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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: gutfish on November 17, 2015, 06:45:00 AM
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I have been shooting a longbow for about 4 months now. Coming from a compound shooting stand point we use 1/8" nock height in our shop for just about everything (it seems to work the best for tuning). Ive been reading people are running the nock height on longbows and recurves much higher between 1/4" to 9/16". Is this true for most? I am shooting a Toelke Whip right now and was just looking for some imput on this topic to help better my shooting. Thanks and sorry if this is on the wrong thread.
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All of my longbows including my Whip are at 5/8"
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I will second Alexander's answer, both of my whips like 5/8". Good Luck.
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Yes, any book or article on tuning and setting up your bow will recommend something up to about 1/2 inch but every bow, arrow and shooter combination may require something different...
I start at 1/4" and work up to about 3/4 or when I notice bad arrow flight and then work down until it resides or starts bad again...then go in the middle to start.
Usually I have found that most of my bows with my shooting style do well at same location all other things being similar...then I draw a mark on my Nocking Square.
I shoot 11/32 and 23/64 shafts so mine is a bit higher than if I would shoot skinny carbons...
So you really have to find what works best for you to give good arrow flight so the shaft is not slapping against the shelf or porpoising downrange.
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Just an observation on my part-certainly nothing in stone, but I think most hunters have a tendency to shoot arrows that are stiff. A stiffer arrow is usually heavier and requires a higher nock set.
When I bare shaft tune with a range of spines, I usually find that (about) 3/8" high tunes best for me. There's so many variables (arrow spine, bow construction, shooters form, etc.) it's difficult to just say this or that is where the nock set needs to be. I guess the bottom line is, tune your bow and the nock set height will be what it will be. :^)
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Just like your compound. It's good to keep a log of changes you make and the result that comes from it. Much easier to go back to something that worked
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It's really irrelevant what others find they need, as each archer will find his own prime nock height through trial and error. But as others have stated, there are some generalities that will provide a reasonable starting point.
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Do you shoot split finger or three under? Generally speaking 3 under shooters use a higher nock point.
Welcome, by the way!!!!
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How's it shoot where you have it? My buffalo shoots 1/4 knock high, my longbow 3/8.
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5/8th seems to always be the number on what I'm working with.
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Thanks for all the info I am shooting split finger (guess i should have mentioned that) Currently i have it at 1/8" not knowing any better because of my compound background. It doenst seem to be shooting terrible but i will mess around with it and try some different heights.
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5/8 is where I usually end up as well with my recurves.
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Jim nailed it with this.
There's so many variables (arrow spine, bow construction, shooters form, etc.) it's difficult to just say this or that is where the nock set needs to be. I guess the bottom line is, tune your bow and the nock set height will be what it will be. :^)
If you can find the Matlock tuning guide I'd highly recommend grabbing it!!! But all of the current books on the market go over this subject very very well. I like Bills approach to it much better!
I'm somewhere on the lower end...but every bow make is somewhat different, I've had some really high and some very close to 1/8 over the years.
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I wonder if everyone's on the same page here. When we say nock height, we mean the distance from the bottom of the bow square, resting on the arrow rest, to the bottom of the nock. Then we would nock the arrow so the arrow nock is under the string nock. This would ordinarily result in nock heights of 3/8" - 3/4", although occasionally people might go a little higher or lower than this depending on a particular configuration.
If a person nocks above the string nock, then a nock height of 1/8" would be in the ball park. Or, sometimes I have read of nock heights being measured from the bottom of the bow square to the bottom of the arrow, in which case 1/8" would also be in the ball park, but this is not normally how we measure nock height in traditional archery.
We normally assume everyone is measuring nock height as I described in the first paragraph, but when things seem out of whack, maybe it's good to define our terms.
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Dave,
I don't believe that's entirely a fault at all...I've had some (very few) bows over the years that liked a super crazy low nock point. Some of that could have been rest material choices...who knows.
One thing I do know is bow tiller vs hand pressur e(shooting style) is an evil culprit when it comes to these things. I've said this many times over the years off and on.
I do agree most guys are going to be above 3/8s. I'm not shocked to see 1/4 nocked below.
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1/4 " nocking point ( if mounted below the nock point as described by McDave) means your arrow may be below level with the rest.
You have to go at least high enough to make the arrow approach at 90 degrees (at least) or you are inducing a jump right there.
Remember, the arrow has its own thickness and must be accounted for. That takes into account the shaft diameter and the nock diameter.
ChuckC
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shaft diameter is relevant...nock diameter is not. Tapered shafts CAN sit lower and still bullet hole paper...proven!
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in my directions on how to tune my last Schulz, it says1/16" above square that is with the arrow above the nocking point. I find that tapered cedars and tapered sure woods like to be just a touch more than that. I do find that it helps to make sure that the bottom hen feather is not going straight down with low a nocking point with three fletch 5 and 5.5" feathers.
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What i do is when i bareshaft tune i will start out nock high intentionally and slowly move it down until the nock is not high (arrow is flying straight on a vertical plane) this to keep from getting a false nock high from arrow bouncing off of the shelf this is better explained on masters of the barebow vol 2
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Why would nock diameter not be relevant ? It is THE contact point with the nock point.
ChuckC
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contact point is dead center of the nock. All nocks fall in this category regardless of make. There are very very very few differences in nocks on the market these days when you cut the OAD in half you're talking thousandths of an inch. Take into account MOST I'd bet 90% or more of folks are shooting similar nock profiles (regardless of make here).
Ie a 5/16 classic vs a 5/16 snap on is going to be almost exactly or within a few thou over half the diameter. Maybe 10 thou but I doubt it. Remember we're only concerned with HALF of the diameter when it comes to the nock. ANd that's assuming nock size is the same or smaller than shaft size. Most nocks are smaller than shaft sizes these days, I haven't seen one that is the same size at the throat since the stotler mids. EVERY nock is going to contact on the dead center point, so everything below is void relative to nock over all nock heigth. I still have my old mercs and stotler mids and those are slightly tapered if I remember right. And even with the stotlers they may push the nock up a tad more than a bohning classic but 1/16" of an inch it wont do. MAYBE 1/32...maybe!
I'd guess less 1/64, or less! over all..
NOW....
IF you are making nocks say horn nocks or glued on self nocks etc. Than sure its possible that the diameter is going to play some roll that is going to be noticeable in your over all nock placement. Put some large ears on for shooting a large nock so you can shoot Turkish style, again a pinch style release..than again yes its possible. Pinch like Lars is doing, not thumb rings like Yumi's.
But reality is unless you're putting a tree on the back end its not likely going to have any or very very minimal effect. I'd bet there is less than 1% of guys using nocks larger than the diameter of the shaft at the throat, and again 1% of folks shooting same diameter nocks at the throat as the same diameter of the shaft. and I'd also make the guess that 95% of those shooting shot some form of tapered nock like a classic, snap on, old merc, etc.
So take a guy shooting a tapered or barrel tapered 11/32 shaft with a 5/16 nock. 1/4 over is not out of the question. half of 11/32 is .172, which is less than 1/4 at .25. Half of 5/16 is .156. These numbers are based on the ideal that the nock is the same diameter of the shaft. Nock off a few more though for the tapered flats where your nock sits and it can be even lower yet.
SO its POSSIBLE to see a lower than normal nock height on some setups. Take in other factors, tiller, bow design, rest material/placement (not everyone shoots off the shelf), etc etc... IT IS POSSIBLE and I personally have proven it! That doesn't mean its NORMAL! I agree 100% it is unlikely you'll see anything below 1/4 very often....or even at 1/4.
I've also seen guys who measure with thick rests, like seal skin, or unsheared Velcro or a host of others, make references to those lower nocks. Guys shooting leather or a hard flipper style are able to get 100% accurate numbers. This is where my 1/8 figure came from, a bow shot (not mine personally), with a high material. He was a pretty good buddy of mine so we had this very conversation over a lot of years.
My current bow is like most at 3/8. But in 25 years I've shot and owned a LOT of sticks that didn't fit any mold. A Robertson longbow in particular still to this day bugs the crap out of me! Great bow, didn't fit my shooting style!
now....in the end does it really matter? NO!
The only thing that matters is arrow flight! that's it, its really that simple. If it flies so be it, should it or should it not is a good campfire discussion or range fun time, semantecs are just that, hypothetical equations. I enjoy all of it.
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Keep going. Why are concerned only with half the diameter ? Unless you are talking of the upper half.
The contact point of the nock to the string may be dead center, but to the nocking point, which influences its location on the string it is on top surface of the nock, not the center of the shaft.
Even if the nock had no thickness at all it centers the shaft, which gives it some height to start with, yes, half the diameter of the shaft, but it does have thickness, so the top of the nock, that portion that contacts the nocking point, be it crimp on or string, is thicker than half the diameter of the arrow.
Using your numbers above the half diameter of the shaft being .172 plus half the diameter of the nock if it is 5/16" (the upper half above center of the shaft) being .156 totals .328, which is more than the .250 (quarter inch you spoke of).
Same goes for a 5/16 shaft.
I guess i am not understanding.
ChuckC
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Originally posted by gutfish:
Thanks for all the info I am shooting split finger (guess i should have mentioned that) Currently i have it at 1/8" not knowing any better because of my compound background. It doenst seem to be shooting terrible but i will mess around with it and try some different heights.
Just do some paper tuning, and adjust from there.
A good starting point is have the arrow sloping down hill to the rest about 1/8" from 90 degrees...
Shaft diameter and type of rest will change the actual measurement, but who cares?. I always tie my nock on about 1/2"-5/8" using a bow square, and adjust her down from there.... you got it bro...Just "mess with it." till she flies right. that's what most guys do.
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not understanding or I'm doing a terrible job explaining LOL! nothing new for me, my English is ATLEAST 2nd to my jibberish. I know what I'm trying to say, but at this point I guess its not worth trying to explain it, it just aint coming out right?!?
you don't add half the shaft plus half the nock, you're only worried about what's above the center point of the nock, half the nock The shaft diameter is irrelevant to a degree. The half numbers are if and only if the nock was exactly the same diameter of the shaft, which it is not generally speaking. But again that varies. I thought I did explain that in detail as best I could. So using the numbers, and in reality a nock can easily sit below the level of the shaft,and generally does, enough that the OA brace height can be lower than one could ever imagine. not with all setups, not even with most setups, but it certainly isn't abnormal. Normal was stated and I agree hole heartedly that being that low is NOT normal, but that doesn't mean its wrong either as I have proven on an old doug knight longbow I owned and wish I had never sold! If the bow wants it, feed it and go on your marry way!
In the end, really it doesn't matter, NP is what it is, and that's all that matters. Playing semantics isn't worth the headaches anymore after this many years. I tried with spine, and continue for some morbid reasons unknown to myself. Though I do it less and less. Sometimes its easier to let people learn their own road to freedom than trying to steer the wheels to get them there...though its generally made my life easier as a arrow builder to assist. Its the main reason I stopped building strings and arrows. Unfortunatly the trad world believes that things are hard and fast when it comes to numbers. In reality there is so many nuances that we have no control, or some we do, that you could pull what little hair I have left out trying to figure out some setups, when others just easily fall into place.
Start high, come down and find the sweet spot and don't play semantics about what it SHOULD be..let the bow tell you what it wants and to heck with the should be's. Just like in finding the right spine, and to a lesser degree BH (though there is obvious no no's, to high to low, with this one).
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Yep, numerous makes of bows, all shot split finger, all at 5/8"
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Awesome guys, lots of good information here. I will shoot bare shaft where im at and adjust from there. Thanks for all the info!
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It will also depend on your release . Do you have your pluck in order ?
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That's OK Dan,
I get confused easily anymore. Maybe over a campfire some day we can discuss and use nature's chalkboard (the dirt) to draw pic's and discuss further. We are probably saying the same thing.
ChuckC
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1/2" for me. Split finger, longbow and recurve. Aluminum and carbon arrows.
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People seem to be trying to make this into rocket science...I am pretty sure it is not...if not sure I err a bit, maybe an 1/8 inch on the high side
DDave
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Chuck, you're on! I may have to head your way for some GL steelie action in the not so distant future!