gap vs. instinctive at longer ranges? your thoughts!

[deermaster1]

can a well trained, well practiced instinctive shooter(no concions reference, concentrates on the spot he wants to hit and nothing more) compare with a strict gap shooter of the same skill out past 30 yards?  i am not a very good shot and would like some opinions on this.  please do not turn this into an argument of what is instinctive shooting and that nobody is truly instictive.  what i mean by instinctive is a person, through lots of practice, has ingrained the shot process to the point it is instinct and no referance is needed.  only the spot he or she wants to hit.  thanks for any info! please speak your opinions!

[Tom A]

How far past 30 are you talking about?

My opinion says yes at 30 maybe at 35 but further than that, the instinctive shooter would have to be one of legendary status to compete with top point of aim/stringwalkers/gap system shooters at 40-100 yards.

[deermaster1]

i was thinking 30-50 yards.

[Scott J. Williams]

I would have to say yes, the reasons are as follows;  The process of shooting instinctively can be discribed as a natural pointing of the bow hand.  Through practice, that allows the brain to program the position of the bow arm in relationship to the flight of the arrow, not where the arrow is pointing, in other words not using the arrow as a reference.  That is why so many instinctive archers love bright feathers, it makes them easier to see, and therefore the brain is better able to add imput.  

It would require the archer to have spent sometime shooting the bow over those distances to a point where that information would be processed by the brain.  It is total garbage when some one says they can shoot well at forty yards when there practice has only been at fifteen. There is a learning curve.

The archer would then focus on the the target, the brain would direct the hand to correct placement(point)and the shot would be executed, based again on the imput from haveing seen the flight of the arrow over that particular distance.

I am by no means a great shot, but I have been told that I am a good shot.  I have shot consistantly well at distances measured to 45 and 55 yards. It does require additional concentration at those distances, as  an instinctive archer must be able to focus on the smallest spot on that target he wishes to hit.

I have been told by some very, very, good gap shooters that their system breaks down when the distances exceed the point where the arrow can be pointed under the spot to be hit, or the point on distance has been exceeded.  From that point forward, it is "Kentucky Windage".

As you can see, both systems has it's draw backs,  and to tell you the truth, for hunting in most cases it is six in one hand, half dozen in the other.  

Gap shooting really shines on the 3D and target courses, where 10's and 12 rings are king.  For me, I will continue to shoot them in the 8's, with an ocassional 10 or 12, that is the kill on the real thing anyway. Isn't that what we are trying to do?

Just for the record, make mine instinctive.....

[Tom A]

Marked or un marked yardage could play a big role in a shoot out like this too.

[swampbuck]

If folks would worry more about how they shoot vs how they aim they'd progress faster IMHO anyway.

Getting your shot down with proper form that can be repeated over and over till your blue in the face is what it takes to be a good shot how a fella aims it is up to them and quite frankly both roads seem to end in the same place if you ask me.After awhile the gap shooter doesn't notice the arrow and after awhile the instinctive shooter does if only in their subconsious.I've gone down both rds and thats how it seems to have worked out for me in the end it's the same thing and we just like to talk about or worse for some silly reason.

Shoot the way "you" get the most enjoyment if it doesn,t get you as good as you'd like ask for help with an open mind

As for the answer to your ?? if your gonna score it and really thats the only way you can legitimately compare than the fella that has a good aiming system will win....ask the world champs which way consistantly brings home the gold

[BLACK WOLF]

"Can a well trained, well practiced instinctive shooter compare with a strict gap shooter of the same skill out past 30 yards?"

If you really want to find the answer to your question research what happens in competition during Field Events where the target distances vary from short to long and find who typically wins and what their aiming techiniques are...otherwise you will just end up with opinions.

Most of my research tells me that most Field Events are won where the archer was using some conscious aiming techinique.

The fact is...Instinctive Aiming requires more hand and eye coordination, proprioceptive awareness and natural ability to achieve the same level of accuracy as the other aiming techiniques...especially at longer distances.

Each aiming techinique will have it's advantages and disadvantages based on human capability...and aiming Instinctively isn't an advantage at longer distances for the average or even most archers.

If we were perfect beings...it wouldn't matter what aiming techinique we used...but the fact is we're not. We make mistakes and we are faliable and Instinctive Aiming has a higher margin of error the further the distance is.

Don't get me wrong...I love Instinctive Aiming. When it is mastered...it has an almost magic like feel to it. A feeling of total oneness with the bow and arrow when your hitting your target.

I just feel and believe that if an archer wants to compete in target archery where the targets are set at longer distances, they would be better off learning a conscious aiming techinique rather than trying to master Instinctive Aiming for that specific purpose.

As swampbuck stated...form should be learned and mastered first so the chosen aiming techinique will be easier to learn.

Ray  

[Scott J. Williams]

Well Black Wolf,

I can agree with some of what you stated, but from a person who shot field for nearly ten years using pins, barebow, and later with a recurve instinctive we have to part ways.

I have seen guys who could shoot the eyes out of a knat at thirty yards with a compound bow and pins, fall apart when they had to shoot sixty yards, even when they had a pin set for it.

They also had a tough time with the 52 yard makes and the 17 yard marks.  The only thing they needed was time on the range at those distances to get it together.

Why would it be any different for another shooting method, such as instinctive.  Heck! I am a bowhunter first, but shooting 17 or 18 on a 50 - 55 yard field face is not that difficult for me.  It is  because I practice that distance, not for hunting, but because the yearly competition through between Police Departments requires that kind of skill,as we shoot as we shoot a 900 round or Field round, a 300 indoor, and 30 3D animals.  

I assure you, I have no idea of what my point on distance is.  I don't shoot a gap, I don't have a split vision system.  Do these methods work, you bet they do, and in most cases guys and gals who have worked hard to get this down, will be nearly impossible to beat.

Now flip it a bit,  that same guy who kicks my butt on a known distance 900 round, or field round, is not as competitive when we are both at unknown distances.  Even if those distances are in the 35 to 55 yard range.  

Add to the mix, that it is a one shot per target, now things began to get even more interesting, because there is no, "fire for effect" thing going on.  He will have to effectively judge his distance, and I will have to let my subconcious mind do it for me.

As an instinctive shooter, I will stand here and state to the world, a good gap shooter, if they know the distance, will beat a very good instinctive shooter 9 out of 10 times.

Having said that, the other factors, factors that come into play when we are hunting.  Dealing with unfamilar terrain, dips, hills, uneven footing, etc...the gap, no pun intended is not as great between even a great gap shooter and a good instinctive shooter.

Oh by the way, you stated that....
 Instinctive Aiming requires more hand and eye coordination, proprioceptive awareness and natural ability to achieve the same level of accuracy as the other aiming techiniques...especially at longer distances.

The ability to walk and chew gum, to point at an object, to tip your head back and touch your nose is all the physical coordination one needs to be successful shooting a bow instinctive.

What it does take and time, and effort.  It takes the desire not to get discouraged, and not to listen to those who say it can't be done as well or as quickly as another way.

I would rather be a person who encourages a person, rather than do the opposite. The method you choose is your choice, and the reasons you select it should be your own. I am confident enough to say that what I do works for me, it is not done to impress, or to show off. I do it because I enjoy it and for me it is very effective.

This has been a very interesting thread,  it will not solve anything, or answer many questions.  Whatever method you choose, put in the time, and hit the spot, and enjoy yourself. Don't let that factor out of what you do with the stick and string, enjoyment!

[swampbuck]

Scott perhaps you should enter some comps useing the instinctive method of aiming.Make them IBO style so it's more to what you say evens things out taking away the advantage an aiming method.

My money goes on the aiming method not that there is anything wrong with shooting instinctively I enjoy it myself but I'm playing the odds of the average Joe whom if they realized that their point on was around 50-55yrds could also shoot 17 or 18 on that target even if they didn,t think they looked at their arrow to know it was point on...the mind knows

on average an aiming system wins the majority of the time like BW suggested do some research and find out for yourself...real comps not message boards like this.Look up the NFAA results there out there ask Larry Yien 4 time world champ or Rod Jenkins another world champ...

Shoot how you enjoy shooting oops I ment aim how you enjoy aiming.....I still say learn to shoot first than the aiming part will be much easier

[BLACK WOLF]

Scott,

Like I and swampbuck stated...a person should do the research and look at the statistics to see what the evidence says if they are really looking for facts rather than opinions.

If you take 2 archer's of equal skill. One aiming Gap and the other aiming Instinctively. They are going to both shoot pretty much the same because they share similar skill levels.

The only difference to me is...that one is harder than the other to master and/or correct errors. All one has to do is teach a group of kids to see what aiming techiniques excell in developing accuracy more quickly.

With Gap Aiming...if the archer misses 3" low he immediately knows how much he needs to decrease his gap to hit the bullseye...whereas an Instinctive Archer has to hope that his subconscious will recognize what it needs to do.

Being a good shot often involves also being good at judging distance and every one has to judge distance. It's just that some archers will judge distance by feel (instinctively) while others will do it analytically (consciously)...and again...the advantage with correcting yardage estimation goes to the Gap Shooter.

You said - "The ability to walk and chew gum, to point at an object, to tip your head back and touch your nose is all the physical coordination one needs to be successful shooting a bow instinctive."

Well...just about anyone can also play basketball or golf...but there are only going to be a handfull who can play like Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods and consistantly win competitions. I don't care how passionate someone is about a sport....try as they might...not everyone will be capable of achieving legend type status.

My job as a fitness trainer is to encourage, motivate and guide people into achieving their goals...but it is also my job to help them be realistic.

I'm not going to tell someone they can have a body like Cindy Crawford or Arnold Schwarzenegger if they don't have the frame to pull it off but I will support and push them into becoming the best that they can be. I won't forsake being realistic for fear of discouraging someone. Ignoring facts just to be encouraging isn't the answer in my book. Being realistic often motivates those that have to work harder...work even harder.

Ray  

[Scott J. Williams]

Well guys it is clear we are beating a dead horse, I am a Martial Art Instructor, Defensive Tactics Instructor, a Houston Detective, and a bowhunter. I can tell  you this, we are not talking about becoming Jordan or Woods, the man asked a question and I expressed my opinion. I stated before that my opinion and one dollar and fifty cents will get you a cup of coffee at MacDonalds.

I am not touting instinctive shooting, I am saying that you should not discount the fact that average people, people on this site can do exactly what was asked.  

Swamp, I have competed in IBO, ASA, events and won my share...That proves nothing.  I have been around this stuff for over forty years, I am 52, back when it wasn't traditional, but bowhunting.

I understand realistic, I also understand that people can do far more than they expect, with some effort and hard work.  The fact that this is a method of shooting that requires more effort to become skillful at is no reason to shy away from it.  If you want to make it really realistic, tell them to get a compound, a sight, a release aid, and that they can kill a deer with as little as a week of practice, that is realistic, but not a way I would choose.  

Oh, by the way, being unrealistic in my job will get someone hurt or killed.  I have been training people to do things they didn't believe they could do for years.  

Just my opinion, Nuff Said.

[BLACK WOLF]

That's just it...I NEVER said it was impossible...I just basically said it was going to require more effort, more hand and eye coordination, more proprioceptive awareness and more natural ability to achieve the same level of accuracy as the other aiming techiniques...especially at longer distances.

Ray  

[Scott J. Williams]

Black Wolf,

I agree!  I guess we were saying the same thing all along.  Let me add this, if the target games are the focus, then most would be better of with the Gap or similar system.  

Bowhunting, in particular, traditional bowhunting should be about a balance, between the shooting skills, woodsmanship meaning the ability to understand the games habits, habitat, stand placement, and being able to use those things to get close.  Having hunted out west, south, middle west(Michigan, IL)and now Texas, I have no need to shoot in excess of thirty yards.

Forgive for being son dense....Good Hunting, and Good shooting...

[BLACK WOLF]

Scott,

No problem. One thing I do know is that the internet isn't necessarily the best way to communicate....and you're right...we definitely agree on this subject.  

Ray  

[BLACK WOLF]

Bottom line...it's the archer that has the limitations...NOT the aiming techinique.

Like Terry said...Instinctive Aiming isn't limited to 10, 20 or 30yrds....Again I believe it's the archer that is limited to what they can do with it, which is why an aiming techinique will often prove to be more advantageous than another based on the individual archer and the specific situation.

I'm like swampbuck...I support ALL the different aiming techiniques and will defend a person's right to choose whatever aiming techinique they feel is more suited for them...but I also have no problem discussing the different advantages and disadvantages of the different aiming techiniques to help guide archers in making as educated a decision as they can in what aiming techinique they would like to pursue.

I'm not going to suggest that an archer learn to Facewalk or Stringwalk if their goal is to hunt pheasants on the wing and running rabbits...which is no different when someone doesn't suggest learning to aim Instinctively if the archer's goal is to compete in archery tournaments where the targets range anywhere from 5 yrds. to 90yrds. or more...but if that is their goal...I'll support them and guide them in the fundamentals as best as I can to help them strive to achieve that goal.

I personally don't think anything more or less of someone based on their chosen aiming techinique. Life is too short to be passing judgment upon some based on what aiming techinique they are using.

Ray  

[Doug Deese]

Everyone is 100% correct!  All of the advantages and disadvantages of both methods and the amount of perfect practice that it takes to perform these styles.  The mental training of different targets at different/odd distances.  These are all very important parts of archery (target/3-d/Hunting).  In the last 27 or so years I have remained open minded and allowed myself to learn every thing about what we do.  Whether it was a compound(with/without) sights right or left handed, fingers or release.  Recurve, longbow, self bows  using three fingers under or mediteranian release: wood, carbon aluminum arrows.  I have used the gap method and instinctive method for hunting and high levels of competition.  

What I have done and am very proud of today is that I have used all of the advantages of everything that has been mentioned and put them together and practice a lot to train your minds eye and muscle memory.  If I am in a tournament or hunting and the target/animal is very close (less than 10 yds) I will use three fingers under the arrow come to full draw, put the tip of the arrow on the smallest spot I can find/imagine in the kill area and release.  It is very dependable even on very small targets especially when you are excited and not mentally prepared.  From 10-25 yds I will shoot instinctive especially if the target/animal is moving/inflight.  Beyond 25 yds I will gap shoot because it is more accurate.  If you gap shoot you will have to judge yardage better or use a range finder.  

I have noticed that after mixing these styles over the years I can now simply look at the arrow or not when I shoot depending on the situation.  It takes a lot of practice using all styles/methods to pull this off but it is a deadly combo.  When I gap shoot my minds(instinctive) eye is evaluating the sight picture.  If I shoot instinctively my minds eye pays close attention to the gap without me actually looking at it.  Its like a safety back up system that gives you the red or green light to release the arrow.  

If you notice a lot of the legends mix different methods.  Howard Hill and Byron Furgeson will come to full draw for several seconds to allow their minds eye to make any adjustments before a very difficult needle threading shot.  I saw a picture of Fred bear shooting disc from the air with sticks in the ground keeping is feet(form) positioned properly for those difficult shots.  I think that these guys have a natural gift, but they also use a mixed bag of tricks to what they do so well.

As stated earlier,  I think everyone should consider trying every  method and mix them if need be.  The important thing is to "Spare No Expense In Time And Effort To Find A Style That Works For You.  Keep track of your disadvantages and work on them on e at a time.  I dont know if this helped or made things worse, but it was worth a try......>>>>---AKbearb8--->