Another bowyer situation

[Matabele]

Hi all,

I'm just looking for some advice. I was having a custom bow made up for me by a well known bowyer and I asked if I could supply the riser wood and limb veneers. He said no problem and offered to collect them for me, which took him a while out of  his way. Awesome so far. I paid full price for the bow, so nothing was discounted for me supplying the wood.

The situation is, the limb veneers split on the first draw of the bow. The bowyer is claiming poor quality and integrity of the veneers.

So now we are deciding between us what to do, he hasnt had this situation occur before and neither have I. He's saying If I back out of the deal he's into the bow more than 50% (my deposit) and I would owe him some sort of refund for the work so far. My argument is although I supplied the veneers Im counting on his judgement and experience as to whether they were usable or not. At no point was it mentioned this could be a potential problem...if so I might have asked to use something he supplied.

Now he has offered to make a replacement (I think...have asked him to go into more detail what he was suggesting)using woods he has on hand and I'm waiting to see exactly what that means, what woods he's suggesting etc.

Thing is to me part of buying a custom bow is choosing the things you find pleasing. So I mean if I offer him instead of the remaining 50% deposit, something like 60% for a few bells and whistles added...is this reasonable? What do you guys think...should he be offering to take a bigger hit and make things good? It's a different world I know but I make custom guns and if a customer supplies a piece of walnut I scrutinise the heck out of it before using it, and if it cracks on shooting I'd repair it or replace it at my cost.

I just want to end this by saying he's been great to deal with so far, things are still amicable and I dont see that sitaution changing. He's trying to engage with me and figure something out, and I understand he's running a business that puts food on his table and that he tried to accomodate me as a customer right in the begining. I just feel I'm having to swallow quite a big chunk of this situation.

Hopefully some advice here will help us both to come up with a decision.

[dragonheart]

Sounds like you are buying from a reasonable business person.  I only supplied wood for a bow once.  Never again for me.  Hope it works out for you.  If you want a bow from the bowyer work with him, cost you a bit, gamble did not work out on supplying the wood.  I know it is easy to blame the bowyers judgement to look for fault, but stuff happens with wood.  If not, eat deposit and leave situation.

[dirtguy]

Did you personally mill down the veneers? Or did you purchase them from someone else?  Did you and he both check the source of the veneers?

[Matabele]

Originally posted by dirtguy:
Did you personally mill down the veneers? Or did you purchase them from someone else?  Did you and he both check the source of the veneers?

I purchased these from a reputable source, actually a well known sponsor on TG.Hes supplied a number of other bowyers and individuals on this forum.

[Matabele]

Originally posted by dragonheart:
Sounds like you are buying from a reasonable business person.  I only supplied wood for a bow once.  Never again for me.  Hope it works out for you.  If you want a bow from the bowyer work with him, cost you a bit, gamble did not work out on supplying the wood.  I know it is easy to blame the bowyers judgement to look for fault, but stuff happens with wood.  If not, eat deposit and leave situation.

Thanks, last time I'm going to send my own wood lol I'd still like one of his bows so hopefully we can come to an agreement.

[Shadowhnter]

Originally posted by Matabele:
 

Originally posted by dirtguy:
Did you personally mill down the veneers? Or did you purchase them from someone else?  Did you and he both check the source of the veneers?

I purchased these from a reputable source, actually a well known sponsor on TG.Hes supplied a number of other bowyers and individuals on this forum. [/b]

We're these vaneers spalted by chance?

[Eric Krewson]

A guy supplied an osage stave for me to make his BBO out of.The stave looked good to start with but turned out to have hard and soft spots. I am having to do all of the limb belly reduction with an orbital sander because anything that scrapes digs in when it hits a soft spot. The bow will be a good shooter but probably my last from customer supplied wood.

The bow came in 12# over which is a lot of weight to remove with a sander, it is taking me forever.

You never know what you are going to get if it is not your wood.

[Gooserbat]

Well, I just supplied some wood to a bowyer for a new longbow.  I only provided for the riser overlays.  I honestly don't think I would want to be responsible for anything that has any sort of structural integrity or potential to fail.  If the bowyer picks it out and it comes apart then it's his but on the other hand if it's my decision then really only I can be blamed.

[pdk25]

Never heard of that happening before, and would think that a fiberglass bow appropriately glued with an intact veneer should hold up, but a bowyer would be better able to comment on that.  My first red flag is that you supplied the veneers and riser block and still paid full price.  I have done this several times with Brian Wessel of TallTines, and the upcharge for exotics was done away with.  Same with Gregg Coffey at JavaMan.  My personal feeling is that it is the responsibility of the bowyere to tell you if he feels the wood is suspect.  I have had the situation where a piece of riser block was too wet and couldn't be used, and was told of the risk of checking when it was dried.  I understood that going in.

[Matabele]

Well the bowyer has offered to replace the bow using his own woods. For my part I really appreciate the gesture. I won't be getting the bow I was hoping for but it'll be awesome anyway hopefully! Thanks for all the advice    

[Sixby]

I just had a similar situation wherin a customer sent me some beautiful mango veneers and as soon as I got them in I checked them out very carefully and one of them was cracked across the grain. They were well packaged with a strong slat on each side so I knew that they were cracked before shipping as I very carefully unwrapped them and laid them out on a table to check them out.
So I called my customer and told him and said I could glue them and that they would probably hold but that I would not recommend that nor would I guarantee the limbs as the veneers were .030 thick and I could not take a chance on grinding them down.
He determined to opt for a beautiful set of myrtle veneers I had so problem solved and I sent his back with the bow.
I think I will probably not be taking wood from a customer again because if I had somehow missed the cracking and brittle wood I would have owed the customer for his wood and had to build a new set of limbs on top of that.
When a bowyer agrees to use a customers wood he could be setting themselves up for a large loss of money and time.
Also I refuse to use inferior wood , no matter how beautiful in limbs unless I can grind it down to .015 so that the glue really holds it and penetrates the veneer completely.
That's my take and its probably worth about 10 cents.
God bless, Steve

[McDave]

I think replacing it with his own wood is a reasonable compromise, as that is the same thing he would be doing if he had ordered the veneers himself.  Of course, you shouldn't be paying more than you would if you had ordered a bow with his stock wood to start with.

[Keith Zimmerman]

I sent some veneers to Schafer for several bows.  No issues.  I guess stuff happens.  Sounds like the bowyer and you are gonna work it out.  Good for you guys.

[M60gunner]

I supplied some wood for a bow. I had the bowyer use it as a sight window inlay and limb tip overlays. He commented the inlay wood sunk in just about where the side plate goes. It is not noticeable and has not been an issue. But last time I do the supply thing as well.

I am glad to hear the bowyer and you came to an agreement you are happy with. I do understand it can be a disappointment the original materials did not work. Going through that right now with some Koa I have had forever. The pieces have twisted and not suitable for a riser.

[Tedd]

Matabele,
What lb draw weight are you getting?
What kind of African monsters are you going after?
Tedd

[Matabele]

Originally posted by Tedd:
Matabele,
What lb draw weight are you getting?
What kind of African monsters are you going after?
Tedd

Hey Tedd. Some of the big antelope like Eland are definitely on the cards, and there's a possibility of water buff in the future. I was wanting an arrow over 650gr shooting 10gr/lb so decided on a bow around 70lb draw for some safety factor    :D

[Matabele]

Sorry the Koa didn't work out M60gunner, that's some pretty timber for sure! I once had a bow with kuari wood veneers, similar to koa.. loved that bow.

[joe vt]

I picked some veneers from a third party source and had them sent to a bowyer. The bow came out exquisite. The bowyer did look them over before gluing up.


Whether or not you supply the wood or the bowyer supplies the wood; the bowyer is the one inspecting the wood before use. If he uses veneers  I send I obviously expect him to inspect them prior to use. I also expect him to inspect veneers out of his stock prior to use. Just seems logical.


I would like to know more about how a veneer can split after being glued and laminated together with fiberglass   :confused:   :confused:


Glad you and him worked it out.

[Sixby]

HOw the veneer can split is usually during the cooking process or during air up. I have had one split the first time the bow was drawn. It became a part of the bad limb pile which someday I will make a neat lamp out of. LOL. That was my wood and no problem except for my loss of materials and time. As years go by less and less of that stuff happens. Could it be that I might be more careful and perehaps slightly more knowledgable now?  I suppose that is a possibility. I now air up in increments with a period of time between airups to allow the glue to move without major pressure on it. I also carefully inspect every veneer for defects.

God bless, Steve

[Walt Francis]

Originally posted by Sixby:
HOw the veneer can split is usually during the cooking process or during air up. I have had one split the first time the bow was drawn. It became a part of the bad limb pile which someday I will make a neat lamp out of. LOL. That was my wood and no problem except for my loss of materials and time. As years go by less and less of that stuff happens. Could it be that I might be more careful and perehaps slightly more knowledgable now?  I suppose that is a possibility. I now air up in increments with a period of time between airups to allow the glue to move without major pressure on it. I also carefully inspect every veneer for defects.

God bless, Steve

X2

I had the veneers on two different bows split apart, both because of unseen cracks in the juniper veneers.  I now use at least .060 veneers for all my bows and haven't had any issues since.  Never had an one split after the glue up though.

FYI, both bows shoot good, they are just ugly.