Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: bear bowman on April 15, 2015, 11:10:00 AM
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I'm relatively new to trad again. I, throughout my life, have jumped back and forth on many occasions. I recently decided to go completely trad and not look back.
I'm loving it. I'm shooting better than I ever have in the past. That being said, should I expect tack driving accuracy? Obviously, I'm always going to strive to be better but I think my expectations are extremely high of myself.
So, do you guys expect tack driving accuracy? In the end, the reason I shoot other than for the enjoyment, is to put meat in the freezer.
This is something I've been thinking about for awhile now and was hoping to get some opinions.
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Depends of course how accurate you were/are with a compound.
No way for me. I like to be on a pie-plate regularly at 30 so I can be less than half that at the distances I will shoot when hunting. The compound with the release aid, sights, and "wall" as a draw reference are tremendous aids.
I don't even practice at 60 yards like I did with my compounds.
I sometimes have a compound around (not at the moment) just to once in while recall what it is like to "drive tacks" as you describe.
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I've been doing this a lot my self especially recently since I'm getting more interested and active in competition. It's funny how things change, a bad shot now I considered good a year ago. I want to be a tack driver but if having a bad day I try and cheer my self up and say it'd be a good shot on game and I'm a hunter first and target shooter second. So try and not beat your self up to bad
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Dont expect tack driving accuracy, earn it. With the right mindset, and work ethic it is possible to be extremely proficient! Now, will i have 6 arras in a 1" group at 50? Heck no, i don't need it, i can get them to the range i can put 6 arras in a 1" group. Trad just isn't equipment, its a mindset. This effort is whats appealing, i love a good mountain to conquer.
:campfire:
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When hunting with a compound years ago I had asked the same questions you are right now. I have learned not to compare my compound accuracy with my accuracy using a traditional bow Because they are two different worlds.
I made the switch 15 years ago and I never regreted any of it. Just remember one thing. A lethal hit on an animal is lethal if it's the size of a quarter or size of a pie plate .( depending upon of coarse what animal you're trying to harvest :-)
Welcome back to traditional archery, relax, and have fun watching arrow fly
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It is much harder to be tack driving accurate with traditional gear and I think that is why most of us never reach that level. The time and effort commitment is too much for the average Joe. But there are many traditional archers (many on this site) that have become very accurate even out to 40-50+ yds. It takes "a lot" of practice commitment and refining of technique/form to make it happen.
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I personally left the compound world. Because the tack driving accuracy became redundant. I came to trad for the challenge of striving to be my best. And it is very difficult. But that's what keeps me coming back for more. I just can't hang up a bow in October. And say. A www I'll pick it up in September when the season starts. And I'll be just as good as when I put it away.
Practice the form enjoy the simplicity and
Like frassettor said... "Have fun watching the arrow fly"
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The trad bow is capable of tack driving accuracy. The question is, are you? :D
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I got bored of my compound. I could not shoot it for months, pick it up, and shoot "tack driving accuracy"...The only time I enjoyed it was shooting 80-100 yard shots haha. I think in general traditional archery requires one to strive in not only accuracy but hunting. It makes you a better hunter. I was asked during deer season by a co-worker who is a compound hunter and knows I strictly hunt with a longbow... "well you're going to be pissed when that booner is standing at 40 yards and you wont be able to shoot." to which i said, "then I'm not set up in the right spot." It is fun to shoot far with a trad bow, but in hunting scenarios...you dont have to take those far shots if you are setting up in the right spot! So far I havent had to shoot more than 20 yards.
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Hey Bob,
I'm in Southern Chester County, so keep that in mind if you're close by or every down my way. I love to talk shop.
I believe there are folks out there that can walk up to a 20 or 30 yard target and shoot 3 inch groups all day with a traditional bow. That kind of accuracy with a compound or a traditional styled bow only comes with practice and consistency in every aspect of their shot. My hat is off to those folks and I could sit all day and watch them at work.
Other shooters may not have the same patience for that type of shooting and are more or less wanders. They enjoy the roving aspect of archery and are more often than not found shooting at various distances from different positions. These folks wander aimlessly with judo in hand. Their arrow grouping may not be video worthy but their shooting prowess is still something to behold....they get the job done very consistently.
I think you as an archer must decide which direction you'd like to go in. I've always been a wanderer hunting stumps, groundhogs, starlings, pigeons, etc. Shooting dots all day for groups just never really interested me.
Last year I spent all summer shooting targets, basing my success on a tight group of beat up feathers. My shoulders ached, my fingers hurt and my groups improved considerably. I was a step by step machine. I also was miserable. An off day sent me into fits and my joints hurt. I just wasn't having any fun. I also noticed my groundhog hunting took a backseat. When I did go my success was limited, just because the critters didn't leave me much time to go through my shot process.
This year I've changed things around. I shoot for form one night at 10, 20, 30 and 40 yards. Concentrating on the shot process. I don't shoot many arrows and concentrate on quality.
The next night I shoot a judo point at a ball in the yard. I'm not concerned with yardage, just a smooth rhythmic shot process at the center of the ball.
I found that mixing it up keeps my form tight and my hunting eye sharp. Bottom line is I look forward to both types of practice. As you progress in traditional archery I think you'll give both roads a try. Keep it simple and keep it fun! :thumbsup: Success will follow.
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This is something I struggle with as well, I was an indoor competitor into with compound for years 300's with 56,57,58 x's was a day to day occurrence. I got burned out and stopped enjoying my self and gave it up for simpler may I say funner traditional archery.
I still struggle when I'm having a bad day or for that matter a good day with what accuracy means to me or should mean to me. It's hard to beat out that "no mistakes" attitude, hopefully one day I'll stop thinking about X's and just focuse on love of the sport.
I try to tell myself that those are "great hunting shots", "that's a dead animal" and "boy if we could shoot these bows as good as compound guys we would all be in the same divisions in competition" just my 2cents.
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The bow is capable of pinpoint accuracy. You probably aren't.
Face it, using a machine with 80% let off (means typically holding ~15 pounds), using a drop away rest, past center shot, string loop / release, front sight, rear (peep) sight and maybe even a stabilizer, PLUS using a rangefinder so you know the near exact distance, most folks STILL can't get pinpoint accuracy.
It is all about us.
If you are shooting fingers, especially instinctive, most can't possibly compete with the above, but that does NOT mean you should accept poor shooting. You can shoot very well instinctively, of course, some better than others, as in all things.
You want meat. . . get close. Learn how to hunt to get close, then take gimme shots, and you will have your meat.
Maybe not pinpoint, but certainly kill zone accuracy is not just possible, but probable . . IF you want it.
ChuckC
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I am not so sure about the claims of 1" groups I hear from CP shooters. When I watched them at the local outdoor targets, I did not see that at all. I hear about deer that are hit and lost every year from these best shots in the area. Most of the time the hit is high and left for some reason and no penetration is the other one for lost deer. It seems like the same things go wrong for with the modern set ups for more than just one or two guys when hunting. What you can do with trad bows and shooting styles is to have much better game shot timing and shot versatility. Being able to shoot 1" groups on an indoor range will mean very little if the shot at game requires timing and a shooting position that the long draw, slow tempo, straight up and down compound target form will not allow.
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thanks for the comments guys. I too had become bored with the compound. I regularly practice out to 40 yards with mixed results. Out to about 35, I'm relatively proficient. 25 and in, I'm shooting really well. 40, the wheels fall off so to speak. I'm still working on getting my form to where it needs to be.
I'll get there, I just know it's going to be quite awhile yet.
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I shoot at quarters to hit plates. With the compound I could hit an arrow hole. Like the man said its different. I can kill almost as many animals with the stick bow and have a lot more fun because I can shoot stumps and mushrooms and sticks ect without destroying every arrow. Hand , Eye coordination comes into play a lot more that it does with compound . The entire process is more personal and less mechanical.
God bless, Steve
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Think about it for a second. Every accoutrement or accessory on a compound is for the purpose of maintaining consistency and, as a result, accuracy. Sights, peeps, string loops, releases, stabilizers, fall away rests, let-off, etc. Start removing those things and accuracy suffers to some degree. The largest benefit comes with sights. I'd bet that if you take the sights off your compound, your accuracy will dramatically decline. Conversely, adding sights to your trad bow, with dramatically increase accuracy.
If you are a hunter, though, accuracy is only one part of the equation. The vast majority of clean kills with traditional gear happens well within 20 yards, probably closer to 15. There is a reason for that, and it's not because of a lack of accuracy at longer ranges.
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Nope, The whole reason why the compound is a success it that it makes accuracy that much easier for the average person to achieve.
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I doubt that anybody can reasonably expect to shoot trad as accurately as a compound, nor do I think it is important. We should all strive to shoot the best we can, but, if we are shooting softball size groups at our hunting range, we are in good shape. Some of the more successful trad hunters I know are more exceptional woodsman than pure archers. They work hard to develop the skills to get close shots at non alert animals.
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Truth be told, all the deer I've killed with a compound except one, have all been under 25 yards with a majority of them under 20. The longest ever was 27.
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Been reading through this thread and a conclution is pretty clear. If it is accuracy you're after, the wheels are the way to go. But trad is something more than just driving tacks, it's a way of life... a life philosophy if you will. If it is pin point accuracy you're after, buy a gun. If you want to be a bow hunter, get a real bow without all those modern gadgets. A bow is a bent piece of wood with a string attached, not a machine with wheels, cables, sights and what not.
IMHO.
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how good do you think you are with the trad bow? if you think you can drive tacks do it if ya can't oh well sh.t happens but only the depth varies :biglaugh:
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For me personally, I did not get into trad archery to she how accurate I could get with a bow.... I got into trad archery for the challenge of seeing how good of a hunter I could become. at 14 yards my tags usually are punched.
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If I wanted to have pinpoint accuracy I'd be shooting my .270 Winchester but I hunt with a traditional bow without sights and live with its and my limitations. But that's the game we play.
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Honestly, What differance does it make???
If you can put your arrows in a 6" group, at ANY UNKNOWN range, out to 30 yards... OR???
You can stack your arrows in a 1" group, BUT... That group is about 6" low or high, because you "miss-estimated the range" "used the wrong pin" "dropped your bow arm" "awkward shooting position" "release scwed up" the list goes on!!!!!
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I cannot shoot as accurately as often as when I last shot a wheeled bow in 1989...but I dont try to either.
I have practiced to hit a shiny staple in cardboard at 20 yards....I rarely hit it but frequently I would come within 1 inch of it. As my eyes deteriorate in old age..or aging years....makes it harder to focus intently on small spots...but can still come pretty close to an arrow hole or mark on a target or a quarter out to 15-18 yds on good days...on bad days I need to be 10-12 yards.
A big part of traditional archery is that it is personal and if you are not FEELING IT at 20 or 30 yards...there is nobody that will tell you to NOT stalk in closer to the animal until you are comfortable. That is all part of it...if I could get a dollar for every deer or bear or hog I have had within 5 yards I could pay for a hunt out west. The challenge is within yourself....how close CAN you get rather than how far can you shoot.....how selective can you be on animals rather than shooting everything that walks....how quickly does the animal die rather than as long as you find it is a good day. As some said...for those of us that focus more on hunting than target prowess...accuracy is still important and needed it is just my benchmark of that range is reduced. If I took EVERY shot I thought I MIGHT make...I would be regular PBS by now...but I wont take the shot if I have any second guessing. It is just me...
like I said...practice in close...work your way out slowly. I try to be able to put 10 arrows in a row in the same 6 inch circle or better. If I do it at 10 yards then I go to 12...if at 12 then move to 15...if 15 then move to 18...and so on. If I miss...then I go back to 10 and start over but only doing 3 shots per location. If I make bad shot I go back to 10 yards and drill one in the bullseye and then stop so I end on a good note.
not how everyone does it...but that is how I do it. I have contemplated doing like Jimmy Blackmon and relearning using his style of shooting down the pipe...knowing your max and min POINT ON distances with arrow flight never deviating more than 4-6 inches...and as long as you know that you can shoot about anything and not worry about it at all. More accurate and has done him very well.
Just pick one style and give a sincere try...after a bit if not feeling it..then try another but give your body and mind time to adjust and learn it before giving up.
Keep it fun...and good luck.
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No you will not achieve compound accuracy. No worries though. Traditional bows excel at hunting distances, period.
The two bows are worlds apart in function. I also think,the mindsets of the archers behind the bows are different too.
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This whole thread is "are you a hunter or are you a shooter?" Hunters hunt, pretty much. The thrill of the hunt oozes out of them. Shooting is something else. Nothing against it, it's just not the same thing as hunting.
So, why would any shooter bother with a compound when they can pick up a nice .270 with a Leopold scope? Well, maybe because you can't use the .270 during archery season. Okay. ... Seems to me though, if your goal is tack driving accuracy, you'd sooner ditch the compound and pick up the .270. ....
So a person has to think out what it is they really want, then go there. Me? I really love hunting.
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Sometimes I train at 27 yards only. I shoot three arrows on a row. Target is only 4 inch in diameter. I can hit that frequently with two out of three arrows, on a good day all three go in.
I can hit a balloon at 55 yards (50 meter)
But more important is I can hit at different ranges. At the moment I have 5 different targets on my training field. At 11, 22, 33, 44, and 55 yards.
To give you an idea for size, on 44 yards I use a Rinehardt 18-1 target.
I start at the first, when I hit it, I go the the next. Trying to shoot that perfect roundof 5 arrows. Best result till so far, several times, is 6 arrows. But it gives you a thrill hitting all targets on that different distances in a row with your first arra!
Try that with a compound!
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Dewayne Martine won Vegas this year with a recurve and John Demmer recently shot a 299 in indoor competition. Some would call that "tack driving".
I don't see any reason to not expect "tack driving" accuracy on the range.
That should translate to "pretty darned good" under hunting conditions at the distances you would take game.
A stick bow isn't going to shoot like a decked out compound or a rifle but I don't think it should be used as an excuse for poor shooting either.
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I long ago gave up the idea that repeatable tack-driving accuracy mattered to my hunting success. I need accuracy in quantities of one (arrow) and that's enough. Perfection for me is a close shot, good arrow and animal down quickly. When I find them I can put a mental tack under the entrance wound.
:thumbsup:
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Originally posted by mgf:
A stick bow isn't going to shoot like a decked out compound or a rifle but I don't think it should be used as an excuse for poor shooting either.
I don't think anyone here are searching for an excuse for poor shooting. But I believe that if you expect the kind of accuracy you can get out of a compound, it could easily ruin the fun of traditional archery. Shooting a stick bow is a way of life, and is way more than just flinging arrows into a target. IMHO
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I guess I should explain my reasoning for this post. Many of you have answered my question. I can hold nice groups out to about 25 yards. Past that, not so well. Most of that is form related. Some of you have stated that trying to drive tacks takes the fun out of it which is kind of why the question was posed. I love shooting my bow but at times I put way too much pressure on myself and the fun isn't there as much. I can't wait until I get to carry my stick into the woods this fall. I'm already dreaming of it.
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bear bowman:
The best way to beat that pressure is to go afield with nothing but blunts and judos. Stump shoot...rove...shoot at whatever strikes your fancy. Don't think about accuracy; think about making it fun.
I recall a 3D round many years ago...a round robin tourney final. I watched a guy blow an easy 25 yard shot at the last target. I thought his head would explode. On the way to the clubhouse I watched him slam-dunk his TSS Quadraflex into a rusty 55 gallon trash barrel and walk away. I think that's about when it sunk in for me: this stuff is supposed to be fun...not stress...not based on what I can't do.
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X2 on what Kevin says!
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Of the compound shooters that I normally see, the average is they have been hunting for about three years, so they think they know everything there is to know, because they saw it on TV. Some can shoot tight groups at the indoor range, most do not ever shoot an arrow from a tree stand. They set their pins at twenty yards and set their tree stands either right on the deer trails or the nearest possible tree, so what does the bow sight do? I was told by one that they do that so some else does not put one up between them and the best spot. Almost every year, I hear about someone not being able see his pins through his peep, so he takes a guess without it and hits high and wide.
I tried compound for one year back in the early 70s, I could shoot hunting arrow groups as accurately as I could with BW and Hoyt FITA bows. I found that target groups and a single good shot on a live deer are not the same thing. I am better with a stickbow. It seems that judging all things hunting by target groups is getting to be more common. Try only counting the first two arrows. The real advantage of the traditional bow, for me a longbow, is shot versatility and shot timing. That takes practice, like anything else, but it is an area of shooting that can be improved on for many. As a predominately ground hunter, that is what makes or breaks a successful hunting shot for me.
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Kevin, that guy should have thrown himself in the 55 gal trash can and laid his bow gently on the ground. It was he that screwed up, not the bow. As a tool the bow does what it is told to do.
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With a solid repeatable form and a robust aiming system like gapping or stringwalking, accuracy potential is near the average compound shooter.
The things that John Demmer and DeWayne Martin are doing with barebow competitive archery scores are ridiculous. John recently posted a 582 score for an indoor 600 round.
Most if not all compound shooters at my bow hunting club only would dream about that type of score with their hunting compounds.
2" groups at 35 yards are definitely achievable. Mark Lynde, John Demmer, Dewayne Martin are proof from what they consistently do on the IBO circuit.
Discipline, practice, and a full understanding of how to micro-tune your rig are things that shouldn't be overlooked.
Some shooters come to trad to get away from that stuff for a more simplified approach to this sport we all love. I never shot a compound, and my passion lies within how far can I push the accuracy factor with a recurve.
Whatever path you walk, have fun and don't forget, we are not making a living by shooting our bows. So it shouldn't be stressful, unless of course you're shooting at the IBO world championship or national indoor championship ;)
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The bow be it compound or stick is only as accurate as the shooter, it's as simple as that. I have been to a lot of 3d shoots and seen the ones who in their words if they are not winning they are not having fun. 2d place is nothing it don't count.
Some days you got it some days you don't. For me it's about having fun with friends and family. What more could I ask for.
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Can you expect the same accuracy? Yes. Can you achieve the same accuracy? No.
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You can be accurate enough, but no, it makes no sense to believe you can shoot a bare bow recurve or longbow as accurately as a front sighted, rear sighted, trigger released wheel gun.
If you can't be ok with that, well you know.
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It's a choice, do you want to be an Archer or a Mechanical Bow Operator.
I have found that the tradeoffs are well worth the reduction in accuracy. The time it takes to get your first shot off, the amount of equipment you have to carry and the ability (though seldom the opportunity) to have a second shot on the same target.
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Thanks guys. I'm in this for the long haul. I love shooting my longbow. It's been fun so far and I'm sure as I get better it's only going to be more fun.
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A fun judo point game to play with your compound shooting friend. Find a safe open fresh alfalfa or grass field, spot your buddy 2 bucks to 1 dollar, and shoot at a bounced tennis ball. Only in the air or first bounce shots count. I have two former cp buddies that now shoot longbows.
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Trying to drive tacks takes the fun out of shooting? I couldn't disagree more. Trying to hit a roofing nail stuck in my target at 15 yards is a lot of fun. So is trying to shoot through a shotgun hull. I like to play "Impossible Shots". The only problem is, I can't anyone to throw asprin up in the air for me...
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I got a kid that was giving me hard time to toss quarters for me, he hid behind an angled 4x8 sheet of apple plywood. He at first agreed, then I backed up, but he agreed again when I suggested the sheet of plywood. I hit a few a row. At that time my target was 6' x 4' and I had to hit them when arched passed my target. Plastic peanut can lids are also good on the lob across a target. Problem is, that it is difficult to find good tossers that can toss coins and plastic lids where the arrow is going go.
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I had to stop and think about your question awhile since I had a similar question when I started back with traditional gear 5 years ago. I will keep it simple. Expect to shoot compound accuracy, practice to get there but most importantly don't be disappointed if you never make it. The journey is a bunch of fun and if hunting is your objective you can still be successful with less than perfect paper groups.
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Should you expect tack-driving accuracy? No. Others have already pointed out why. Luckily, you don't need to have tack-driving accuracy to put meat in the freezer. You just need to be a good hunter.
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The reduction in accuracy isn't from the stickbow. It's from the equipment that's on the compound and not the stickbow. If you fit both bows out the same and use the same type release(fingers or release) the stickbow will shoot right up there with the compounds. Or shoot em both barebow the stickbow will keep up just fine. I like to keep it simple but even then a stickbow will stack em in there.
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I know crossbows are taboo here but I'm going to use them as an example, recurve limb crossbows shoot just as accurately as the ones with wheels, so the wheels alone don't make the advantage. Why are crossbows hands down the easiest way to shoot an arrow accurately? Because they further minimize the weak link in the shooting process, compounds also minimize that weak link to a lesser degree, my beloved trad bows unfortunately highlight that weak link, which you all know happens to be me. My bows are as accurate as anything made, unfortunately they are stuck with me lol.
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Originally posted by pavan:
Problem is, it is difficult to find good tossers that can toss coins and plastic lids where the arrow is going go.
Now, that's funny!