Bare Shaft Planing adviceI

[Herry]

I'm trying to bare shaft plane some arrows according to OL Adcock's website instructions.

Some details about my setup: I'm pulling 54# @ 27" on a takedown R/D Longbow. For hunting, I have Carbon Express 250's and they are still at full length (32.5").  I'm using a 50 grain brass insert and 125 grain field point because this is the combo that will get me up over 500 grains total and that's been my goal for an elk and deer hunting arrow.  I plan on shooting 125 grain magnus stingers at elk and deer.

So according to OL's instructions, I've stripped three arrows bare and am shooting groups with them alongside 3 fletched shafts.  The results have me scratching my head.

I can shoot fine groups with the fletched shafts although it seems as if they should be cut shorter. I'm prepared to do that but cannot tell if they really NEED it because the bare shafts don't group consistently right, left, up or down from the fletched shafts. I'll admit that the bare shafts do not group as tightly but they aren't behaving like OL says I should expect so I don't know what to do.  The only thing that the bare shafts do consistently is hit into the target with a nock high position. The nock is always higher than the point.  OL says that's not what I should be looking at so I don't know what else to do.  These arrows have to be too long, wouldn't you arrow experts think?

Has anyone had any experiences like this? I'm just not seeing any patterns in the groups that indicate a change should be made (except the nock high position). But I cannot believe from everything I've read that I got that lucky and got a perfectly matched set of shafts, inserts, tips, and bow on the first attempt.  Is there any other trick I can try in order to figure out how much my shafts should be cut down?  

Any insight would be appreciated.  

Thanks.

[Al Dean]

Sound like you need to lower your nock point.  When you get the point of nock low you have gone to far and need to come up some.  But if you are getting the results you said at 30 yds or more don't change anything.  I do my final testing bare shaft at 30 yards or more.

[R H Clark]

Don't cut them yet.I know a shorter 250 would be too stiff.I am not sure if they are stiff now because of the length.If they are stiff they are bounceing off your riser and will give a false reading.

How far are you shooting your groups?

Sometimes you can shoot a bareshaft from 25 or 30 yards to get a better idea what it is doing.

[Herry]

thanks. i've been shooting at 10 and 15 yards. i'll move back and see how it goes.

[jhansen]

According to the charts, you should be shooting 150's.  I shoot a Hill style longbow of 55#@28" and I'm getting great arrow flight with 150's cut to 29".

John

[Herry]

I'm using the Carbon Express 2007 Arrow guide. And after reading your comment, I can see how my arrow is too long and needs to be cut down to somewhere between 27 and 30 inches. I will start with 30 and work down from there if necessary. However after looking at it again, I don't see how 150's at 29 inches is right for you. Is the chart that wrong?  It says at 29 inches you should be shooting 250's.  Something I don't understand about the chart?

[jhansen]

http://www.3riversarchery.com/pdf/CarbonExpressChart.pdf

Herry,
I think the above link will take you to the chart I looked at.  It's on the 3-Rivers website.  250's are stiffer than 150's.  Keep in mind that as you shorten an arrow it gets "stiffer".  That may be why your 250's at full length are flying okay.  If you shorten them they may become too stiff for your bow.  In my case, 150's cut back to 29" using a 125 grain point are a good match.  I suspect they would be for you too.  I know that's not good news because you have already invested in the 250's.  My suggestion would be to keep them long and add point weight if necessary to get good arrow flight.  That and dropping your brace height as low as possible to get the longest power stroke are variables that you can work with.

John

[R H Clark]

Jhansen is giving you good advise.If you cut thoes 250's they will be too stiff.

Screw on a 190grn head and shoot some bareshafts from 25 yards just to watch their flight.For a right hand shooter if the shaft flys to the right with the nock pointing left it is weak.If it flys left with nock right it is stiff.

The 190 tip will give you the max to weaken that shaft.if it showes consistent weak like 10 shots in a row then you can lower tip weight untill you get straight flight.

I can see more by shooting a bareshaft at longer distance.An arrow out of spine will curve enough at 25 yards to miss a 4X4 foot target.However a bareshaft will show ALL an archers problems of form and release.I have found that whatever distance an archer can shoot a good grope of feathered shafts is probably the distance he needs to shoot bareshafts.

[Herry]

Thanks for the advice, guys. I do appreciate it.  I must be reading that dang chart wrong and could use some clarification. The way it looks to me, for the 50 - 55 pound draw weight range the 250's should be the right shaft if cut to anywhere between 29 and 32. I thought that's what it means   with the 250 in the column for each of those arrow lengths in the row for 50 - 55 pounds?  That's how I'm reading it and that must be incorrect to come to a different conclusion than you guys have on your own.  

I hope I don't sound like I'm arguing or am not appreciative of the advice. I'm just trying to explain how I got confused. I normally prefer learning on my own but in this case I obviously need someone to help me read the chart.

I do understand the concepts of shorter = stiffer dynamic spine and how CE's numbering system works. 350's are the stiffest, 150's the least stiff. But that chart has thrown me for a loop.

Thanks, again.

[R H Clark]

Herry,I understand the confusion.I've never even looked at the chart so couldn't tell you much about that.My experience is from testing about a dozen different bows myself and I hang out with John at Sipsey River Archery.I've been around when he helped a dozen more bareshaft arrows.

I would think it would be hard to tell from a chart because so many factors determine the right shaft.Draw length,arrow length,point weight,degree of center cut on the bow,how fast the bow shoots,what kind of string,what kind of string silencers,even how you release.

The reason I say play with them a little before you cut them or only cut one is that carbons respond much better to length change than point weight to change the spine.Only cut a little at a time like 1/4 inch.you can always cut more but you can't put it back.