Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: kshunter55 on July 31, 2015, 02:33:00 AM
-
"The Shot"...... What is it, Who can make it, and what are its limits? Ive been lucky enough to experience the closest encounters a whitetail deer has to offer. My concern is when the animal is "Too Far"????? When do you know they are?????
I'd love to be able to tell you a step by step procedure that works for everyone to take a shot at an animal. The fact is, it's an ingrained sense learned over time and is different for everyone. Kinda like breathing, eating, and sleeping. We all do it, but we all do it a little different.
I get a little tired of hearing how restricted we are as traditional bowhunters. I've heard alot of "If I had a compound I would have got him, or If I had my gun he was mine." Obviously there are weapons that promote longer shots. So what are "our" limits? 15 yards? 20 yards? 25 yards??????
The last three numbers seem to be a majority response among us stick shooters. I just can't get myself to believe that is the best we can do. I understand the physics of 170fps vs. 300fps, but I believe more in the man behind the bow than the mathematics.
Some of the best trad bowhunters I know, tell me they have passed animals at 25 yards, but have shot and killed animals at 50. What does this tell us? Not every situation is the same. Its a learned skill, just like stalking, stand placement, and the thousand others we try and perfect.
Don't sell yourself short. You never know what opportunities may be headed your way. Start practicing outside your box and strive to get better! There are a million things we can talk about on this topic. Animal behavior, species, and shooters confidence are probably the most important.
As the thread goes on I'd like us to find an answer to "The Shot" As in reference to shooting animals. Not targets. I laugh imagining a wolf reading this thread and telling me. "Hey Andy just kill them and eat them. It's worked for me for thousands of years".
-
I shot animals close and far and have passed on animals close and far. I honestly don't have a set distance and would never pass judgement on a guy taking long shots.
-
I might catch slack for saying this but I have never understood why a lot of trad guys limit themselfs to 20 yrds or there about. The way I see it is the bow is capeable of sending an arrow 250-300 yrds with enough energy to be deadly so 50 is nothing even a 100 is doable the only limitation is your vision and skill.
-
This is a topic that's different for everyone. There are way to many variables for a straight answer. I think for most traditionalist, the whole idea is to see how close they can get to the animal. We don't practice long range shots as much as the close ones, because being close is kinda the whole idea. It is for me anyway.
-
For me switching from a compound bow to a recurve is been to test my hunter's ability to get close to the animals. When I started killing animal as far as 80 yards I realized that that wasn't the reason why I felt in love with bowhunting and the weapon wasn't a primitive weapon that concentrate more in your ability as a hunter but more a shooter. So for this reason I really prefere to take my shoots under 20 yards,also if in some cases I can shoot farther than 30. But the longer the shoot the less value it has on my judgement because I feel less the prey and care more to the shooting form.
-
I practice and have taught my sons to be hunters not shooters no matter what weapon we have in our hands. :archer2:
Tracy
-
If you have the slightest doubt you can make a good shot, then it's too far.
-
Originally posted by highlow:
If you have the slightest doubt you can make a good shot, then it's too far.
Yep; I don't care what anyone's limit is - all that matters is they know it and stick to it.
-
I just go with my gut.
-
highlow is right. If you have doubts, then it is too far. I used to set out markers at 25 yards, and would not consider a shot beyond that distance. Yes, it was somewhat arbitrary, but it made me consciously consider distance in relation to my shooting abilities. Each hunter has to set his own limits.
-
Originally posted by highlow:
If you have the slightest doubt you can make a good shot, then it's too far.
Yep!
-
When I was 25 my yardage was longer. As I age it has lessened. I don't take any shot I don't feel 100% sure of making. I passed on a trophy whitetail at 32 yards and pigs in the road at 25-30 yards yards. I sleep well during hunting season.
-
If I start thinking distance, I don't shoot. I "know" when I can make the shot. I hunt with a bow to get close. If I wanted to shoot more than 20 yards or so, I'd hunt with a gun. I pass on deer every year because I am not comfortable with the shot-distance, cover, age, angle, alertness, gut feeling, etc.
-
Not every situation is the same. The man, the bow and the animal are all variables that change by the second. For me, I follow my instincts but do prefer slam dunk 5 yard shots of which Ive taken with less than desired results at times.
Ive also taken 25+ yard shots and hit the exact spot I was hoping to with ideal results.
-
True story. Me and my dad was walking along logging road during archery walking into our spot. Public land. And a rabbit was sitting on the path in the grass, we walked right up on it before I realized what it was. Literally less than 5 yards away. I pulled an arrow, came to full draw and stuck the arrow right beside the rabbit. I just looked At my dad who was like really, really..... I was so pissed I said screw it.. I'm not shooting again.. Walked right up to the rabbit pulled my arrow from the ground.
That dang rabbit never moved. I figured it was frozen in fear of what ever. Kinda dumbfounded we walked along maybe 20 more yards looked to the left. Right on the path a guy was in his treestand. I know he seen the whole thing.
talk about embarrassing.... So for me, I have no effective range now lol.
-
Red, that is why many of us strive to keep it close. Things go wrong. The farther away, the more things can go wrong.
The arrow with a sharp broadhead can fatally pierce a deer at nearly any distance along its path, be it 5 yards or 500 ( if you can get it to go that far). It is hitting where you want that gets tough.
I personally feel we owe it to the newbies who may not yet have great skills to keep the talk realistic. Yeah, if you are good enough to shoot at 75 yards, well, that is your call.
Most are not. Newbies read our stuff, every word, and want to emulate. When I speak of killing at 75 yards, they want to do the same and wonder why it isn't working.
I don't owe the critters anything, but I feel that I want to do it as right as I can. A good kill, or no shot at all.
ChuckC
-
IMO it is our "comfort zone" that should dictate what we shoot when hunting. Mine has been 30-35 yards since forever. I would prefer closer but real close, no. My 5-10 yard shooting is terrible, always has been. Again my "comfort zone" brings out my best in form, concentration, and follow through. If it was 20 yards so be it. In that moment of truth you should be as confident as you can be without thinking about it. Yes getting close is important but again close in your zone.
-
I have made great shots on game up to about 25 yards, and have passed on 15 yard shots because I doubted my ability to make a good shot. I guess for me it is more about my confidence when the time comes.
-
I have shot a number of deer on the move that were beyond twenty yards that did not know I was there. I have let more wired alert deer go that were fifteen yards or less than I can remember. Being a ground hunter, the close deer that have me spotted are the ones that make me doubt my shot, I usually do not shoot those.
-
As an ethical hunter I've never killed a Deer more than 30 yrd's,with compound or traditional,here in the midwest hunting in the environment I hunt in I don't think my arrow would go further without hitting a branch or something,if I had to kill to survive it's a whole different story.
-
To me one of the best ways to find out your effective range is to shoot in unknown distance 3-D tournaments. You are under some pressure so you give it your best effort. From what I experienced and witnessed,there are not too many people who can shoot in the kill zone consistantly over twenty yards give or take a yard or two. For one thing in the woods or desert you can judge it to be twenty yards and in fact the shot was 24 and that could be the difference of a humain kill or a wounded animal. On one course I shoot at in the desert with very uneven terrain as well as shooting over washes and boulders, very few can judge the distance within a yard and most are off as much as 5 yards or more. Even the wheel people with their binoculars and range finders have a time deciding on the distance because one range finder says 28 and the other said 29 and they are aiming for the 12 ring and even a yard difference in distance counts. What I say is the closer the better and when in doubt don't shoot.
-
I think you may have opened up a can of worms brother. My personal test is can I put six arrows sonsitently in a 9 inch circle. 40 yards is my max range but, there are limits. For example at 20 yards I can do that kneeling, sitting, or crouching with the bow canted or vertical. At 40 it has to be standing or kneeling with a perfectly vertical now and plenty of time. Also the colder it gets the more my range shortens. And on and on. Lol but, you get the jist I bet. Hell to anyone else's ethics I do what I feel is right.
-
To me it doesn't matter if it is 150 -250 -or 300+ ft. per second .Game is not a stationary target . Past 20-25 yd there is time for movement . It is the movement of the game that turnes good shot into a bad one .
-
I use the same system I taught myself when I was around 14 years old, back in the 60's. I start at 5 yard increments and move further away as I become at least 90% on a "horizontal magazine". I'd have 5-6 arrows. I'd shoot at 5 yards. If I hit the magazine I moved back 5 yards. Then another shot.
In those days my concentration was much better than today. My max in those days was 33 yards ... the length of my backyard.
One of my favorite hunting targets was a simple bale of hay. I'd pretend it was the torso of a deer and imagined which way it was facing (always facing left it seemed). Then I'd aim for lower and front 3rd of the bale.
These days I'm usually that confident at only 20 and under. If my shoulder gets better I'd like to extend to 30 yards by October 17th. I have an appointment with a KY cow elk.
I don't believe in "luck". I won't try a shot outside my proven effective range unless the animal is wounded. If I can't do it in the yard I don't expect to magically improve in the field. Even the yard shot is fraught with bad possibilities as conditions in the field and with myself can change when the moment arrives.
-
Well ring I used to agree with you but I have actually found that with RELAXED deer they actually move more the closer you get. That has only been my experience however. You (and everyone else) has to hunt A) within the law B) the way they feel is right.
-
If I think I can make the shot, I take it. That hasn't always worked well, even at 10 yards things can happen.
I do know that there is absolutley no way I am shooting past 30 yards at a deer. I'm WAY more comfortable below 20 yards. Honestly, my favorite distance is about 10-12 yards. That range just "feels" good to me for whatever reason.
-
To extend ones range past 20 yards takes lots of practice shooting at longer shots. I like to develop a mid range shot standard of 30 yards in practice. We take our deer targets out and practice out to point on ranges in hunting set up situations. My wife is quite good out to 40 yards out shooting at a foam deer, but 25 yards in the backyard seems long to her prior to that. I do not like to shoot at deer more than 30 yards out, not because I cannot hit them, because they can move. I find that a walking deer is a more predictable target than a tense ready to spring deer. I had one jump the string last year at about 17 yards, I did not think he saw me at all, but he must have caught something that made him whirl around. The arrow went just past him. His undoing was when he trotted around the cover to check out what he thought he had seen.
-
Peer pressure has more to do with what we say about this subject that what actually happens in the field. I suspect that what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas because of political correctness. Each one of us has his own standards and ethic set. I will not put on you what mine is and do not accept what anyone wants to put on me. I take the shot I believe I can make and I accept the consequences of that shot even if I do not like the result. From what I read I suspect many others feel the same way.
God bless, Steve
-
i want my shots as close as I can get them!!
-
Originally posted by RIng:
To me it doesn't matter if it is 150 -250 -or 300+ ft. per second .Game is not a stationary target . Past 20-25 yd there is time for movement . It is the movement of the game that turnes good shot into a bad one .
yep, best response I have read.
-
I only take the shot I "know" I can make. Confidence in your 'true' shooting ability is the biggest part I think in making an 'accurate'(on the spot I am concentrating) shot.'
-
I've gotten to the point that I won't take any shot that doesn't look like a done deal. If I don't get the shot I want, I pass. Tomorrow's another day.
I like to wait for a broadside, or maybe a slightly quartering away shot at a relaxed deer, and I don't generally shoot more than 20 yards. 10-15 is better.
I practice shooting farther, but to me, there's just too much that can happen on a live target, between the time I relax my fingers and the arrow getting there.
I like my turkeys close, 10-15 yards.
The biggest thrill for me is in getting an animal close. Having to make the movements that it takes to make the shot, at a distance where the slightest move at the wrong time would more than likely put the animal into instant flight.
Bob
-
I don't really buy into the time to jump theory. I had a bull elk jump the string when he was completely relaxed at 15 yards. He actually reared up like a horse and I thought I had killed him.
On another instance I had a cow jump at 7 ft. and I hit her through the back of the lungs instead of top of heart.
I would say that I have had less movement from animals that were past 15 yards than under 15 yards. That's out of well over 100 animals. But still that is just my experience and I am sure others differ.
God bless, Steve
-
I'm sorry steve. I was talking more about an animal having a chance to take a step, or turn. Any movement it might make between the time my brain tells my fingers to relax, and when the arrow gets there. I just meant that an animal has more time to make a move at longer ranges, before the arrow gets there. I've made a couple poor hits over the years because of it. JMO.
Bob
-
Most of this is very arbitrary, but I guess the answer to your question, for me, would be that if you aren't confident in making the shot(and that the animal will likely still be in the same spot), then it is too far.
That is going to vary with every situation, depending from how I feel that day, the disposition of the animal, and which animal I am trying to kill. Some animals very rarely will move when the arrow is in the air. I water buffalo is a good example of this. I have heard that elk are much less likely to, as well, although I am not sure if that is assuming a further average shot distance.
I would say that 80% of the arrows that I shoot in practice are from 30 yards away, with maybe 5-10% from 40-50 yards away, and 10-15% closer than 30 yards. As elk season is getting closer, the percentage from 40-50 yards is going up. I plan on being very comfortable shooting from that distance before my trip, and I really don't care what anyone thinks about it, if I have a calm animal between 35-40 yds away, I will most likely be taking the shot if I don't think that I can get a closer one.
-
I thought I read somewhere that one of the old greats (Jack Howard?) wouldn't shoot between 20-40 yards because that was the distance where an animal could both hear the shot and have time to jump the string. At longer distances they don't hear it, at shorter distances they have a hard time reacting fast enough.
I also think this conversation has a lot to do with what's going on in the hunter's head.
How bad does he want the animal? Is he willing to take the riskier shot?
How much time does he have to track it, if his shot is off?? How good of a tracker is he?
How much did the hunt cost? Too much to not take the shot?
Does the hunter value more the getting in close, the accuracy he can implement in the field at longer distances, the successful taking of an animal, etc.?
Is the hunter more concerned with the avoiding of leaving a wounded animal in the field?
Is the hunter on someone's property where he feels more compelled not to take riskier shots?
As another of the old trad greats once said, "If the arrows aren't flyin', nothing' is dyin'."
I'm no expert at this, as I've only taken small game with my trad bows. But I think a lot about these points, since I go season after season without many shot opportunities, though I usually pass several up each year. But I practice at longer distances at home so that if I get a perfect longer-shot opportunity, I don't have to automatically turn it down.
-
I will add, that I have turned down tons of shots at deer that were 25 yards and further away, as well as other animals, and have been busted trying to get closer on deer, hogs, and raccoons more times than I can count. For me, the cost of a hunt, or need to bring home meat doesn't enter into the discussion at all. One thing is for sure, there are no guaranteed shots in this game, no matter the distance. All you can do is put yourself in a postition where you are comfortable with the percentages.