Truly Instinctive Shooting

[Ssamac]

     
So here goes. I saw Fred Asbell's video and read his books. He totally relies on concentration on the target, not looking at the arrow or the point and does a heck of a good job shooting. I also watched Masters of the Barebow and there are some pretty good shooters there, esp Ron LaClair and I love how he says he uses whatever works.
So I tried FA's method and my shooting went to pot. Then I went back to looking down the arrow to the target and got back in the bullseye. So does that mean I'm not an instinctive shooter? I don't gap shoot, just look down the arrow. I really don't care what I'm called, btw, as long as I hit the mark.

Comments appreciated???

Thanks
sam

 

[xtrema312]

You can get some real debate on this subject.  For me I don't look down the arrow consciously to aim or gap shoot, but you can bet my brain knows exactly where the arrow  is.

[pronghorn23]

My take is that if you use anything other than pure concentration on the target then its not instinctive.

Like throwing a ball...you dont need anything to throw a ball at a target just concentration.

I tried the look down the arrow method, put the point on the target method and neither seemed to work for me. So I just concentrate on the target.


It get's frustrating at times especially if your having a bad shooting day. I just walk away and start fresh the next day.

But like you said, use whatever method works for you.

[30coupe]

I don't care what it's called as long as the arrow hits the mark. I am like Ron LaClair in that I use whatever works. Unfortunately, it doesn't work nearly as well for me as for Ron      

Use what works the best for you and don't worry about what anyone else thinks or calls it.    :p

[allan f]

I don't know what you call it.  When you look down the arrow are you okay moving further back and closer to the target?  What I'm asking is do you need to adjust where you hold the arrow in your field of vision to hit the mark.  That to me would be a difference between instinctive and "aiming" with he arrow as a sight.  I am not saying either way is right or wrong but if your asking whether you use "instinct" if you use the arrow to point at the target I would say no, but what do I know.
Allan

[Hubertus]

I think we get too hung up on the labels. Sure, they help when one wants to teach a certain method, but to think that we need to fit into some pigeon-hole to belong in this community is assinine.
Personally, I find that the more I follow GFA's instructions, the better I shoot. But that's what works for me (so far). I'm far from an expert. (But I do have some great recipes for "tag soup"!  :p  )

[Ssamac]

Thanks
Allan I don't use a gap method. Looking down the arrow is more for left right alignment. Now I do try to point at the spot like FA instructs, and in doing that I will raise my hand the further back I go and vice versa so basically the point of the arrow goes on the spot and in order to do that the bowhand goes up and down.

I tried to use a gap method and that really didn't work for me. Had to hold the thing and aim and that wound up getting messy. I follow FA on the arm and grip and anchor and pretty much do not have a long pause on anchor but more one smooth (I try at least) draw and shoot motion. I just don't get very good without some point of reference

sam

[Red Beastmaster]

I only look at the spot.

I didn't have anyone to teach me or know of any other method. I just nocked my very first arrow, looked at the target, and shot. Been doing it that way ever since.

I was lucky. I simply practiced to get better. I didn't get bogged down with various techniques and aiming systems. I'm pretty pleased with how things turned out.  

[trapperDave]

Ssamac, sounds likew your a "face walker", if I'm readin that right

[ishoot4thrills]

Originally posted by pronghorn23:
My take is that if you use anything other than pure concentration on the target then its not instinctive.

Like throwing a ball...you dont need anything to throw a ball at a target just concentration.

I tried the look down the arrow method, put the point on the target method and neither seemed to work for me. So I just concentrate on the target.


It get's frustrating at times especially if your having a bad shooting day. I just walk away and start fresh the next day.

But like you said, use whatever method works for you.

Okay, what if that "bad shooting day" happens to be while on stand when a whitetail shows up? I like using my arrow as reference, in one way or another. It's good insurance. And, if it's good enough for Byron ferguson, then it's good enough for me.

[Stone Knife]

 I like using my arrow as reference, in one way or another. It's good insurance.  

What happens if you misjudge your yardage? No method is perfect, you have to use what works for you.

[SlowBowke]

Ssamac, IMHO, I believe your method was referred to as "gun barreling" the shaft, if I understand you correctly. At least back in 1818 when I started and for years afterwords.

Now, before anyone jumps up and down on my head...let me explain.

SOME people "look at" shotgun "sights" too......us old farts "see" it but its not the object of concentration.

Others, like myself, concentrate on the "bird", not the sights. That is gun barreling. My opinion only, no offense meant to anyone thinking differently. Just how I was taught.

A higher anchor normally, but not always, was used by those gun barreling the shaft, some three fingers under.

Use what works, Ron LaClair has great advice there.

Some will ALSO disagree with me on my attitude. Trad archery, for ME, is a hunting only sport. I've never shot a 3D course in my life nor have any desire to do so yet respect those that love it and feel it helps them in the field, enjoy the fellowshipping with others, etc.

Without a doubt, our "mind's eye" or whatever you want to call it is "seeing" where our hand/arrow is pointed but we do not concentrate ON the arrow, not at all, for instinctive shooting.

Our brain internally and automatically makes adjustments on elevation without conscious effort, and believe me if you think about it, or at least --> if I THINK about it, I will miss!!

I don't normally shoot far hunting, nor feel the need to. Most Ive taken at "long range" for me, I simply saw, shot, and stepped off later then you would hear ...."OOPS!"

If you want to have a little FUN that I feel has helped MY shooting in the past, try this experiment, keeping SAFETY in mind...

**ALL the time and not having ANY chance of anything or any one walking around in the line of fire!!**

Read that part again...please!


START at 5-8 yards till comfortable, BEFORE trying anything longer.

Find a TOTALLY dark place to shoot,on a dark, dark, DAAAAAAAAAARK cloudy night or in a building without windows, which works much better for me. ***A LOCKED DOOR*** does wonders for my being at ease and protects those near and ear to you, safety wise.

If you can put your arm straight out in front of you and you can still see your hand....there is too much light.

In front of a BIG backstop, put a target with a lighted object in the middle. A lighted knock works well, stuck IN the front of the target JUST visible.

Concentrate, concentrate, concentrate on that light before, during draw and anchor, through and after the shot, letting your instincts tell you when to shoot.

Some of you will do well right off the bat but you will be AMAZED at what you CAN do if you let your instincts control the shot after becoming comfortable with doing so.

If nothing else, it will help in concentration practice and improve your "hand eye" coordination.

It is not uncommon, for ME, when doing this on a REGULAR basis, to shoot BETTER groups than in the daylight. The reason?

CONCENTRATION is the key IMHO to a super great shot.  When ALL ELSE is invisible, concentration is easier.....ALL I can see is the light.

I feel it helps me concentrate better when in daylight.

Form, anchor and shot are all by "feel". You cant look to check your draw length or anything else.

Once it RAPIDLY told me I was horribly over bowed (*aka, needed to build up strength or ...shoot a lighter bow) simply because the mechanics of the shot could not come instinctively without visible checking something.

FOR ME, what I can SHOOT and what I can PULL are TWO ENTIRELY different weights. Many I watch shoot who would do well (IMO) to consider that as food for thought, as well.

Before you think it's impossible......think of a quarterback hitting a racing receiver 50 yards down field or an outfielder "hitting" home plate from WAYYYYYYYYYYYY out there.

And how in blazes does anyone AIM a golf ball???? Those golf pros amaze me.

But......(windy ol fart! Sorry), there is NOTHING wrong with gun barreling a shaft if it works for you!!

Purely instinctive? Few of us are, my friend, IMHO.

Some of the best shots I've taken in my life on wild game were made when reflexes took over and the shot was made with no conscious thought of HOW I did it. I saw the animal, saw the spot I wanted to hit.........and it was gone.

Now all I gotta do is ignore what my eyes want to LOOK AT other than the tiniest spot these old eyes will concentrate on.

FOR ME, it works unbelievably well.......when I CAN ignore all but the point of impact where I want the arrow to go.

Can I do it consistantly?

NO.....LOL!

All is, again, just IMHO and food for thought.

SAFETY FIRST.........!!! if trying this out.
NO chance, NONE, of being able to injure anything or anyone....OR DONT TRY IT.

God Bless

[monkeyball]

Good topic,and lots of good advice and opinions here.
  Determine what you want to do with the bow,be it hunting,target, 3-D, and find a method that will
work for you.
   I personally shoot split finger,middle finger in
the corner of my mouth,and like to think I shoot
instinctively.It is your mind,hand and eye working
together.Repetition leads to consistency,and consistency is what it is all about.
  I have shot at burning candles,and have hit them. This was at a very early year of Denton Hill
on the practice range at night.I also shot next to Ron LaClair at Denton Hill one year.At least I think it was Ron LaClair.He was a pretty good shot.
   Split,three under,barreling,gap, instinctive,
they all have there place.Find one that works for you,appreciate the rest,and be consistent.

                            Good Shooting,
                                      Craig

[McDave]

Since I switched from split fingers to 3 under, I've become more aware of the arrow shaft, because the nock of the arrow is closer to my eye.  Still, sometimes I'm not aware of the arrow shaft at all.  I don't think being aware of the arrow shaft means that you aren't shooting instinctively.  Not shooting instinctively would mean that I'm not only aware of the arrow shaft, but I'm doing something with that information.

For example, if I draw on a target and notice the arrow shaft in my peripheral vision somewhere below the target, to me, that's still instinctive.  If I try to place the arrow tip a foot below the target because I think that's where it should go to hit the target at that distance, that's not instinctive.

Let's assume I'm shooting at my point-on distance and the arrow shaft is right in the middle of the target.  How can that be called an instinctive shot?  It's a subtle difference, but if I draw on a target, and the arrow point ends up right in the middle of the target, to me, that's instinctive.  If I guess that I'm 45 yards away, so I should place the arrow point in the middle of the target, that's not instinctive.

I find that the more I shoot, I become more accurate shooting instinctively than I am shooting gap, at least at the distances I normally practice at.  Until recently, I would never take a shot over 30 yards without trying to guess the distance and place the arrow point accordingly.  Now I find that I'm more accurate if I don't try to guess the distance, at least out to 50 yards, and just let the arrow point settle wherever it may.  Everything I'm saying here relates to unknown distances, since that's all I ever shoot.

Why would someone be more likely to make an error in estimating the range than he would be to simply shoot over or under the target shooting instinctively? Maybe some people are good enough at judging distance that they would be better shooting gap, but not me.  I really don't know the answer to that, but I suspect it's a left brain/right brain thing.  Some people are better at spacial concepts, and some at analytical concepts.  You'd think I would be better at analytical concepts, being an accountant, but that apparently doesn't hold true when I'm shooting a bow.

[ishoot4thrills]

Originally posted by Stone Knife:
 

 I like using my arrow as reference, in one way or another. It's good insurance.  

What happens if you misjudge your yardage? No method is perfect, you have to use what works for you. [/b]

Good question. Being that I intend to solely take shots at big game inside of 25 yards only (more often 20 yds. or less), it really isn't hard at all to judge distances when we're dealing with these relatively short ranges. I think most people do the majority of there practicing at 15 or 20 yards so it's that much easier to recognize these distances when in the field.

[mrpenguin]

This is an interesting thread...  here's my humble take.  

I started shooting archery 2 years ago with a Browning Wasp I inherited from my grandfather.  I brought it to the local shop, bought some arrows, took a lesson on instinctive shooting and went from there.  

I spent many frustrated hours trying to learn to shoot.  I shot split fingered, 3 under.  I shot gap.  I shot barreling the arrow.  I switched bows to longbow.  I tried different weights and AMOs.  BUT I also read a ton on instinctive shooting.  

First, I read Kidwell's "Instinctive Archery Insights."  In that book he emphasized the 'pick a spot' method, positive thinking, and mental projection.  So I started BELIEVING I would hit where I wanted.  I avoided saying "I hope I dont miss!"  And I burned a mental hole where I wanted to hit.

I then checked out Ferguson's methods.  From him I learned the idea of arrow-focus, where he believes the archer should make the arrow an extension of his will or him/herself... to "be the arrow."  I think he means, pick a spot, be the arrow... not necessarily to use the arrow to aim.  This was a natural progression of Kidwell's psychological methods.  

Lastly I read "Precision Archery" by Ruis and Stevenson.  In this book they emphasize back tension and using that tension as the anchor point, not a spot on the face.  The importance of this came through to me about a week ago.  I just purchased a used Robertson Stykbow (which I absolutely love I must add) and was matching up arrows to it at the shop.  As I was shooting, trying to get my elevation corrected, my friend said "you moved your head."  Apparently, I was moving my head back as part of my release in order to lengthen my draw.  So, remembering Ruis' warning that the corner of the mouth can be inconsistent, I began working on the back tension method.  This took several days and several arrows cut to the draw I wanted (28").  I would draw and anchor on my face wherever, focusing on where my scapulas were, and how tight they felt.  Then I checked the arrow on the bow and affirmed it was 28".  After persistent practice, I have adopted this method.... SO after all this, here is my method:

1.  Pick a spot
2.  Mentally project the arrow hitting it
3.  KNOW the arrow WILL hit it
4.  Imagine that the arrow IS an extension of your intensions to hit THAT spot
5.  Draw, anchor (back tension)
6.  Focus on the spot and move my release hand back until the arrow is off the string (like a gun, the release should come as a surprise because you are really focusing on the spot)

In reality, this seems like a lot, until it just becomes HOW you shoot... then it takes seconds.

Using this method, I am grouping tightly at 20 yds., better than every before.  I have high confidence in my shooting as well.  Do I miss, of course, but that is why I practice everyday, and my misses are almost always fatal big game shots, well within the 8-9" range.  Being a perfectionist, its never good enough, so I practice more.

Lastly, I should note the importance of finding a bow that works for you.  Having shot as many bows as possible, selling, buying, trying out... I found that recurves, with pistol grip, AMO 58 or less, weight 45-52 fit me.  My Robertson is a Vision Falcon IV, 58 AMO, 48#, Takedown Recurve.  The bow, in combination with a good arrow, and the technique have ALL contributed to my shooting success.

The lesson is: try it all, merge it, and find the path that works best for you