Instinctive Shooting

[Terry Green]

Originally posted by LCB:
[qb]

So what your saying is that any archer can be just as good as the next guy by just applying himself more, and that natural ability plays no real factor.
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Nope....this is what I said...


quote:
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 If anyone wants to improve, no matter their God given level of ability, they have to apply themselves
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Now that words are being put in my mouth, I'll bow out....and leave ya with this....

One bad shot is worse than 50 good ones.

[BobCo 1965]

I'm curious, what is the measure of a good shot if it's not hitting what you are aiming at?

Just so we are clear, I am not talking about hunting, rather practice sessions.

When workng on an aspect of form, for me anyway, my focus shifts to that specific aspect I am working on without complete focus on the target. I may have a target that I am shooting at, but if my shot is not accurate, I would not necessarily consider it a bad shot.

I would say the measure of the "good shot" in this instance would be more in line on if I was able to accomplish what I was intending to correct or "burn in". Basically I'd call it a good shot and a worthy shot if I did what I was intending to do.

Just as I would call it a good shot if I put the arrow right in the bullseye (or close) if I was practicing accuracy.

[JC]

Gotcha. Would it be safe to assume then that when not working on form, whether specific aspect or as a whole, the measure of a good shot is hitting what you are aiming at?

Do you think it's possible to both work on form AND have an accurate shot at the same time?

I believe some of the differences in these discussions is a distinct difference in shooting styles. For me, the aiming process is as much a part of the form/shot whatever as any of the actual mechanics. I cannot seperate them and therefore have difficulty in understanding the semantics of those that do. To me, if I miss (by more than an "acceptable amount"), my form was off....bad shot. If I hit, my form was good....good shot.

[BobCo 1965]

Gotcha. Would it be safe to assume then that when not working on form, whether specific aspect or as a whole, the measure of a good shot is hitting what you are aiming at?

Yup, see the last sentence in my last post.

 

Do you think it's possible to both work on form AND have an accurate shot at the same time?

Sure, I think it would depend on the person and probably on the aspect trying to be corrected or practiced.

Personally, I feel like whenever I am trying to practice something on form though, my mind detours from the spot I want to hit (the concentration level on the target may be slight or large). But, I loose some concentration on the target to some degree. Knowing my limitations in not being able to keep the same concentration levels on target when working on form helps me not to loose confidence or become discouraged in my abilities if my shot is not dead center.

[AllenR]

Originally posted by JC:

Do you think it's possible to both work on form AND have an accurate shot at the same time?

I don't think so.  That would require you to focus on two things at once and the human mind isn't capable of that.

Aiming by whatever means you are using requires mental focus on aiming and that lets the execution of the shot run subconsciously.  

Working on form requires mental focus on whatever it is that you are trying to improve or correct.

If you try to split focus between aiming and form, you are not doing either one as well as possible.

[JC]

Originally posted by BobCo 1965:
Personally, I feel like whenever I am trying to practice something on form though, my mind detours from the spot I want to hit (the concentration level on the target may be slight or large). But, I loose some concentration on the target to some degree. Knowing my limitations in not being able to keep the same concentration levels on target when working on form helps me not to loose confidence or become discouraged in my abilities if my shot is not dead center.

Again, I think there is the difference of shooting styles. When you practice form and you are focusing on say your release, aren't you also trying to keep good form with your bow arm? I would think you can indeed work on multiple aspects of your form at one time, because you are not forgetting about bow arm form while working on the release. To me, the aiming/concentrating is just as much of form as the release or bow arm etc. I don't "disconnect" one to work on the others.

[JC]

Originally posted by AllenR:
I don't think so.  That would require you to focus on two things at once and the human mind isn't capable of that.

Aiming by whatever means you are using requires mental focus on aiming and that lets the execution of the shot run subconsciously.  

Working on form requires mental focus on whatever it is that you are trying to improve or correct.

If you try to split focus between aiming and form, you are not doing either one as well as possible.

Guess we'll just have to disagree on that one, cause for me, it's certainly possible.

[LCB]

Didn't mean to put words into anyones mouth.

Honestly I felt like I was attacked from the get go here. I tried to explain what I meant by "one well thought out good shot" being better than flinging 50 arrows. I never said not to practice, I just wanted folks to practice right, not just shoot 50 arrows for the sake of reaching that number. I would expect that most folks who enjoy this sport shoot more than 50 arrows a day, and I agreed that practice was essential for improveing. Immediately my post was picked apart and I felt once again like I don't have the qualifications to post my opinion here.

Sorry if I offended anyone today. Those truely weren't my intentions.

[AllenR]

Originally posted by JC:
 When you practice form and you are focusing on say your release, aren't you also trying to keep good form with your bow arm?

JC, I'm far from the best shot here, but I was taught how to practice by Len Cardinale.  What he taught me makes sense and it's worked for me when I still had training wheels on my bow.

When you are practicing, you work on and focus on one thing at a time.  In your example, if you are working on your hand, focus on the hand alone through the entire shot, and not on anything else.  You want to make a good shot, but don't worry about what is happening to your bow arm.  Address that on the next arrow.  This is the means of taking your form to the subconscious level.

There are some who are gifted with extrodinary hand eye coordination.  These archers can make an accurate shot from nearly any position with minimal practice.  I'm not one of those and I think that most archers are not in that catagory.  I have to practice form until I've got it down on a subconscious level.

Only then can I trust my shot.

[BobCo 1965]

When you practice form and you are focusing on say your release, aren't you also trying to keep good form with your bow arm?

No, personally, I would not be thinking about my bowarm if I was working on my release.

If my bowarm needed work, I'd work on it seperately on another day.

 

To me, the aiming/concentrating is just as much of form as the release or bow arm etc.

I think the same way. And when I work on accuracy which is pretty much every other practice session, my other areas are already burnt in (hopefully) so I don't have to think about them at all. Only the target gets the full concentration.

[JC]

LCB, no offense taken here. I think it's just some communication difficulties between those of different trains of thought. My belief is "one well thought out shot" teaches me very little. 25, and I use that number arbitrarily, well practised shots teach me a lot, 50 of the same teaches me more, 100 etc. etc.

In no other sport that I can think of do you do something just a little. My sons go to private baseball coaching. In the cages, they'll swing well over 100 times at live balls, trying to hit every time. The coaches point out after every swing the form corrections and they try it on the next swing...but they don't stop foot position work to concentrate on hand position, or bat position, or head position etc....it's all worked on at the same time. I've seen this in every sport I can think of...working on mechanics as a whole instead of seperately....because that's the way they are used. Though it may not work for some, it certainly works...as convincingly as the "seperation" method does with you.

AllenR, ahh yes, Len Cardinale. A superb coach I hear, with many years of history and credentials to back it up. I have known a few who learned from him, and all felt as you do...his teaching is obviously consistent. However, it's not the only way to go about developing an accurate shot. Again, just a matter of some folks doing it differently...I don't think you need to seperate those mechanics or precesses out to work on them. You can, or at least I can and whole bunch I know can, work on them as a collective. To me, it's not possible to make a good shot and not worry about what is happening with your bow arm...if you drop your bow arm, it's not going to go where it should therefore it cannot be a good shot. But maybe that's just because of the way I shoot, and learned how to shoot.

[Rabbit Stew]

Alright apart from the uhh war weve got goin here lol im taking alot of this advice in and actualy getting pretty decent results. I love how sometimes when you shoot an arrow in the gold and stare at its nock you can land another arrow right beside it sometimes.

[Roger Norris]

Rabbit Stew - Ignore the friendly debate, but absorb the knowledge...these guys have all shot for awhile, and I know for sure at least some of them are darned GOOD at it. The fact that there even is a debate tells us that there is more than one way to skin this cat.

Try a couple of things, create a training regimen for yourself. Heres what I do, at least a couple times a week:

Stand it front of a large target, close your eyes, and work on your form. Think about everything...your bow hand gripping the bow consistently, your fingers grabbing the string the same way, your anchor, your release.

Then step back further. Maybe 15 yards. Focus on a spot...bore a hole through it. Shoot. This is where you find out how long it is natural for you to hold. It's different for everyone.

Then step back to FURTHER than you are comfortable with. For me thats about 40 yards. This is where you realy watch the arrows fly. Any weakness in your form will show up here.

Do this a couple times a week...maybe the whole process is 20 arrows, maybe 50. Don't shoot anymore when your focus starts to wander, or your muscles are tired. Thats where the bad habits creep in.

Enjoy the process. Shooting a sightless bow well is a great feeling.

[Roger Norris]

P.S. - spend some time studying Terry's "Form Clock"...it's excellent.

[LCB]

Do this a couple times a week...maybe the whole process is 20 arrows, maybe 50. Don't shoot anymore when your focus starts to wander, or your muscles are tired. Thats where the bad habits creep in

Roger thank you. Maybe it didn't come across as I intended but the above quote is what I meant by "ONE ARROW" the number was irrelivent. I was trying to explain that at first sometimes fewer shots using proper form is better than a bunch of sloppy ones. "one" was taken literally, and that was not my intention.

JC you have supplied some valuable information in this post, and I agree that repetition builds a good platform. I myself shoot hundreds of arrows a week, constantly trying perfect my form, but I had to build up to this level of shooting and avoid injury along the way. Ya'll have a nice evening.

[JC]

Originally posted by Roger Norris:
The fact that there even is a debate tells us that there is more than one way to skin this cat.

And that, Rabbit Stew, is exactly the reason for this type of debate (certainly not war). I think it's important for newcomers to understand there are many paths to the same destination in traditional archery....you just need to find the right one for you. Trying multiple things until you develop and really "know" your shot is a great way to learn. Taking bits and pieces of advice from multiple shooters, keeping what works for you, discarding what doesn't is often the nature of the journey.

If you get the chance to do a short video of yourself from both sides, behind, and overhead while shooting, I'm confident the feedback you would get on this forum will do wonders for speeding up your learning curve...no matter how many or few arrows we tell you to shoot    You may want to check out the numerous form videos already posted to get an idea of how it should (and sometimes shouldn't) look.

Good luck, enjoy the journey and remember there's no good reason to get frustrated if you hit a wall, lots of great folks willing to help out here on Tradgang.