Need some help tuning

[Hackbow]

Alright, I'm setting my pride aside and asking for help.

My set-up is as follows:

60" Hummingbird recurve, 71# @ my 30" draw, split finger, superglove

I am currently shooting full length 5000 Vapor Carbonwoods with a 100 gr brass insert and 300 gr heads for a total arrow wt of approx 755 gr. I am hitting what I want pretty much out to 25 yds, but arrow flight is horrible. I've had some help bareshafting and thought we had dialed it in, but can't seem to get consistent.

I am willing to start over with a completely new arrow configuration, but would prefer to stay at 10.5-12 gpp if possible, using carbons.

Does anyone have a suggestion as to what I should try without first dropping a ton of cash on AD's or Grizzly Stiks? I understand the tapered design is more forgiving, but would like to test something first before dropping all that cash without being sure of the results.

Ideas? Thanks!

[McDave]

I wonder if your arrow isn't too weak spined with all that weight up front and shooting a full length shaft?  However, you said you had bareshafted it and "thought we had dialed it in".  Did you actually get good arrow flight when you shot bare shafts, or did you mean something else?  How far out did you shoot the bare shafts?

For a fairly small investment of $8 each, you can get Gold Tip tuning shafts in 5575 and 7595 sizes from Black Widow, and possibly other places.  They come with all the weights and inserts you need.  With Gold Tip, you can put weights on the back as well as the front, so you can end up with the weight you want and maybe get a better balanced arrow.  My guess, at 30" + length, you will want the 7595, but the tuning shafts are cheap enough that you could try both.  The advantage of being able to put weights in the back is that you can get the overall weight you want without overly weakening the spine.  Possibly you could achieve the same result by using weight tubes in your arrows rather than putting all the weight up front.

I don't know how comfortable you are shooting a 71# bow; it would be more than I could handle.  A 30" draw is getting close to the maximum for a 60" bow, so you would get a certain amount of finger pinch.  Shooting split fingers, you may be pressing down on the arrow nock at full draw, which causes the arrow to rebound.  All of these factors may or may not contribute to erratic arrow flight, depending on whether they are problems for you.

[Ausarcher]

Hi, I also think it would be worth getting one of the Gold Tip 7595 shafts and given how adaptable they are you can get your bareshaft flying straight and still have the arrow weight you are after. Adding weight to the nock end has the effect of increasing the spine of the shaft while putting weight up front will weaken it.

[Hackbow]

Thanks guys. Dave to answer your questions, I was at an archery shop (primarily trad guys) and they were helping me bareshaft @ 20 yds. Flight wasn't perfect, but not bad. We had taken some weight out of the front end and saw better results. 71# is very comfortable for me, but I will look into the nock issue with my longer draw.

You both suggested the GT's, so I'll see what happens with them and report back (probably with more questions).

Thanks again....Darren

[Ausarcher]

Hi Darren, One of the reasons I mentioned the Gold Tip shafts was with there system of adding weights you can still get the spine you are after and also the overall arrow weight. There are several other good carbon shafts around the 11 to 12 grains per inch but they have a similar spine to the arrows you are currently using.

[sweet old bill]

When you say the arrow is flying bad, what do you mean ? is it just not in the same hit on the target from arrow to arrow ? even at 20 or 10 yards... or when you shoot a arrow from a longer distance the arrow does not seem to recover or hits the riser of the bow ? I guess prior to buying a lot of arrows I sure would put some baby powder on the riser and shoot just one arrow and see if you have some drags marks were there should be done. I also would try shooting some arrows without the extra weight to see how they fly, take out the 100 gr weight one one arrow, then on another change the head to just 125 gr point and see how they fly... at full length shaft it may just be a weak shaft like several think, but it also could be a s simple as poor setup such as nocking point. As for bare shaft tuning I for one has never had that work out well for me. I was at a easton education meeting on there new shafts one year and Al Henderson was there and told us the worst fact in archery was that bare shaft tuning worked. He suggested that a start shooter at that time Darrel Pace arrows had the worst setup if you went by bareshaft tuning setup marks, but seemed to fly great and hit the gold shot after shot.

[McDave]

He suggested that a start shooter at that time Darrel Pace arrows had the worst setup if you went by bareshaft tuning setup marks, but seemed to fly great and hit the gold shot after shot.
 

That's interesting.  Another great shooter who doesn't bareshaft tune arrows is Rick Welch.  He believes that arrows that have been bareshaft tuned are just on the verge of being too stiff.  He says stiff arrows are unforgiving and there is a whole range of arrows on the weaker side of arrows that have been bareshaft tuned that fly as good or better than arrows that have been set up by bare shaft tuning.

It's indesputable that bareshaft tuning can make a bare shaft fly straight enough to impact with your fletched shafts at 40 yards, but there is some disagreement as to whether that translates into the best fletched arrow.  I bare shaft tune my arrows, because I like the arrow flight that results, but there are some really good archers, such as Rick Welch and the one you mentioned, who don't.

[Hackbow]

Bill,

I was not familiar with the baby powder trick. I will try that and see what I find out. Also, what I meant about the arrows not flying well is that they don't seem to recover well...a lot of movement on their path to the target. They pretty much hit where I want, but are not always parallel in target and certainly not "pretty" in flight.

Also, I will be trying them this weekend with lighter weight up front.

Thanks for your help.

[kbetts]

How tight are your knocks?  I recently had to file some down because they were so tight on my string.  It helped a lot.

[Hackbow]

Update:

dropped point weight to 200 gr. this past wknd. So arrow has 300 gr up front and rest of shaft weighs 350ish. Completed arrows weigh approx 660 gr., which put them @ about 9.3 gr per lb of draw wt. Noise increased BUT.........we achieved nice arrow flight......woohooo!!!

So, I think we're getting somewhere. Too busy with son's HS graduation this weekend to do anything with bow, but I am going to try weight tubes to get weight back up close to 12 gr/lb-pull.

Also, since it appears that I was too weak to begin with, I wonder if cutting a little length off of one end and going back to heavy heads will give me the arrow mass, FOC and flight I'm looking for? Or maybe I shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth and live with less FOC?

Thanks for all your help and ideas. Anymore are, and will be appreciated.

Oh, and kbetts....my nocks are good.....thanks.

[Hardhed]

Witht the weight you are shooting, I would not worry one second about FOC, personally.

[Hackbow]

Hardhed....I hear what you're saying, but I want to increase from 660 gr to 800+. It really helps quiet the bow. I shot through a chronograph with the current wt and was getting mid 180's. When I had 855 gr earlier, I was getting 167-173 fps, so I'd prefer the extra KE with minimal speed loss.

Guess I'll just have to shave a little off the end at a time for testing. Is 1/4" each time about right?

[30coupe]

Yup, 1/4" is about right, and yes, unless you don't have any length to spare, trimming will work without hurting FOC.

I use bare shafts to get close, then fletch and watch the arrow flight to fine tune. When they hit where I point them and the flight is excellent and consistent, I'm done!