Help: spine, porpoise

[Matt Green]

 Rookie & new to tradgang.  Appreciate help/suggestions.  Have a 58inch 42# 1pc Blk Widow Recurve (i pull ~28").  Have bare-shafted Gold Tip Entrada 600's.  Could cut no more and they still showed barely weak.  Adjusted nock for level (achieved).  I assumed fletching would take care of slight weakness - WRONG.  Am having consistent porpoising.  Ferg's book said to add string silencers (didn't help - even added leaches next to puffs).  Ferg also said incr brace ht (moved to max for the bow - didn't solve it).  Have not tried dacron (vs.FF) which might help. I don't want to decr pt wt b/c the shoots i attend require 125 (my current).  I don't have a scale but but a rough est is my arrows weigh less than 300.  I am considreing buying a dz entrada 500's or beman ventures (spined 500). The 500's would make a 328g arrow and the ventures would be 356 and the only ones to get me > 8gr/lb (which i think i should do).  I shot some 3555's i use with my Bob lee and they show stiff. Any suggestions or thoughts? (sorry to be so long-winded)
VERY much enjoying the site - tons to learn from the vetrans!!
Matt Green

[drewsbow]

If its up and down movement its nock point or also could be your release . I would look at nock fit on the string also , if they are tight it will screw you up bad .hope this helps :0)

[STEVE R.]

I have some gt 600's and at your wt and draw you should be fine. I shoot 30.5 600's out of a 41 lb widow at 30" and they shoot fine. Check your nock try about 9/16" to 5/8" above the square.

[Shawn Leonard]

I used to shoot a 42# Widow SA and those 600s even at 28"s with 125 up front will be a week, I am sure a carbonwood 2000s with 175 grains up front and cut to 29"s will be about perfect for ya. Up and down flight can be your nocks as drew said or the braceheight or nocking point. Gety some 2000s either the Blackhawk Vapors or the Carbonwoods and you will be right there. Shawn

[Matt Green]

Thanks a lot for the replies.  I played a bit this pm - The nock and my relese seem to be the culprit.  I have found - a) setting nock pt bare shafting may need adjusting once fletched and b) lighter arrows are far more tempermental!  I also shot some 3 under instead of split and got much better flight.  I may try some helical fletching to see if that helps - am currenlty offset about 3degrees.
Again, thanks
Matt Green

[Matt Green]

You guys with the widows - what advice you have for dampening noise??  Seems loud compared to my Bob Lee (its 49lbs with heavier arrows).
thanks
matt Green

[STEVE R.]

my set up is dead quiet. I HAVE A 64"PMA,WITH 4 SPIDER SCILENCERS. I USE SOME STRIPES OF TAPE ON THE STRING GROVES.[ it is a fleece type of tape i got a walmart made by allen]. I ALSO SHOOT HEAVY ARROWS[600 GR.] I HAD A BOW QUIVER BUT TOOK IT OFF, THE BOW IS QUIETER WITHOUT IT. WHAT MODEL BOW DO YOU HAVE?

[Matt Green]

PSR III - 58".  I really think i need to go to a heavier arrow.  I'm a good bit under the grains/lb that widow suggests.  Plus as you point out, it will make the bow quieter.  I can add wt to break down a heavy spine, but with the 600's as is, its tuff to stiffen.  i have a bob lee video where they soak the last 8inches of each end of hte string in lacquer thinner to remove wax - makes the string softer and quieter when it hits limbs.  i'm fairly certain i'm going to try some 500spine arrows with a bit more weight.
Thanks again for replying.
matt Green

[jhansen]

Matt,
Porpoising - If it got better when you went to three-under, and you hadn't changed your nockpoint, then you were probably too high in the first place.  I say this because when switching from split to three-under it is normal to need to raise the nockpoint.  Another thing to try is putting TWO nocksets on the string, one above and one below the arrow.  This prevents the arrow from sliding on the string.

Noise - I think you already have a handle on this one.  Heavier arrows soak up more bow energy and result in less noise.  Another way to think of it is that any energy left over after the arrow leaves the string has to go somewhere and it will be reabsorbed by the bow in the form of vibration.  Vibration makes noise.  It also makes handshock.  Something that has already been mentioned is the tightness of the arrow nock on the string.  An arrow should stay put if you put an arrow on the string and allow it to hang down.  A light tap with a fingertip should make it fall off.

John

[STEVE R.]

Matt I also used the weights that bw offers for the gt arrows. You can add weight to both ends nock as well as the point end. This will add gross weight to the arrow as well as change the spine of the arrow. You can weaken or stiffen the arrow.

[Matt Green]

JHansen - thanks.  You've got it.  I set the nock today at 5/16 (3 under).  When i do my part (good release/follow) i get reasonable flight.  My worries are a) in the woods i'm less likely to concentrate as well, incraesing chance of erratic flight when shooting at an animal and b) at 7.4 gr/lb i think i'm being too hard on the bow (Blk Widow only warranties 8+ and rec 9-11).  Plus with greater wt, noise will decraes and i'll pick up some kinetic energy.  I may post this as a quesiton as well:  If 2 arrwos are compared - both 500 spined and 28" - how does the difference of 7.3 vs. 6.3 gpi change things?  on a 28" arrow this adds 28gr?  Interested to get yoru idea - i may post this as a new qeustion.
Steve R - thanks i may continue to tinker with the 600's and try some of the wts - how effective is the wt on the rear at stiffening??
Thnaks for the replies!
matt G

[STEVE R.]

It sort of works like this if you put i50 grns on the point it will weaken the spine. But if you add 60 to the nock itwill stiffen the spine back to normal. And you will have a much heavier arrow. The arrow must be of proper spine to begin with.I did not mean to add weight to the nock to stiffen an arrow that is too weak,to begin with.

[STEVE R.]

I mean 150grns ,not[i50grns]Need 2nd cup of coffee. see ya

[jhansen]

Adding one grain won't change things very much.  If your arrows are that light though you are in serious need of adding weight.  The rule of thumb is 8-10 gr per pound of draw weight.  I lean toward the 10 and sometimes above.

John

[Matt Green]

John
i agree - am looking into heavier arrows.  Am sure they'd be more stable.  if i go heavier and still have issues i will likely try a harder helical fletch
thansk for hte response.
matt G