Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Plain Noel on August 12, 2015, 10:16:00 PM
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Hey folks. New member, new archer. Middle-aged fat man who woke up a few months ago with a need to kill a mountain lion with a longbow. No idea where that came from, but I'm pursuing it.
Did a bunch of reading (including this forum) and then bought a Samick SLB in their lightest draw weight (30 pounds) and appropriate arrows and gear. Been shooting 50 arrows a day; slowly getting things figured out.
In another few months I expect to be ready for a hunting weight bow. I figure 50@28 should be about right. I've been looking at every bow I can find - everything from Howard Hill to Black Widow - and still have a lot of deciding to do. But I'm starting to wonder what extra money accomplishes, with longbows. I mean, I'm reasonably happy with the Samick - there's a bit of handshock but not enough to bother me - and have given real thought to just buying another one at 50# draw weight. But I'd also be perfectly happy to spend the $600 - $700 or so that seems to be pretty average for custom bows, or even the $1000+ that folks like Black Widow ask, as long as the money buys something demonstrably better.
Short version: Are expensive bows worth it in any objective way? Or are you paying mostly for name recognition and eyewash? If I buy a Black Widow instead of a Bear Montana, will I be shooting a faster, more accurate, more deadly arrow, or will I just have a really expensive stick to show off at the range?
Thanks in advance for any replies,
Noel
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My first trad bow as an adult was a Samick Sage. I told myself I was going to keep that bow until I was able to out shoot the bow's capabilities. I had it 5 years. Long story short, if you can swing the cost of a high end custom, go for it. If not, you'll be just fine with another Samick.
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The only way you will be able to tell which is the best for you will be to get out there to different trad venues (mostly 3D shoots) and shoot some different bows to decide which one you like! Whatever opinion anybody gives you about how good a particular bow is (or is not) is subjective, and based on the persons own judgements of that particular bow.
Bisch
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Most bowyers have a price range for identical models based on what they put into any one variation in terms of time and materials. That "eye wash" can be pretty expensive in terms of materials for the bowyer.
So, if you want performance alone, purchase a bow made with less expensive and usually domestic woods and less expensive black or brown glass. For the most part it will perform right along with it's exotic brother.
check out Howard Hill Archery http://howardhillarchery.com/ There you will find reasonably priced long bows along with their more dressed up offerings. If you don't mind spending the money, jump in to the more elaborate creations. They are all good bows.
I would start with the sponsor list at the top of the page. You will find there some of the best bowyers in the business.
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If you are after big cats, don't feel you need 50# to get the job done. Cats are fairly soft creatures. 40# will get complete pass through, if you do your part.
I have yet to arrow one myself, but have shared a cougar steak with a few fellows whom have. They are usually in the field with their elk bows, but all relate 'over kill' with that setup.
Shoot well with your setup and don't feel you need to over reach, especially if it causes any doubt over accuracy. Not a good trade when it is not necessary.
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Noel, you'll get good advice on bows which I am not qualified to give.
I do want to point out that if you are in California as your profile indicates, mt. lion sport hunting is an absolute no-no in the state. If you're planning to hunt them out of state you won't be able to bring any part of the animal back home legally.
I don't agree with these particular game laws but we do need to be aware of them and be responsible hunters who do not end up in the newspapers.
Guy
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Good point, Mr. Taylor. I plan on hunting it (and eating it) in Arizona.
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Good to go.
Apologies if I sounded preachy.
Guy
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Not at all. Two months in, I can barely find my backside with a mirror on a stick. Any and all advice is appreciated.
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Remember when you first drank a beer? All beer kinda tasted the same? Over time you began to develop the ability to distinguish and appreciate different beers?
Bows are the same.
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Plain,
If you're in N. Cal near Lake County. Give me a holler via PM and you can come over and shoot a bunch of options to help make up your mind what direction you want to go.
Welcome to the Addiction!
Mike
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Appreciate that. I'm "deep south" in Orange County.
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One thing I'll mention is that 30# to 50# is a BIG jump… I'm thinking it would be a really good idea to at least try shooting something around 40, then maybe 45#'s, first.
Too heavy a bow will be sure fire way to set you back in your shooting.
And as for the original question: a higher price custom bow will not necessarily shoot any better than a production bow. Then there's all the custom made bows sold used, for a major discount compared to new. As you'll hear over and over here, the best bow for YOU will be the one that feels best, and shoots best, for YOU.
Brief story: I'm currently shooting an entry level production bow, circa 1972. Bottom limb is twisted. American company, but I noticed it was made in China. Grip felt a little awkward, so I did some simple modifications to it. I shoot it better than than I did a beautiful, perfect fitting custom which I was forced to sell. Don't get quite the same pleasure from shooting it… but the arrow goes where it's supposed to, and the bow is very, very, quiet.
Find a bow that you like, and be sure you can come to full draw comfortably,
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A bit off the topic, but what does cat-meat taste like?
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Originally posted by Trond:
A bit off the topic, but what does cat-meat taste like?
I hear its like Pork only better.
To the original poster. first of all Welcome. :wavey:
I have shot many bows from old production Bows to high end custom.. I like some of the old production more than some high end custom bows. I have a couple custom bows I love. Its all about fit and feel for you and your preferences. The only way to know for sure what you like is to start shooting other bows.
Perhaps you are near South Cox and Stalker archery? Maybe you could try a few of his models?
I have found many low end(price wise) (500-600) custom bows to be great performers. The largest issue you may have is to get a bow before cat season. Some bowyers have a year or more waiting list. There are a few with only a several week list.
Also, Cat hunts are demanding. You called yourself Fat, so I recommend you can handle running up and down mountains before you splurge on a big hunt. If you cannot keep up, you will have spent a lot of money only to disappoint yourself.
Let us know how your hunt goes and take pictures. Good luck.
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I'm a little surprised that nobody has said/asked it yet, so here goes.
What exactly is it that all of a sudden fuels your urge to kill a mountain lion with a stickbow? Hunting video or TV show? An outfitter's brochure? Boredom? If you haven't yet thought about that aspect, perhaps you should.
I don't mean to sound condescending and my apologies if these doubts are misplaced, but your quest is on the strange side for someone with no prior archery/bowhunting background. And to be honest, it seems to take killing very casually.
I think most here would agree, the killing part of bowhunting only makes sense after the learning and mindset part (know what you're doing, always respect the animal) has been accepted and experienced. Sort of a 'learn it and earn it' mantra. Deciding whether the bow you use should be a cheap import or expensive custom isn't really in the picture yet. I hope you understand what I mean.
Perhaps you can explain a bit more about your circumstances. I'm sure there will be many replies to assist you in finding the right path.
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Originally posted by TSP:
I'm a little surprised that nobody has said/asked it yet, so here goes.
What exactly is it that all of a sudden fuels your urge to kill a mountain lion with a stickbow? Hunting video or TV show? An outfitter's brochure? Boredom? If you haven't yet thought about that aspect, perhaps you should.
I don't mean to sound condescending and my apologies if these doubts are misplaced, but your quest is on the strange side for someone with no prior archery/bowhunting background. And to be honest, it seems to take killing very casually.
I think most here would agree, the killing part of bowhunting only makes sense after the learning and mindset part (know what you're doing, always respect the animal) has been accepted and experienced. Sort of a 'learn it and earn it' mantra. Deciding whether the bow you use should be a cheap import or expensive custom isn't really in the picture yet. I hope you understand what I mean.
Perhaps you can explain a bit more about your circumstances. I'm sure there will be many replies to assist you in finding the right path.
:thumbsup:
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Originally posted by NBK:
Remember when you first drank a beer? All beer kinda tasted the same? Over time you began to develop the ability to distinguish and appreciate different beers?
Bows are the same.
That is an awesome description!
Bisch
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Brief story: I'm currently shooting an entry level production bow, circa 1972. Bottom limb is twisted. American company, but I noticed it was made in China.
Who was exporting bows from China in 1972?
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Originally posted by NBK:
Remember when you first drank a beer? All beer kinda tasted the same? Over time you began to develop the ability to distinguish and appreciate different beers?
Bows are the same.
That's about as good as I've ever heard anyone explain it.
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Originally posted by TSP:
I'm a little surprised that nobody has said/asked it yet, so here goes.
What exactly is it that all of a sudden fuels your urge to kill a mountain lion with a stickbow? Hunting video or TV show? An outfitter's brochure? Boredom? If you haven't yet thought about that aspect, perhaps you should.
I don't mean to sound condescending and my apologies if these doubts are misplaced, but your quest is on the strange side for someone with no prior archery/bowhunting background. And to be honest, it seems to take killing very casually.
I think most here would agree, the killing part of bowhunting only makes sense after the learning and mindset part (know what you're doing, always respect the animal) has been accepted and experienced. Sort of a 'learn it and earn it' mantra. Deciding whether the bow you use should be a cheap import or expensive custom isn't really in the picture yet. I hope you understand what I mean.
Perhaps you can explain a bit more about your circumstances. I'm sure there will be many replies to assist you in finding the right path.
Oh good grief. He just asked a question. He came here for help.
How's the view up there on that high horse? :goldtooth:
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Like I said Tx, killing an animal with a bow isn't an idea/urge that most folks just suddenly wake up with one morning. I'm simply asking why, with no bowhunting experience at all, he wants to shoot a mountain lion with a bow...before getting into a discussion of what kind of bow to do it with. In my mind the question is reasonable and I'd have no problem if anyone asked it of me under the same circumstances.
Relax, there's no lynchmob behind the bush, I'm just very curious about how his idea was borne.
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Maybe the guy woke up one day and had a "Fight Club" moment and decided to turn over a new leaf. Hell of a way to start.
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Originally posted by TSP:
I'm a little surprised that nobody has said/asked it yet, so here goes.
What exactly is it that all of a sudden fuels your urge to kill a mountain lion with a stickbow? Hunting video or TV show? An outfitter's brochure? Boredom? If you haven't yet thought about that aspect, perhaps you should.
I don't mean to sound condescending and my apologies if these doubts are misplaced, but your quest is on the strange side for someone with no prior archery/bowhunting background. And to be honest, it seems to take killing very casually.
I think most here would agree, the killing part of bowhunting only makes sense after the learning and mindset part (know what you're doing, always respect the animal) has been accepted and experienced. Sort of a 'learn it and earn it' mantra. Deciding whether the bow you use should be a cheap import or expensive custom isn't really in the picture yet. I hope you understand what I mean.
Perhaps you can explain a bit more about your circumstances. I'm sure there will be many replies to assist you in finding the right path.
Maybe he has been hunting his whole life? could be he has rifle hunted or used a compound. Maybe since he is planning on hunting in AZ he will be behind hounds and wants to make it a bit more of a challenge.
I woke up one morning and realized that every time I dreamed about bow hunting it was a with a longbow even though I had not shot a long bow since I was 10. so I gave away my compound and started over.
He is just asking for help respect him and give help not criticism, or judgement.
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Originally posted by NBK:
Remember when you first drank a beer? All beer kinda tasted the same? Over time you began to develop the ability to distinguish and appreciate different beers?
Bows are the same.
:clapper: :clapper: :clapper: :clapper:
That is an excellent description...
here's a reasonably priced mountain lion bow for you called the "Big Foot Obsidian".
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Big%20Foot%20Obsidian/LaramysMountainLion3.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Bows%202012/Big%20Foot%20Obsidian/LaramysMountainLion3.jpg.html)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Big%20Foot%20Obsidian/768withbows.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Bows%202012/Big%20Foot%20Obsidian/768withbows.jpg.html)
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Mountain lion is some of the best eating there is. When I got mine a few years ago I invited some Bowhunting buddies and wives over for a cookout. The wives were picking every little scrap out. They loved it. My wife is not big on wild game but even she raved about how good it was.
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I don't take offense to anything written so far.
Running up hills is my actual training program. I'm not in bad shape and get an hour or two of exercise a day. I just eat and drink to much, so I've got 30 pounds of gut to lose.
I'm not likely to be ready for bowhunting this season. Between learning to shoot and getting into shape, I plan on a long road.
Sorry if anyone got offended by my cavalier mention of "killing". I don't appreciate euphemisms like "harvesting" or "taking". Hunters kill animals. It's nothing to be ashamed of and nothing to sugarcoat.
And I've been hunting with handguns for decades. I've just decided that discharging a firearm in the wilderness is profane and I'm not going to do it anymore.
Thank you all for the replies so far.
Noel
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Originally posted by Plain Noel:
Sorry if anyone got offended by my cavalier mention of "killing". I don't appreciate euphemisms like "harvesting" or "taking". Hunters kill animals. It's nothing to be ashamed of and nothing to sugarcoat.
Killing is what we do. I guess if you feed and raise deer like a farmer, it really should be called harvesting :)
There are many good production bows and even bad ones that will easily put an arrow through a mountain lion or deer. The better bows may offer a smoother draw, less handshock, more speed/efficiency, finer craftsmanship, etc. Doesn't really make them any more lethal, just more pleasant to shoot and look at. Just because a bow is expensive doesn't mean you'll get the whole wishlist. You mentioned Black Widow, they don't get touted for their speed, which I found disappointing, but they are a tough, reliable bow.
We all have our favorites and there are a lot of options, don't hope you'll find a consensus or even a top ten list to narrow your search. Shoot as many different bows as you can find locally and you'll start to figure out what you like. Actually, just buy a Centaur or a Schafer Silvertip :readit: that should get suggestions flowing for you
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Hunting mountain lions can be a real adventure and can be done a variety of ways. You may have to save some of that beer money, but if you are planning on doing your lion hunting with hounds and horses, a packable quick assembly bow may be a desired feature. A bow like a Dick Robertson Wolfer would be an excellent choice for such a hunt.
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You probably don't know what you are missing if you shoot nothing but the Samick. Get out and shot some different bows. You can get good customs at 5-600 dollars. the grip will fit-it can be made for your draw length. Most bowyers can get within a couple of lbs. either way on your wanted draw weight. And first and foremost buy American.
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Originally posted by pavan:
Hunting mountain lions can be a real adventure and can be done a variety of ways. You may have to save some of that beer money, but if you are planning on doing your lion hunting with hounds and horses, a packable quick assembly bow may be a desired feature. A bow like a Dick Robertson Wolfer would be an excellent choice for such a hunt.
Excellent point. Riding a horse with a longbow can present problems. I've done it, but it makes things much easier with a takedown bow. Even when you dismount and take off on foot it can be put on your pack for the climb. You'll have plenty of time to assemble it in the field.
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On, and I applaud your wish to hunt with a longbow. If you've hunted with pistols in the past there is obviously something in you that enjoys the additional challenges of making things harder than the law requires. Traditional bowhunting is a natural progression for you and I think you are going to love it. Good luck on your quest!
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Lean pork is my opinion also.
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Short version: Are expensive bows worth it in any objective way? Or are you paying mostly for name recognition and eyewash? If I buy a Black Widow instead of a Bear Montana, will I be shooting a faster, more accurate, more deadly arrow, or will I just have a really expensive stick to show off at the range?
Thanks in advance for any replies,
Noel [/QB][/QUOTE]
Both are right. :)
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I question the " more accurate" portion of that statement.
Faster, sure, maybe, but it is the shooter and the arrows, not the bow, that makes it accurate and deadly.
A piece of stick can launch an accurate, deadly shaft.
ChuckC
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Shot a lot of expensive bows for years. Wanted a back-up for Africa and got a cheap Samick Journey. Found out I shot it better than my Brack or Blacktail. In the end, I hunted with the Samick because my Brack never showed up in Africa. The results were satisfactory. I think the reason is in the grip, for what ever reasons.
Best solution is to shoot a few bows and find out what fits you best like a few others have said.
I will say one thing about a cheap bow: You won't mind beating the thing up out in the woods like you would an expensive bow.
Now, about beer. Well, my taste buds aren't all that great, so I'm able to save money there! How do you think I had the green to get my blacktail?
Good luck on your Quest.
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You definitely can get a production bow that will perform more than adequate for your purposes. There are also some good no-frills bowyers out there that are putting out handcrafted models in the $350-500 price range. I researched for about 6 months and went through the adds in magazines and read reviews on this forum. I was finally torn between a Bear Montana, an Omega, and the Bestfriend Sidekick. The Omega came with a lifetime warranty and a 30-day money back gaurantee so I went with it. I'm sure there are tons of bowyers out there making similar products but I have absolutely no buyers remorse.
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I just bought a 21st Century Edge. The base model cost me $300 + $30 shipping. It is the best shooting bow I've ever owned and flings an arrow faster than several longbows I have that are 15# heavier. For a bow that I'm gonna drag around in the woods it's all I want. Now if what you want is a bow that looks like fine furniture with inlays and fancy grained wood, you"re gonna have to rightly expect to pay for it.
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Shopping around and shooting as many bows as possible is the easiest way to determine what you like and what features are worth the cost. I am partial to long bows from Howard Hill Archery and from Northern Mist. There are many bowyers who make great Hill style bows, if that is what you like. Lots of people enjoy the R/D bows. I have some of them, too. Used bows may be advisable for your first bow (or bows?). You can get top of the line equipment at reduced cost. Careful, though, long bows are addictive. Here, Kitty, kitty, kitty...
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My suggestion is to try to go to a 3d shoot and try some bows out first.
Also the best deals on bows are gently USED bows through the classifieds. Money buys performance sometimes but lots of money buys looks. Since bows are a very personal hunting tool, I personally see value in both. Pick something that's within your budget, that you shoot well, and that you like the looks of and you'll have a great time. Grip geometry is likely to be the single biggest factor for if you can shoot a bow well. After you find a grip that you just fall in love with, most other bows will not seem just right any more.
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Originally posted by Plain Noel:
Running up hills is my actual training program.
Noel
Seeing as you're from California, the above statement sounds as though you are baiting them. HA!!! Last year when we were in CA, I thought about going for a jog and remembered that Cougars love joggers, so I went back to bed instead.
When it comes to picking a Longbow that's right for you, shoot as many different kinds that you can and see which one feels best in your hands.
Once you find the bow that has the perfect grip for you, you WILL know it. Everyone's taste and preferences are different, that is why there are so many manufacturers out there.
Welcome to the site and keep us posted on how you are doing.
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Originally posted by GDPolk:
Grip geometry is likely to be the single biggest factor for if you can shoot a bow well. After you find a grip that you just fall in love with, most other bows will not seem just right any more.
GD and Mike Vines both said a mouthful!
I had that "grip" problem for decades! Tried one custom after another (well, not like some guys here who buy and sell as a hobby), but enough that it broke my wallet and my spirit.
I then finally found someone who took time to want video of me shooting, diagnosed that being self taught, I'd developed a style that had "excessive wrist rotation" and that bowyer altered the grip to fit my style perfectly.
Up till then, I tried to self diagnose and got FAT GRIPS that changed the heel pressure of my grip and made my bow recoil down and to the right toward the 5:00 position...which affected both consistency and accuracy...
Custom can be just choosing fancy woods, or custom can be having a truly custom grip to suit your hand!
As suggested, trying various bows, watching how the bow reacts at release (should move rather directly forward) can help you understand what works with your release and grip or that you have some coaching to learn how to shoot better and more consistently...
Stick bows are simple, but there are things that do affect how they react and respond...
Take your time and enjoy the ride... it ain't an overnight thing... (as the song goes...) :)
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Great thread. Gave me good perspective on the quality of some less expensive recurves like the Samick Sage or Journey. I think this just helped me save some money.
Plain Noel, I like how you've approached traditional archery with slow and thoughtful progress. I'm new as well and this approach seems wise.
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I also look forward to seeing where the adventure takes you next.
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You can purchase a good used custom built bow for about 50-70% of the new retail price. I suggest purchasing a used 40# bow to shoot until you are comfortable with the weight and then sell it and go up to 45-50 pounds in draw weight for the actual hunt.
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Originally posted by Mike Vines:
Originally posted by Plain Noel:
Running up hills is my actual training program.
Noel
Seeing as you're from California, the above statement sounds as though you are baiting them. HA!!! Last year when we were in CA, I thought about going for a jog and remembered that Cougars love joggers, so I went back to bed instead.[/b]
Well, now that's pretty good. I live across the street from a wilderness park where a mountain biker got the chomp about ten years ago. In fact that's where I do most of my running. I usually carry a .357 with me on those trips, though I doubt it will help, considering the way mountain lions usually hunt. I suspect I fear mountain lions out of proportion to their actual danger. Maybe that's part of the crazy idea to go get one with a bow.
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Beyond that, thank you all for your replies and personal notes. You've given me a great deal to think about and I suspect I will now be able to make a better decision about my next bow. In particular, the post about draw weight really got me thinking. After looking through the thread about kills with 40-45 pound bows, it is hard to think of a reason why I need more than that.
Warm regards to all,
Noel
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Remember this: What you can draw isn't necessarily what you can fully control. I can easily draw and shoot a 55# longbow. But it's not until I drop the weight right down to 40# that I can shoot in full control of the bow. Meaning draw back to anchor, full expansion, no slouch, hold rock steady on the bow arm. Release only when I want to with back tension no creep, no pluck....so on.
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I paid 150 bucks for one of my best and fastest longbows...nothing wrong with buying a used one...think about what those Samick bows are coming out the door of the factory for...they have to be taking some short cuts
DDave
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You are right to fear cougars...they simply lack any knowledge of proper etiquette when hunting
DDave
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Just for the folks who asked for an update...
Went with a 50# HH Wesley Special. Almost bought a Toelke whip - great reviews here and elsewhere and doubtless a fantastic bow - but the HH stuff strikes a chord with me and I'm sure I can figure out what to do with it.
I was a bit worried about the jump from 30# to 50# but have been regularly working with a "Bowtrainer" and have gotten to the point where 60# is fine and 70# is manageable. 50# should be adequate for anything I want to hunt and pulling the bow has become essentially a non-issue. I still have lots and lots of work to do before I can run far enough and shoot straight enough, but God willing I have the time to do it. Meanwhile, the local rabbit population needs to start worrying.
And thanks all for the intelligent and thoughtful posts, which have been very helpful.
Regards,
Noel
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Yes in most cases, you are getting a much more efficient bow and nicer looking! Yes faster bows just miss faster if you miss but when you jump up 15-20fps in speed, distance misjudging is considerably more forgiving in my opinion!!! There are some really nice looking bows out there that shoot average, but very very few of them command their price by looks alone, a bowyer can only command a high price for a reason and stay in business!!!!
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It's like anything in life....will a black widow make something more dead than a Bear Montana? No, but shoot both and you'll see why the Widow costs more and holds its value. Sure some of the price is supply/demand but on top of the quality you also get numerous custom fit options. Of course the Samick will work, people are killing things with selfbows, but if you can swing the cash a custom provides a heightened shooting experience, which will always make me more accurate.
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Good call on the HH also :thumbsup:
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"Don't leave your gun at home...Son..."
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Originally posted by Sacred mt:
"Don't leave your gun at home...Son..."
:clapper:
http://www.shop.bigjimsbowcompany.com/Used-Bows_c51.htm
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I know it's late, but...
I've been primarily a longbow shooter for the past 20 years (LBR = Long Bows Rule). All that means is I like longbows, but I have shot a lot of them.
My experience is longbows can vary a LOT, and more expensive doesn't mean a better bow. Actually the two most expensive ones I've shot were my least favorites...but the really cheap ones were pretty lousy too. I have a self bow that will out-shoot (out-perform) both.
Figuring out what you like is a biggie. Some longbows are practically recurves. Some are very heavy. Others are little more than a stick and string and feather light. Then there's all those that are in-between.
My personal favorite longbow design is a mild to moderate deflex/reflex, 66" long, semi-pistol grip, small riser made with heavy wood. At least it is for now...subject to change.