So called "instinctive" vs conscious aiming

[J-KID]

Ray,

I think we agree on everything but terminology and I realize I'm a psychologist and biased toward rigid definitions in the name of science.  I typically stay away from these discussions because, as you said, many people are not able to handle the deviation from their reality.  I think it's usually exciting to pursue the turth.

I'm sure I would enjoy discussing your insights around a campfire.  I think we'd make most people turn in early!

[BLACK WOLF]

Jay,

I'm sure we are boring some people to death with this but it has definitely been interesting to me        

You mentioned reflexes earlier and stated that no brain functioning is associated with a reflex response as when a chicken gets it's head cut off.

How than can shooting a bow be a reflex response when we need the brain to be stimulated in order to accurately aim a bow?

It appears that you are saying that in order for a reaction to be an instinct requires the brain to respond to certain stimuli and a refexive action doesn't require that.

I believe the 'fixed action response' is not stimulated by holding a bow and arrow in the hand but is stimulated on what the archer sees...just as a fawn needs to have one or more of it's senses to be stimulated in order to know when and/or where to flee.

When an archer sees his target within a distance he is very familiar with and conciously decides to shoot, the action taken is fixed based on what the brain has learned through repetition. There is no reasoning taking place such as what is the exact gap I need or where should my arrow point be in relationship to the target.

Some instinctive archers never learn to be conciously aware of the arrow or any other reference point...whereas other archers may start out with a conscious aiming techinique and master it to the point they no longer are conciously making adjustments within their aiming process.

In the previous definitions I used it does say that an instinct is inherent...but it also used the word 'largely' to help describe the amount that it is inherent, which to me doesn't mean 'only'...which could be why there is a grey area concerning the application of this word.

It's getting late and my head is starting to hurt...Time for me to go to bed        

Ray    

[J-KID]

Shooting can become "instinct like" and it can become "like a fixed action pattern."  However, a reflex is a stimulus-response that occurs with no brain functioning and animals are born with instincts and no learning/experience is ever required.  I think an accurate statement would be that shooting can become an automatic response of the subconscious (requires brain functioning and is learned through experience).

[Molson]

Jay and Ray,

"It does not require many words to speak the truth." -Chief Joseph    

...but this is a pretty interesting campfire conversation!  

[BLACK WOLF]

Jay,

I just want to clarify…I’m not trying to say that aiming a bow and arrow is or has to be an instinct as an inherent behavior that we are born with.

I’m mainly concerned with trying to show how and why the different applications of the word ‘instinctive and instinct’ can apply to an aiming techinique based on semantics and how instinctive aiming does exist.

Some food for thought.

I believe ALL animals, including humans, share some of the same BASIC instincts, which are to survive and reproduce.

I believe how each species survives and reproduces is based on genetics, which are transfered from one generation to the next and can evolve through learning, adaptation, survival of the fittest and selective breeding.

Take a wolf for example         - One of the strongest and most basic of the instincts of a wolf is the hunting instinct – this was essential for survival and through selective breeding herd dogs were created. The herding instinct of a Blue Heeler has replaced what was basically the hunting instinct of the wolf. It has been modified over centuries of selective breeding, which indicates that instincts can evolve and/or be altered.

Some other thoughts.

Is it an instinct for a bird to fly?
Does a bird learn how to fly effectively?
Is it an instinct for a wolf to hunt?
Does a wolf learn how to hunt effectively?

If instincts are governed by both brain function and genetics it would appear that a human instinct is one of trying to make life or situations easier through learning and inventing. We are genetically designed for higher learning, adaptation and understanding.

You said - "I think an accurate statement would be that shooting can become an automatic response of the subconscious (requires brain functioning and is learned through experience)."

I TOTALLY agree with that!

I just have a hard time believing we have no instincts or there’s no way we can do something instinctively or do something based on instinct.

As a side note...I want to tell you that I believe you have one of the BEST books out there in regards to archery I have ever read!

Ray    

[BLACK WOLF]

Molson,

I'm glad someone else finds this interesting besides Jay and I  

Ray  

[Black Gold]

Questions for Terry:

On that video where you shoot the 3 arrows at the block target across the yard...

1) what is the distance you are shooting?

2) Do you use a solid anchor point when you shoot or does you finger or hand just come to a postion that mentally triggers your release?

[J-KID]

I think that what all this leads to is:

1. How can we most efficiently transfer what is needed from the conscious to the subconsious so that shooting becomes like a reflex or instinct.

2. Once in the subconscios, how can we make sure we consciously stay out of the shot process so the subconscious can do its job.

When we think too much about the shot process we mess everything up.  The subconscious is much more capable to do most complex tasks than the conscious for the following reason.

Most people don't really know this but humans process information serially in that they can only attend to one thing at a time.  Everyone has read a book while attending to something else and they realize that they have not comprehended a single thing they read.  If we did not process information serially there would be no such thing as attention deficit disorder.  With this in mind, think about all the things one must think about when learning to shoot.  We have to quickly switch our attention to one thing after another through the process.  Once the process has reached the subconscious we can either keep our minds clear or have a single thought.

[GroundHunter]

OK, I looked into a post on instinctive shooting, which is not about what this thread is about, really. No problem with folks having fun on the mental and philosophical gymnastics. It's all fun.

Anybody who wants to learn to shoot well instinctivly will do so by doing - getting the feel, and building that into their form/rythm.

Very few words are involved. I'm a tax attorney, so I have no aversion to words or numbers, but more of them is no help on something like instinctive shooting.

My little brother, Joe, who regularly astonished me at age 11 by consitently hitting a 1.5 inch swinging rubber ball at 20 yards with his 31# Wing, fiberglass arrows, and instinctive snap-shooting says it like this:

1. Fix your entire attention on the spot on the target you intend to hit.

2. Raise your bow and draw with your entire attention so fixed that you are an extension of the arrow.

3. Release upon full draw with your attention so fixed, and keep it so  until the arrow hits the target.

I'd boil it down to "Look, Draw, Hit".

That's really all there is to it for folks who really want to make it happen. So, i consult Joe on my shooting form, and instictive shooting.

Best way to make a good instinctive shooter is to turn a physically talented 11 year old loose with a good bow and arrows, and once he starts hitting the bulls-eye at 10 yards, move him back to 20. Once the "robbin hoods" start busting too many arrows (about three arrows to a kid in in 1962), give him a smaller swinging target.

Finally, I think the shooting in dim light illustrated it best for me. My best instinctive groups have been in dim light where I could not see the arrow, or the bulls-eye, or the arrow even hit. But I could focus on the center of the target. And, i could hear each arrow slap in next to the others. Funny - I shot a 1-inch group on the very X-ring of my rubber deer at about 18 yards. Made me a believer in instictive snap-shooting.

Then, I tried Dick Palmer's shoot as you keep walking back, 'till you miss. I found it's not that unusual to shoot a 4 inch group  of successive arrows at 10, 20, 30 and 40 yards, on the kill zone of my rubber deer. Same for live ones.

Just swinging up, releasing on reaching full draw, all the wile focussing my attention on the spot.

Good luck !

[J-KID]

You are correct GroundHunter.  Words are fun, however, you can learn much more from an 11 year old who can do it.  Your brother would not have understood or cared about the conversation in this post thus far.  What he did care about was getting the arrow where it needed to be.

Your comments reminded me of my oldest daughter who is now married.  When she was 5 she got a BB gun and a bow at Christmas.  It was cold but we took the bow out back and I put a large styrofoam coffe cup upside down for a target.  She had three arrows with rubber blunts and within 5 minutes she was hitting that cup at 10 yards everytime.

It's all about the "faith of a little child" when we get right down to it.  So the bottom line of our discussion is as you say . . .  That was interesting, now, forget all that and just do it.

[oneshot1]

I have never used sights for any amount of time, never used the gap method. Bare fingers, one above one below, I see my target spot and draw, and release. Some have called it a snap-release, when my finger hits the corner of my mouth ,the arrow is on it's way, it seems to me to be forever at draw. I compare it to throwing a base-ball, you look where you want the arrow to go, and let it fly. Instinctive or un-conscious shooting. I also dont spend alot of time worrying about form, I'm locked into the TARGET and my only thought is to get the arrow in the target. Great thread...