Can you feel the difference?

[forestdweller]

Originally posted by LBR:
Not my experience at all with the Sage or Journey.  The Sage stacks a bit at the end of my draw (31"), I don't feel the Journey stack at all.  I'll check on my digital scale when I think of it to be sure.

Haven't checked the speed on a chrony (no idea where mine even is...haven't used it in a long time), but they aren't slow, or unforgiving.  

I haven't shot one with the factory string though.  That could be the difference.  I'm sure it's at least part of it.

Well I never said they stack, they just *feel stacky* because recurves and bows with refelx/deflex have a high preload which makes the early draw more strenuous compared to say a bow with no reflex/deflex or has some string follow which are buttery smooth early on in the draw.

By unforgiving I meant that the limb tips can easily be torqued. When I first shot a sage that I later sold I could not figure out why the string kept leaving the string groove.

It was a very hit or miss bow with me. I'd have day's where I shot great with it and day's where it was all over the place due to the limbs being easily torqued.

This is just my personal experience with the bow and I know some people that love the sage so to each their own!

[McDave]

I've had expensive recurves where the limb tips torqued, and the string kept leaving the grooves.  I could bend the limb tips back into alignment, but after a while it went out of alignment again.  Eventually the limb tips weakened to the extent that the bow would unstring itself at full draw.  That was the end of that bow!  I've had other recurves, like the first Black Widow I bought in the early 90’s, where the limb tips have never torqued.  It is as aligned now as it was the day I bought it.

I think there are inherent weaknesses in wood that can cause one side or the other of a recurve to have less strength, and be susceptible to limb twist.  Two bows can be constructed identically out of the same wood, but different pieces, and one will be susceptible to limb twist while the other one won't.  I don't think there is enough torqueing force on a r/d longbow for this to be a problem.  If you find a recurve where his doesn't happen in the first year, I think you are good to go for the life of the bow.  My experience is that 1 out of 15-20 recurves will have a problem with limb twist, but I really haven't owned enough recurves (yet, I'm working on it) to make that statement with any confidence.

To me, the extra draw weight at the beginning of the draw is free power.  I have to get out to full draw anyway; why not store as much energy as possible in the early part of the draw, when it is still relatively easy to pull the bow?

[Pointer]

Welcome to the Gang...as it happens the Wing Thunderbird is a fine bow. Maybe one of the best production bows ever made in fact.

If it fits you then stick with it. Make time to attend some 3D shoots and try out a bunch of bows. They all have a different feel to them but the real question is what fits YOU the best and feels most comfortable for YOU to shoot.

Don't be surprised if it continues to be the Wing even after you have shot a bunch of custom bows

[forestdweller]

Originally posted by McDave:
I've had expensive recurves where the limb tips torqued, and the string kept leaving the grooves.  I could bend the limb tips back into alignment, but after a while it went out of alignment again.  Eventually the limb tips weakened to the extent that the bow would unstring itself at full draw.  That was the end of that bow!  I've had other recurves, like the first Black Widow I bought in the early 90’s, where the limb tips have never torqued.  It is as aligned now as it was the day I bought it.

I think there are inherent weaknesses in wood that can cause one side or the other of a recurve to have less strength, and be susceptible to limb twist.  Two bows can be constructed identically out of the same wood, but different pieces, and one will be susceptible to limb twist while the other one won't.  I don't think there is enough torqueing force on a r/d longbow for this to be a problem.  If you find a recurve where his doesn't happen in the first year, I think you are good to go for the life of the bow.  My experience is that 1 out of 15-20 recurves will have a problem with limb twist, but I really haven't owned enough recurves (yet, I'm working on it) to make that statement with any confidence.

To me, the extra draw weight at the beginning of the draw is free power.  I have to get out to full draw anyway; why not store as much energy as possible in the early part of the draw, when it is still relatively easy to pull the bow?

Well by torque besides the string leaving the groove, if you grab a hold of the very tip of a recurve and can twist it clockwise or counter clockwise than it's easy to torque the shot.

I'm not trying to start an argument with you brother but the earliest part of the draw is actually the hardest on your body (your shoulder joints in particular) because of the position of your arms and because you are not in as strong of a position as you would be in nearing full draw.

This is why a lot of compound archers end up with bad shoulder injuries.

If you don't believe me take two bows that add up to a draw weight that is very heavy for you and try to draw them back.

You should notice that you are weakest in the early to mid draw and gradually become stronger once you are over that mid way point in the draw cycle and are really engaging your back muscles.

This is also the reason why I think that you see some guys shooting 70+ pound longbows up to 120 pounds or so yet hardly ever hear of people shooting 90+ pound recurves.

[McDave]

Yes, I guess I should have made a distinction between torquing the shot and twisting the limbs.  Because of the ease of moving the limb tips, it is easier to torque a shot on a recurve by than on a longbow, whether straight limbed or r/d.  Not torquing the shot is just one more thing that one has to learn in shooting the recurve, easier than some things, harder than others.  Occasional torquing of the string or bow won't ruin a recurve, although it will ruin that particular shot.

When I wrote of torquing the shot in my post above, I meant shooting a recurve with limbs that are inherently out of balance, so that every shot is torqued, with or without the shooter's help.  The continuous torquing of each shot eventually weakens the limbs so they will unstring at full draw.  You can straighten the limbs so they look in alignment at brace height, but they will bend to the side as you draw the bow.

I didn't know that about the additional effort required to draw a bow near brace height as compared with near full draw.  I guess since I've always drawn bows with higher tension in the beginning of the draw, it just seems normal to me, and when I draw a bow without that additional tension, it just seems weak to me.  I've never been fond of really heavy weight bows, and fortunately my shoulders are still hanging in there.

Enjoy your bow and probably if you stick(ha!) with it for a few years, you will get the bug to try a custom bow. It's sort of like.....a Chevy will get you to work but a BMW has a lot more going on. Custom bows have different limb and riser designs, woods, grips, lengths, cores etc, and each of those things influences the feel of the bow. There is no perfect bow (except the one you are shooting at any given moment) but you may find that you prefer a narrower or fuller grip, for example, and a custom bow is the way to get what you want.

[forestdweller]

Originally posted by McDave:
Yes, I guess I should have made a distinction between torquing the shot and twisting the limbs.  Because of the ease of moving the limb tips, it is easier to torque a shot on a recurve by than on a longbow, whether straight limbed or r/d.  Not torquing the shot is just one more thing that one has to learn in shooting the recurve, easier than some things, harder than others.  Occasional torquing of the string or bow won't ruin a recurve, although it will ruin that particular shot.

When I wrote of torquing the shot in my post above, I meant shooting a recurve with limbs that are inherently out of balance, so that every shot is torqued, with or without the shooter's help.  The continuous torquing of each shot eventually weakens the limbs so they will unstring at full draw.  You can straighten the limbs so they look in alignment at brace height, but they will bend to the side as you draw the bow.

I didn't know that about the additional effort required to draw a bow near brace height as compared with near full draw.  I guess since I've always drawn bows with higher tension in the beginning of the draw, it just seems normal to me, and when I draw a bow without that additional tension, it just seems weak to me.  I've never been fond of really heavy weight bows, and fortunately my shoulders are still hanging in there.

Ahh I see there was just some confusion about what you meant. I have only had experience with my recurve's throwing a shot off when I over gripped the bow.

Oddly enough the recurve that I currently have (Samick Journey) had a twisted limb from not being used and put in the corner of a room sitting there for months and the top limb became twisted.

I just made a flemish twist string for it and after replacing the endless loop string that was on it with a flemish twist string the limb twist is 100% completely gone.....very odd and interesting.

As for limb design and no preoload vs little preoload and where the bow builds up most in draw weight I think it's personal preference.

I've come to learn that I really enjoy shooting a bow that feels buttery smooth in the early to mid draw and only builds up the weight gradually towards the end of my draw in which I feel the strongest.

But I do understand that some people love a heavy preload and a soft back end. So to each their own my friend    

[McDave]

Oddly enough the recurve that I currently have (Samick Journey) had a twisted limb from not being used and put in the corner of a room sitting there for months and the top limb became twisted.

I just made a flemish twist string for it and after replacing the endless loop string that was on it with a flemish twist string the limb twist is 100% completely gone.....very odd and interesting.

Possibly the opposite of what I was talking about.  Some bows may have an propensity to twist, due to an inherent weakness on one side or the other of a limb.  Perhaps a bow that is well balanced on each side of the limbs may have a propensity to return to proper alignment once the force is removed that caused it to twist.  Sort of like mangled feathers held in steam will more or less return to their original shape.

Howard Hill once made the statement that he didn't feel like he was a good enough archer to shoot recurves.  Other than false modesty, perhaps he got hold of a recurve with inherent instability in the limbs.  It is a weird feeling to look down the string on a bow that appears to be in alignment, and then shoot it and have the arrows go all over the place.  It wasn't until the bow unstrung itself at full draw that I began to realize what was going on.  Didn't make me hate recurves; just a quirk to watch out for.  Have spotted the same thing on two other recurves (not mine) since then.

[Wheels2]

The string with the Samicks is the first thing I would update.