanics of how the bow works. I have always been driven more by feel and a sense of esthetics. Thanks.
-
Originally posted by daveycrockett:
Throw a 30"+ draw in the equation and see which way you go. Long or short.
How many 5'8" guys are there that have a 30 inch draw?? I'd be anchoring behind my ear....which I guess is possible.....just not comfortable to me.
Obviously as all can see by my original post and my replies, I am open to learning from ALL of you guys. Archery is NOT a "one size fits all" sport that's for sure and topics like this really prove it.
-
I have had a bowyer shoot with me and he told me to come to anchor and then cant the bow until I was looking down the arrow. Try It. Also there are many bush bows that go to 28 -29 inch draws that are made for blinds. I get a little finger pinch at my 30" draw but only a few shoots with broadheads and I am ready to go. After all I am not walking the range shooting 200 arrows like I do with the longer bow.
-
Well sure, draw length is part of it..I draw a true 29.5 (I'm about wide as I am tall, I guess). A longer bow does not have to be inefficient at shorter draw lengths, though. (you'll read all the time on here about short bows designed for longer draws, the inverse holds true as well).
R
-
I'm 67" and I shoot a 68" longbow (the Vixen), 27" draw length. I think bow design plays a factor. I haven't heard of many people favor shorter ASL style bows, probably a reason. I have owned and shot 58" recurves, 60" R/D's, etc. Physics is physics. Short bows with a longer draw will crowd your fingers more or "pinch". Longer bows with a shorter draw will reduce the working area of the limbs and effect performance potential. As for "stability" thats pretty speculative I think. Bow design (woods, glass, mass, etc) can change a simple design drastically. So, lets put physics behind for now. I don't hunt from stands, but people do with 68"+ bows. Blinds is a different story. Blind size matters of course but I still wouldnt want to hunt in one with a 68" bow unless it was a very large blind. I use brush blinds and a stool and have never had any issue that would have been solved by less bow length. I will say this, the first few times you hold a "bow as tall as the shooter is" it will feel quite long. Over time it tends to shrink and the shorter bows feel like playthings. Different strokes for different folks and everyone has their preferences, but remember, if you ask a bunch of bowyers who build short bows which is better your going to hear why 1,000+ years of archery knowledge is suddenly wrong.
-
I'll let you know...Kempf longbow is 58" and being a ground hunter it fits my needs perfectly, like my 56" and 60" recurves.
This fall I'll also be using my 64" Kititinney longbow from my natural blinds and off the Torges seat. When the weather breaks here and I can get out roving I'll get the necessary practice in from kneeling and sitting.
I don't anticipate any problems as the bow will be canted anyway.
-
I'm 5'8" as well.....and I have had problems with longer bows. I also can't my bow and although I'm aware of my bottom limb I've made 2 bad shots on deer because I hit my leg one time with the limb of a 60" recurve and just this season hit my limb tip on the tree I was hunting from. In the heat of the moment it's easy to loose track of where your bottom limb is in relation to the tree, stand or your leg, especially if the deer is moving around alot like a rutting buck chasing a doe. I have a 29" drawlength and look for bows 58" and shorter that draw smoothly at my draw. I've got a 56" Elkheart coming soon ! :thumbsup:
-
I'm 5'6" with a "target form 26" draw". I prefer 58" bows. I'm currently having a lot of fun with a 56".
As has been said above, tree stands are no issue with me. Whether 56" or 62" I adjust my stand to accommodate. But, the ground blind is different. I had to get an extra one to shoot my longer recurves (60"ers) without having to cant.
I'm shooting a pass-around bow that is 62" right now. It is a great bow but I wonder if I'd get more out of it if it were 58".
I don't know if this would be the case or not. I have a few bows with multiple sets of limbs and lengths but none that are the same draw weight and different lengths to compare. Design differences would throw any comparison based upon bow length (limb length in these cases)
I'm drawn only to recurves.
-
I'm 5'2" with my boots on and I like shooting bows at least my height, or say about my height when strung.
They just seem really nice and forgiving, I like the super smooth draw, and I don't care much about the FPS or peak efficiency.
Maybe my favorite bow to shoot was a 64" longbow, or a 66" longbow.
I tend to use shorter bows for hunting cause of needing to fit in a blind (fall asleep too much to climb tres)
-
I'm 5'8 and built like a fire hydrant. It seems that I can't shoot anything longer than a 56" bow because of the string angle. The string ends up sitting on my chest and while it is ok when I'm in a t shirt, a coat is dang near impossible.
-
I'm also 5'8" and the shortest bow I hunt with is 68" ntn. I hunt exclusively from the ground, usually from a torges style seat set up inches from the ground. I cant the bow only slightly. The trick is to maintain your regular form from the waist up and then bend at the waist.
-
I'm also 5'8" and built like a fire hydrant. I have a 26" draw and although I have shot Hill style bows 66" long I much prefer 68". The small loss of speed if there is any means nothing to me compared to the smooth and stable shooting of a 68" bow. I regularly cant my bow. Where I hunt sometimes an extreme cant will be the only way to pull a shot off because of thick cover. Never had a problem with an extra inch on each end of the bow.
-
5'9" here, draw is 26 1\\2", I shoot them all, long, short, fat, thin, it don't matter, unless you do ! , meaning, like previously stated, don't over think it.
-
I'm 5'10" and I'm all in for the shorter bows from tree stand or ground blinds... Lower limb &/or string seem to get in the way for me. I have shorter arms, fairly large chest, and draw 27-1/2"... My go to bow is a 54" Black Widow KB and it has resolved all issues of mobility. My other bow is a 60" Black Widow HS60. It shoots awesome but I'm not as nimble in tighter quarters or short/steep tree stand shots. And to those that say don't think about it, that's great advice IF you're not hitting your string or limbs. It will affect your shot if you have contact. Either alter your form or find a bow that removes any doubt. For me it was a 54" KB, no more thinking about it.
-
Well, I am not certain that height even matters a lot in this conversation. A 68" bow is a 68" bow. It works or it doesn't. A lot of us routinely use long bows of 66" and more, even in a tree or from the brush.
I suggest that before you go hunting, you practice from a stand to see how you need to stand to shoot whatever bow you have, and then to be realistic.
You are shooting a bow, it takes room, you will not be able to shoot 360 degrees around you, even if you prune the entire top off the tree.
Pick a bow that you like, shoot it a lot, then shoot it even more from within the brush, so you get a feel for clearances.
Shoot it at an extreme down angle, as if a deer is beneath the tree stand you are hunting from. ( I might suggest you turn your body enough such that the lower limb, when bent at the waist and aiming down, is behind your knees.
ChuckC
-
I am 5'5" and pull 27 inches of draw. I find more differences between different bow styles than I do with bow lengths. That said, I have settled in on 58" as the best all around bow length for me with there being no science in it. I do like my 52" Cascade for hunting turkeys out of a blind though.
-
String angles, a standard Hill design needs to be a lot longer than a recurve or a static recurve to have the same string angle. A longer longbow will not always be slower for a less than 28" draw than a shorter one, there are variables that can change all of that. If one is good at canting the bow, it is possible to easily use a longer longbow in tighter situations. For those that do not vary their cant, there is a definite clearance issue to always be considered. Luckily there are many options to choose for bows. I tried sitting in a blind, cannot do it. I like to see the sky, I also like to take late morning or early afternoon naps in the woods with my feet up on something. I can shoot a Hill style or a mild r/d from my butt as easy a shorter recurve and still expect to hit. I am always amazed how often I need to use that shot.
-
I'm a big fan of natural ground blinds....usually I find myself sitting on a bucket or a short chair under a cedar tree or in some scrub oaks or tall weeds. Couple years ago I had a nice fat doe at THREE YARDS....she was the last in a group of 5 that walked by me unsuspecting and as I let her pass for the shot I raised my bow and moved to draw and aim and my lower limb tip brushed ever so softly through some tall grass....she heard the noise and bounded away. Successful bowhunt in my opinion to be that close but I sure would have liked some tenderloins for dinner that night. That was with a 1966 Bear Kodiak Mag only 52 inches long. I can't imagine having come so close to getting that shot with a 64 inch bow.....hence my question and comments.
Remember also if you can't tell, I'm a recent convert from a wheelie bow...I'm used to a bow that's only 33 inches long axle to axle.....
-
I keep thinking about getting a Martin Savannah, but a 62" bow and a 25" draw just doesn't seem like the most efficiant set up. Or is that just in my head?
Steve
-
I think I'm the one that inadvertently caused this thread. The biggest question in my mind is how a guy 5'8" can only have a 25-26" draw. I'm taking in account for bow design and short arms but are you guys using your back muscles? Once I learned to engage them, I had to lengthen my arrows and retune almost every one of my bows. Gotta get that elbow back.....if you can't, too much weight.
-
Originally posted by kbetts:
I think I'm the one that inadvertently caused this thread. The biggest question in my mind is how a guy 5'8" can only have a 25-26" draw. I'm taking in account for bow design and short arms but are you guys using your back muscles? Once I learned to engage them, I had to lengthen my arrows and retune almost every one of my bows. Gotta get that elbow back.....if you can't, too much weight.
Agreed !!
-
I need to get someone to watch me shoot then.
Question fie those who think I might be short drawing. Where is your anchor....as in where on your head do your fingers touch at full draw?
-
archer66, I am 5'8" tall I anchor about one inch under my eye with my index finger in my cheeck bone. My draw length is 27"
-
Corner of my mouth
-
Originally posted by archer66:
Originally posted by Kirkll:
I guess the question that needs to be asked is why shoot a longer bow with a 25" draw length? There would be no advantage that i could see at all... actually... i see more disadvantages in your case.
Can you tell me more about that? I notice on many bowyers sites that a buyer should choose bow length based on draw length. I assume this is because a short draw length on a long bow doesn't take much advantage of the limbs ability to do work meaning loss of efficiency because only the distal ends of the limbs are used rather than the "meat" of the limb nearer the riser????? Something like that? [/b]
Well first of all bro... All bows are not created equally and can't really be categorized as Long bows and short bows, and comparing performance.
I can build a 60" bow that draws smooth as silk to 32" without any finger pinch or stacking at all, and build another one that is identical in length and looks that stacks up tight at 28" just by shifting the wedges and shortening the working limb.... There are a lot of advantages in hunting conditions where a shorter bow is a lot more desirable.
Guys that love the nostalgia of the American long bows can not get the shorter lengths to draw smooth at longer draw lengths without stacking up and getting finger pinch....
Some of the guys that love their 68" american long bows even though they only draw 25-26" can still get pretty decent performance, and a smooth draw if they are drawing 55-60 pounds at their 25-26"draw length. This is because the bow has good tension on the string at brace. The bow would be close to 61- 66# @ 28" and those D shaped bow design always do better at higher draw weights.
You pretty much have the right idea.... There is a lot of difference in limb designs. Here is a 60" hybrid long bow that is very versatile from very short draws to very long draws.... look at the amount of limb travel and the string angle closely.
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Drawings/SasLblimbmovement.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Drawings/SasLblimbmovement.jpg.html)
-
One more thought here on advantages of a long D shape bow..... These bows are famous for a real smooth draw if you match you bow length to your draw length. But they are not known for real high performance unless you are drawing heavier draw weights....
In many ways this DOES make them more forgiving because the difference in your arrow speed doesn't change as much from 26-28" draw lengths. So you could easily short draw or long draw your bow with very little effect on your arrow trajectory.
The higher performance bow you have, the more difference you will see in slightly changing your draw length from shot to shot..... But they shoot a lot flatter trajectory.... Its a trade off.