PA Game lands inquiry - deer numbers

[Doc Nock]

If you think it's bad now...wait to see what happens to hunting in PA if the legislature takes over the PGC...   :eek:      

Even the highly berated Gary Alt shared in private once what I thought was a head nod to my thought that smaller management as in "site specific" would be better.  Some states I've hunted had extra doe permits on "private" land where on heavily hunted public, not so!

Lots of ideas. And the neat thing is that while some above seem to have their mind made up, some seem to realize there are a lot of variables in something this complex... and we might just be one of the variables.  

[JDinPA]

I contacted the game commission through their website this week. I gave some observations and was looking for more information. I received a smart-@#$ comment back from the person on the other end of the email communication. I got a name. I then called my regional office to get a different contact and forward the string of correspondence I had through email. I was on hold for 25 minutes and finally hung up.

I've met plenty of PA conservation officers in my time and I've always shown respect and always come out with a positive experience. I expect the same respect to be shown to me when I contact the commission. The person I corresponded with thorugh email is the press secretary for the PA game commission for goodness sakes! I would think they would be a little better in public relations.

I can't wait to actually talk to a conservation officer to let them know my experience.

Ugh, frustrating.

[turkey65]

Doc Nock mentioned Gary Alt, it was through his efforts that the current management program was set up. Explain to me how you have better control of an area when you lump ten counties under the same management area. The terrain is so different that no program can cover all. Understand I know we needed a system to get our out of balance herd in proper ratio, I just feel it went too far the other way. Deer hunting was the commission's cash cow, thats disappearring and the number of out of stater's is also dropping, in our area that means more camps on the market. No simple cure but one I believe in is smaller management areas.

[Tedd]

I have yet to see a deer. I don't know if I'll even go out anymore this year.

I leased some ground in VA but can't find the time to use it. My Brother-in-law hunted it last week and saw 20 deer per day and passed n some small bucks. what a difference. PA sucks!

[BFinegan]

I keep hearing people blame the game commission for the lack of deer "up north". That might be true. I can only say from my previous experience working in the timber industry and being in the woods almost daily, that the deer herd is altering the composition of the "forest" and the impacts reverberate amongst all other game species. I'm willing to see be objective to see how this turns out knowing the current situation is not sustainable.

Let's not forget what a great job the coyote has done coming on line here in PA and we all know our Bear population is expanding. Here's a link about fawn mortality and the star performers are coyotes and bears.

 http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=465&q=152750

I don't think it's any one thing that is causing the change in deer herd.

Tedd---hang in there. I don't think Pa sucks (except for lack of sunday hunting) but I can only imagine how frustrating it is to have a camp upstate not seeing deer.

[Doc Nock]

Richard,

I probably should NOT have even brought it up, so let me clarify. In my time living in MT, then VA they had what they called "site specific management." That meant from one ridge to another ---seasons, species and bag limits changed. Very taxing, but I admired it.

I mentioned this to Gary and, best memory serves me that many years ago, he mumbled something about "having merit... but you have to work with the system available" Whatever his comment was specifically, let me take responsiblity for "thinking" that he'd have preferred much smaller management units in agreement with models I'd shared like above.

Obviously, while he was the one in charge of the overall concept for deer management, I think it unlikely he had carte blance to set all the rules for all aspects. I heard other of the "Commissioners" voice their opinion that we needed fewer, not more, management units. Bam. We got some honking big 'uns now.

If PA would just implement a bit more conservative policies on public lands, like VA, I "wonder" if it might help. No crystal ball in my poke, but it's a curiosity. Where they get hammered, back off some...where it's private, whack and stack if need be.

Just too complex for my head...makes my brain sweat!

[JDinPA]

Doc,
We share a few of the same ideas, hopefully the game commission directors will start listening to the hunters in earnest.

[Doc Nock]

Don't even get me started JD on Commissioners... We pay scientist to study, recommend and do what they are hired to do to have these political machines do exactly opposite. And then we blame the PGC...best I can tell its more these individuals who seem to be answerable only to themselves that are the problem, not the PGC per se.

Although..the comment above of rude behavior from a PGC representative is indeed concerning

[Lee Viv]

Allow me to throw my opinions in here.  I agree with alot of what Doc has to say.

There are some factors to be taken into consideration as far as PA hunting as compared to other states.  PA sells over 200,000 archery stamps each year.  That's alot of bowhunters in the woods!  I'm sure that when everybody used to see a lot more deer, it was before this explosion took place.  Also, more and more priveate lands are being posted than ever before. This puts a great amount of pressure on Game Lands.  

As far as getting harvest numbers to determine future tag allocations, I have heard numerous people claim that they shot a deer, and butchered it, without tagging it.  By the way, most of this came from hunters from "Up North" where there are NO DEER!  How can you accurately determine allocations, when the hunters(and I use that term loosely) won't legally tag and report harvested deer.  The game commission actually has a formula they use to calculate unsent tags.  That's pathetic!

I also find the GAme Comission at fault. They cater to politics, and not listening to the biologists who are making suggestions.  The WMA theory is ridiculous.  The areas are too large, and the allocation system is horrible.  But we can't take away the revenue for the county treasurers can we.

In summing it up, I'm just saying I believe there are a lot of factors in PA contributing to this problem.  To blame one group is probably shortsighted.

The answer?  Couldn't tell you.  I do see deer sign when I go out, but I believe like Doc that it's nocturnal activity now.  Just means I have to hunt a little harder and smarter from now on.

Thank you for putting up with my time on the soapbox, I'm goin hunting!


Lee  

[longbowman]

I live in the N.W. corner of the state and have Game Lands all around me.  I happen to have access to more than 500 acres of private farmland to hunt too.  Are the deer numbers down...YOU BET THEY ARE!  Are there deer on the Game Lands...yes.  I've found that it just takes a massive amount of foot work and continous scouting to keep tabs on the deer that we have compared to 10 yrs. ago.  I hunted at least 4 times a week this season and finally shot my buck on the 30th.  During that time I saw a grand total of 9 buck and 17 doe.  I had stands hung from behind my house to 11 miles away.  It's tuff but there's deer.  To the original person who started this post...you're more than welcome to come up here to hunt and I can show you deer on Game Lands that are not difficult to get to.

[Tedd]

Longbowman: "I hunted at least 4 times a week this season"

...and thats what I'm talking about, only a select few can put in the time to get themselves "into" deer. I know how to hunt as good as the next guy, but without time to find the few straglers of deer, hunting them is pretty much a joke. I have no desire to even go out.

[longbowman]

Tedd,  You get no argument from me on this one.  I am very privileged to be able to get out as much as I do.  My son got to hunt even more than I did but he didn't put the leg work into it and has only seen 6 deer all year and none in shooting position.  It's very hard out there.  I too like the antler restriction but I believe it should be the same state wide with 3 points on one antler.  I had a one morning two evening period that I had 3 different buck over 16" inside spread that didn't have the 4th point on one antler and had to let them walk.

[Thaihunter]

I hunt mostly state game lands and have been successful and fustrated at the same time.  However this year has not been a banner year.  I usually see up to 20 or more deer per archery season, per 6-7 days of evening hunts.  This year I have seen only 3 deer and jump two, I have been out for only 5 days of hunting.  I hunt in upper York County and I think the new home construction is part of the problem and land being posted with no hunting.  I also hunt on one private property that has an abundance of deer.  This property is in a residental area and each home has at least 5 acres.  Last year I harvested a big doe and could not get the bucks to come close enough to get a decent shot. I saw 5 legal bucks on this property and was very excited to hunt on this property this Saturday during the rutt. While checking in with the property owner, they decided to not allow hunting on their property because a friend of theirs was sued from a neighbor because a rifle hunter's bullet hit their property.  They did not want any liability isssues.  There are deer around but they are not in public lands.  Why should deer run in public land when they are being fed expensive landscaping and being protected?

[JDinPA]

Originally posted by BigHink66:
Scoter,

The game commission sold more permits when it was only a 3 day doe season in order to get the harvest numbers that they wanted. This meant more money.  Now they don't sell as many because rifle hunters have more time to fill their tag including the very important Saturdays.

As far as the horses and bikers on gamelands, My position is that they shouldn't necessarilly be banned from that use on the gamelands.
However, they should be required to purchase a hunting license in order to support the resources that they are enjoying free of charge.  They should be patroled and penalized for leaving groomed trails.

As far as the herd in the north Central section.  It has been so unbalanced for so long that people thought it was normal.  Herd reduction should have taken place 25 years ago.  My thoughts are that they need to start selectively harvesting some of the state and national forest to get income from that resource and to improve the habitat.  

One thing that I have noticed up abround Marienville, President, and up to Bradford is the amount of camps for sale.  Where the population hunts is shifting to other areas.  I predict that we will see the herd become unbalanced again in the near future with too many deer and not enough hunters.

As far as gamelands,

Some good ones on the west side of the state are Area 39,  Area 151, and Hillman State Park (which is run as a gameland).

I think all those camps are for sale is because so many deer are gone and the hunter numbers are dropping in PA.

Thanks for the info on 39 and 151, I'll check them out.

[Doc Nock]

Good to see you post, Lee.    Better to see ya at the door sometime!  

When I was living in central PA, there were game lands that would take you the better part of a full day of hard hiking to get across.  Down here in the SE, the lands are way too accessable from multiple directions to find any "hidey holes'.  

There is one..along the river. I did find some hellacious trails diving right off the steep sides and a few tiny benches... with decent sign on them.

But, y'know, at my age, I'm just about fat enough and learned enough to know I don't want to stick one there and have it peel off down to the river and RR beds and even THINK about having to find a way to truck that sucker back kup...especially a nice fat doe or buck.

Yup. I admit. There are some places I used to go and just don't anymore. I leave that to those who are younger, in better shape and more daring than myself.

Lee, I don't THINK the deer on most of the public property in our area are nocturnal, I know it!     When I was outa work, I'd get to go pretty regularly at times till gas $$ ran out and I'd find fresh rubs & scrapes coming in at dead dark 30 in the AM and no deer moved all day, "rinse and repeat" (sorry..that's a shampoo analogy for folks with hair, Lee! ).

I could've made gas $$ though selling sandwhiches and drinks to all the guys in the parking lot were I smarter and more entreprenural!