holding time and instinctive accuracy q for terry green and anyone else

[deermaster1]

i know this has been discussed in several differant ways but i have never heard about what its effects are on instinctive accuracy.  when i am "instinctive" shooting, if i hold for more than 1-2 seconds, i loose my concentration on the spot and can keep my eyes off the arrow which seems to be moving around to much for good accuracy.  but when i instintly release, i feel like im not in control.  is this normal?  from what i saw in the Bowhunter of tradgang, terry, you seem to touch anchor and release.  is this how you normally do it?  thanks for any help.

[McDave]

It has been somewhat of a connundrum for me too.  I've tried it both ways, and my accuracy seems to suffer if I hold for an artificially long period of time.  I do try to slow my draw way down at the end, and try to make sure that I come to full draw with good back tension, because I think that is the main thing that could suffer from a quick release.

I can understand the need to hold if you're gap shooting, because you're trying to line the point of the arrow up with something.  But for me when I shoot instinctively, I don't see any point, since all I'm doing is focusing on the target whether I release now or later on.  It would be like holding a baseball back at full extension for a while before you throw it; it would just ruin my rythym (but then I'm no expert at archery, and certainly not at baseball!).

[deermaster1]

http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=003885
if terry could make this a sticky, i think it would answer alot of questions.  it answered mine.  thanks!

[Diamond Paul]

I think Rod Jenkins described it perfectly on another post: there is no difference in the execution of a proper shot, whether you take 1 second or 12 seconds to shoot it.  If your shot execution is good, how long you hold is just personal preference.  I would guess if you start moving around, you are "holding" instead of shooting with proper back tension, which is a dynamic action, not "holding" as it is usually defined.  A proper shot is never "held;" you must always be pulling and pushing with your back muscles.  Your fingers may not move from anchor, but it is the pulling action of the back that keeps them there, not "holding."  Was that as clear as mud, or what?  Good luck, Paul.

[cvarcher]

Robin would say "caution spilleth the milk". If you are shooting instinctive where you have no sights to hold steady like on a gun or bow with sights then the aiming starts from the time you start drawing.It should all be lined up as you are almost finished with the draw and ready to touch anchor. Your muscles are all under tension so it makes no sense really in my opinion to hold .You will wear yourself out alot quicker too. But the whole process has to be executed in a correct manner exactly the same everytime.Thats why its good to first not shoot at a bullseye target but at blank bales,so you can concentrate more on how you draw, how you hold the grip ,how you anchor, how you release and work each of these parts till you get it down tight everytime. When that happens you will group well and then can worry about hitting things at unknown(reasonable) distances with your eyes and mind.

[scriv]

Well put Paul.  I understood every word.    

[BLACK WOLF]

When an archer holds at anchor the muscles are contracting isometrically, which under load basically means the muscles are contracting just enough to hold the positions of the joints to keep them from moving.

A static release (dead release) is when there is no increased contraction of the muscles at the moment of release.

A dynamic release is when there is increased contraction of the back muscles that cause the drawing hand and arm to move in a linear motion rearward, which creates a more dramtic follow through.

Whether the release happens in a split second or within a few seconds of reaching anchor proper alignment should be reached. This can be achieved whether shooting at moving targets or stationary ones.

A great way to develop this and engrain it within your subconscious is to do some blank bale type of shooting. It usually takes close to a 1000 arrows to truly engrain it.

Ray  

[TaterHill Archer]

Diamond Paul,
Well said.  I think that is the best I've heard it explained and has certainly cleared up my thoughts on "holding"

[longbowguy]

I believe that the issue yoy are experiencing is that there are two good ways of aiming and shooting. As an analogy, the kind well described by Black Wolf is akin to rifle shooting or slow fire pistolry. The other kind is akin to shotgun shooting or action handgun shooting. The latter can be equally accurate for the first shot, maybe two or three, and is what most of use when we do instinctive archery.

But they are two different skills and use different pathways in the brain. If you are shooting instinctively and pause too long some confusion and switching may take place in your brain. When this happens it is helpful to come part way down and begin again.

I think it helpful to learn both methods and to work on form with the slower target method. With the quicker instinctive method concentrate on the point you intend to hit and shoot with a smooth rhythm. - lbg

[Tom A]

I disagree that they are two different methods. When shooting I try to hold for a second or two but the way I aim does not change when I shoot fast. Its still instinctive shooting fast or slow.

The problems people run into when they try to hold are probably more related to the fact that you are fighting your subconcious that has already been trained over and and over to release as soon as you hit anchor and its hard to focus on anything when your fighting with your self. The only way to get around it is to re-train your mind that anchor does not mean release using TP work outs.

[Diamond Paul]

P.S.:  this has been said by better shots than me, for sure (Asbell says it in his books), but your holding time should correspond to your drawing time, IMHO.  If you draw fast, you usually will not "hold" (I really hate that term, since it is not accurate, but I don't know any other way to say it) very long, just continuing the smooth motion of the shot on through with barely a pause.  If you draw slowly, you will usually pause longer before shooting.  It's all about your own personal rythym.  Paul.

[Scott J. Williams]

Tom, you got it "spot on".  Just because a person holds a little longer dosen't mean he/she are not shooting in the instinctive style.  

Time on anchor is not a factor that is a constant requirement when it comes to instinctive shooting, no matter if it is a short time, or a longer time. Where is it written that you have to shoot just as soon as you hit anchor to shoot instinctively.  

There are many reasons a person might decide to hold longer before loosing the arrow.  I have had to wait for game to clear brush, should I have waited, and drawn when they cleared, I would have been detected while drawing.

Let's not get caught up on instinctive shooting as being something that you do with your eyes only.  It is a matter of looking at what you want hit, pointing the bow hand, based on what the "hair covered computer" has determined by previous programing. Naturally the other aspects of the shot come into play, push, pull, back tension etc...

While we can agree that it is not using the bow, the arrow, the rest, or any other part of the bow.  You have all heard the description of pointing one's finger at something, if a lazer was attached you'd hit that object nearly everytime.  Instinctive shooting is just that,  now when holding longer in the process, it requires concentration for a longer period of time, which is always a challenge in instinctive shooting, but not impossible.

Why have I extended my holding time you might ask,  simple, It allows for me secure a better anchor, get that circle of energy, and my back muscles together.  I have learned that since I have done this, I am actually able to shoot faster than before, with better accuracy.  

If you can do it the right way slowly,  it stands to reason that you will be able to do it correctly when rushed.  It is the basic principal of sports training.  

I am an Defensive Tactics Instructor for a large Police Department/Martial Arts Insturctor.  You alway take your students through slow repeated steps, then you can slowly increase the speed once the techniques become a part of the subject. The speed by which you execute a defensive tactic is totally dependent on the situation, as it is in hunting.  

I will not suggest that everyone would want to follow this line of practice, but it has stood the test of time in many of the shooting sports, and athlectics.  Isn't the shooting of the bow, both an athlectic activity, as well as a Martial Art?

Let's not assume that just because a person is holding a little longer that they can't be shooting instinctively, it is a mistake.  It also gives many people the wrong idea, forcing them to think that they must shoot as soon as they reach anchor if they are going to shoot instinctive. It breeds "half draws", "snap shooting", and God forbid, "Target Panic".

Let's be honest, one of the most common reasons that a lot of people let her rip when they hit anchor is due to too much draw weight.  I was guilty of that until recently.  

Now for the disclaimer:

     The opinions expressed here are solely those of the author, and not those of the "Traditional Gang".  

Have a great day!

[Terry Green]

Good stuff here guys.....

I don't just touch and go...and to me, it may LOOK like I shoot or release fast, but in reality I'm aiming from the start, and I FEEL like I shoot MUCH slower.

I drag my thumb base knuckle along my face, and the middle finger goes into the corner of my mouth and CONTINUES to pull my lips back till my thumb base knuckle slides in behind my draw. ALL this time of 'sliding along my face' I am 'on target' and could release ....but I don't till that knuckle slides in to create proper alignment and back tension.

[Terry Green]

Sorry...the door bell rang...

I also go into a 'holding pattern' if the animal moves...I simply pause and continue to focus on my spot even though its blocked for what ever reason, and as soon as the opportunity arises...there goes the rearward creep for a very short time as I'll release very quickly once the spot materializes again.

[laddy]

I try to do what Hill does.  In slow motion, you can see him get in close to anchor and just before release that right elbow goes back a bit. Back tension, even at his speed it works.