JC and Mr Green: Question??

[KSdan]

Been watching your advice to guys on form- you sure sound like you have studied and coached this stuff. Got a question and IT IS NOT BEING CRITICAL!  I am curious.

Question:  I got into trad 20 years ago because it seemed so much like other sports I played like basketball and football (quarterback). I have done reasonably well winning local shoots and harvesting animals (only struggle is animal/target panic-rushing shots).  With that, I was wondering about the technical advice, i.e. stance, shoulder positions etc.  I see what you are all saying, but if this instinctive world is about being fluid, shooting simply, etc.  Like basketball and football, after a few fundamentals- doesn't everybody develop their own form?  Shooting b-ball hoops is not continuously fine tuning technique- at some point it is about shooting enough that your mind and body become one.  The beauty of it is being able to shoot in many positions and off balance, etc.

I really am curious though as your coaching is great- but do we really need to get that technical as hunting archers? I guess I am wondering (after all the stuff on this and other sites). . . are we over-analyzing this and making more of head game out of this than we should??  

Thanks for your time- I keep learning here.

Dan Rudman

[Terry Green]

KS,


 Somehow my points must have been missed along the way.....I'm trying to imply the exact opposite of what you are asking.

Your quote,
"at some point it is about shooting enough that your mind and body become one. The beauty of it is being able to shoot in many positions and off balance, etc."

That's EXACTLY what I am trying to help people achieve. My goal is to make it more simple and less tecnical. I try to make it so there IS less of a head game.  More than once I've asked how satified someone was with their shooting before I commented, cause they were so close I DIDN'T want to put any monsters in their head.

Anylizing things does seem techincal in trying to explain....yet it simplifies the shot.  I try to show that proper alignment makes the shot more simple, yet lets you create various shots in the field when they are offered.

Every sport has fundamentals....just like the sports you mentioned....as does shooting a bow....all those other sports have variations in style....just as us shooters.  Proper alignment is a fundamental, and the most important aspect of shooting a bow IMO.  Achieving proper alignment simplifies the shot and does not make it more technical....and its compatible with one's style as you mentioned.

I think you might be reading more 'technical' into my posts than is really there.  Again, anylizing things may sound over technical, but I'm really trying to simplify the shot.  People come here and ask and show videos, and I try to help them get back to the fundamentals, ....pretty basic, and not over technical IMO.

I cannot tell you how many people have emailed me and said, 'I never knew it could be this easy',....or, ' I never knew it could be this simple'.....

But I can tell you how many people have emailed me,  "this shooting advice you gave me sure is technical".....Zero.

Hope that helps explain what I'm trying to do.

[Ray Hammond]

Terry is one of the best shots on game that I have hunted with...if that is any hint that his approach works, then take it from me..he knows whereof he speaks.

[JC]

Dan, I have no formal training for shooting whatsoever. I am NOT an expert, nor do I play one on TV    . However, I've had so many people say, "I can't believe you shoot like that" that I am willing to share my meager knowledge with any who think it may help. Trust me, there have been multiple angry pm's/emails from people hollering at me that I'm teaching something "wrong"...problem is, those same nay-sayers aren't stepping up to help out...or the info they are giving isn't working for the guys asking me for help. I didn't elect myself as any form critic or shooting expert...I'm just trying to help guys have as much fun hitting what they are aiming at as I do.

That said, I totally, 100% agree that each archer will develope his own  style but the fundamentals of form are mostly static. Do I know exceptions to the fundamentals? Yes, there is a guy I know who shoots pretty darn good with his hand out in front of his face...no anchor at release. But he's the exception to that rule and he also doesn't win the shoots. I'm sure there are other anecdotal references that go against the fundamentals but my point is there are a certain number of form "points" that will make you a better shooter.

My opinions on those fundamentals that vary little are as follows:

Terry's clock pictograph is as simple as it gets, and drives the issue home that you will probably shoot better with proper bone/muscle/arrow/bow alignment.

A consistent anchor is necessary for good accuracy; it's the "rear site" of your aiming system. Doesn't really matter where it is, though some make more sense than others, as long as it's the same every time.

Back tension, for both the bow arm and drawing arm are necessary for best accuracy. A complete, push/pull muscle reaction throughout the entire shot and  followthrough  with the major muscles of the upper back.

Relaxed hook/drawing hand is necessary for the cleanest release.

A practiced aiming system: gap, "instictive", split vision, whatever...if you aren't using a pin/sight, you have to hone it over many, many shots to make it accurate.

There are more, and nuances of each that are not mentioned, but these things listed simply don't change with the best shooters. Can you shoot good without form that fits into this mold? Yes, but I'll bet you can shoot better by following the "fundamentals".

Style to me equates to the minor nuances of each of these fundamentals. Where you anchor and for how long is "style"....that you anchor consistently under every circumstance is the fundamental. That you shoot straight up or leaned over parallel to the ground is "style"...that you have your body in proper bone/arrow etc. alignment is the fundamental.

To me, I love to shoot accurately. As a hunter, I try to shoot as accurately as I can to cleanly take the animals I hunt. Accurate shooting and hunting are not mutally exclusive...on the contrary, the best shots I know are also very deadly on game. Universally, those guys all have similar fundamentals, though may vary widely with the style they implement them.

Does that make any sense?

[JC]

Sorry T, you were posting while I was writing.  

[AllenR]

In every sport there are basic things that you have to do to accomplish your goal.

To shoot a free throw, you have to have the ball, you have to be at the line and you have to throw the ball toward the hoop.

Likewise in archery, there are a few basics, you have to have a stance, you have to hold the bow with the arrow, you  have to point the bow at a target, you have to draw the bow and you have to release.

There are almost as many ways to accomplish these basics are there are archers.  But there are certain ways to accomplish them that are more comfortable, less likely to injure, and more likely to be accurate.

From what I read of Terry & Joe's posts, they are trying to help us find the easiest way to accomplish the basics with the greatest likelyhood of success.

You ask if good form is necessary for success.  No, it's not, but if you want to achieve your maximum potential, it is where you have to start.  After you learn good form, then you will likely find variations that work better for you.

The best Olympic Recurve shooters are taught form over everything else.  Even during execution of their shots, they are taught to mentally focus on form over aiming.  However, this is probably not the best way to do it for the typical bowhunter, but it may give you an idea of how important form is.

The techniques that Terry & Joe post will get you started and take you as far as most bowhunters want to go and them some.  After that, you will have to get a coach who can spot the little things that will help you.  

Archery appears simple and it is if you learn to do it right.  Like all things, learning to do the basic right will make you much more successful in the long run.

My sincere thanks go to Terry and Joe for their help here.

Regards,
Allen

[KSdan]

Thanks so much guys- Great responses!  Appreciate the input- particularly breaking down how you guys see the fundamentals. Like I started- my question was not a criticism.

It does seem to me that a lot of people are always trying something new.  Though some of that makes sense- it also makes sense that at some point I have to be confident in what I am doing- this plays into the key mental part of this entire equation.

You guys are right on.  You ought to write a book together.

Thanks Much
Dan

[keith brimmer]

I thinki know what ksdan is saying.ishot for 3 years without knowing what form was,i basicaly had to start over .i studied terrys clock and followed post from jc and vermonster,molson and terry for months, my shooting improved but the monster (as terry has so aptly named it) was there at times. it wasnt always fun ive practised and practised my form.finaly just yesterday it came together,i shot 3 d and i didnt think about fundimentals i just shot the target focusing on where i wanted to hit. my score went up 35 points close to where my goal for the year is. im not satisfied but d#mn i had fun.yeah what terry and jc said it is easy you just have to put all the pieces together and work hard. thanks guys your help is much appre
ciated
keith

[Str8Shooter]

I see how someone could thing that some technical information is irrelevant but if the goal is a really seamless, accurate shot it's of the utmost importance. I was a state level athlete in high school and a Division 1 athlete in college (hammer throw). In training, specifically in college, it was pounded into my head that in any sport to exceed the foundation and form must be the main focus. It's what separates the best from the average. My coach in college got to train with the current world record holder in the hammer throw. He showed me video footage where the guy spent 75-80% of his time doing drills/ form work and the rest throwing.
  Now, I know that archery is a different sport but I've always tried to follow the same ideology. The way I see it if an aspect of the form is lagging it will only hurt the shot. Only when all the components are at an equal level will the shot be truly effortless.

Chris

[KSdan]

guys-also chek out the post "Form"  I think it is a similar quesiton to mine.

Thanks again-
Dan
(down over the rainbow in KS   )

[Terry Green]

No worries JC....glad you posted all that you did.

Like Joe, I never had any coaching either, nor do I claim to be an 'expert'. I just like to help other's improve, and I like seeing other's shoot well and have more fun.  I get just as excited when I watch my huntin buds make great shots as I do if I'd have made them.  I like watching guys put arrows where they want them at will......cause I know how they feel when they do, and that's a big reason we do what we do.

A house can have many different styles....but the foundation is what makes the house sound.

A shooter can have many different styles....but the foundation is what makes the shot sound.

How's that for low tech?  

[Guru]

Very well said guys