arrow selection and tuning help

[boznarras]

I need some input on arrow selection and bow tuning. Thank goodness for this site to have some place to turn to!
I am shooting a Bear Kodiak Magnum, #55@28" (need to verify the weight).
Using the Easton charts, I got some XX75 arrows, 2216's, cut to 29", and have been shooting 125g field points. I have some 125g Snuffers and 125g Stingers that I'd like to use. The arrows weigh about 407grains, and the tips are within 3gr of 125g. When I balance them and compare the balance point to the center, they are FOC about 2.75inch.
So far I am just fooling around with the target points and having some fun, getting better and remembering lost skills. I do see some wobble in flight, so I want to get rid of the equipment errors to focus on my own skills next.
I have played with brace height, settling on 8 inches which works and feels best with the present arrow set up. After reading Fred Asbell's book, I modified the shelf and plate so that the rest point lined up with the grip better, and made a rest from a piece of sealskin, which a native neighbor here in Alaska harvested locally and gave to me   .
I was going to do the bareshaft tuning, after reading here, and on the Adcock/ACS site. But the more I read, the more I think about what to do next, and how to go about it.
Questions:
It seems like my FOC is pretty low, after reading the Adcock site. Do I calculate the FOC using 2.75 over 29" shaft length, or do I use the overall arrow length, with the tip on it, i.e with the Stinger, it is 31.75"? Either way I am below 10%, and it seems like I want to be above 20%, from what I read. Maybe this is part of the wobble?
Should I try adding some weight for increasing FOC? How much, and will the 2216's work out with weight plus 125gr tips? Is there any point to bareshaft tuning with the present unweighted arrows if I am going to do that?
When I look at the weight systems available, I am not sure what would be best for the 2216 shafts; some don't list that shaft, so I guess they would not fit. Ideas for that?
Any advice appreciated on what to do and what sequence to follow.
Thanks
Walter

[GRAYBEARD]

I WAS SHOOTING A SIMILAR WEIGHT BOW BUT I HAVE BETTER LUCK SHOOTING 2016S. WITH 125GRAIN TIPS I COULD NOT SEEM GET ANY REAL CONSISTENCY BUT A BOWYER FRIEND SUGGESTED 175 OR 200 GRAINS OUT FRONT. GROUPS IMPROVED IMMEDIATELY. MIGHT BE WORTH A CHEAP EXPERIMENT.

[boznarras]

I might have to get a dozen 2016's, if for no other reason than the 2216's don't seem to have a weight system that will fit. I just got off the phone with 3rivers and they had a 2216 shaft there, and could not get any of their insert systems to make a close fit.
They have an assortment of heavy field points that I could get to figure out what front weight I want, but there's no point to it with the 2216's, if I can't weight them to use my 125g.broadheads afterwards.
Seems like I have to either toss out my 2216's or my broadheads, if I want to increase FOC, and the broadheads are worth more than the shafts.
Thanks
W.

[TSHOOTER]

There is a good FOC calculator on jackson archery.  Just google jackson archery and you'll find it.  From what you stated your arrow foc is around 10.5% and right under 10gr per lb draw wt.  I have found a 2216 too stiff for my 29 inch draw @ 57lbs.  A full lenth (30 inch) 2117 with 125 gr point is perfect for me.  Your mileage may vary.  I have also found a 2016 a little weak for that draw wt especially if you want to front load it.  I don't believe aluminum lends itself to heavy frontloading as well as carbon.  If you want 20 % FOC I think you would be better starting with carbon in a .400 spine and loading heavy.  Personally a straight flying shaft anywhere above 10% FOC and between 9-11 gr per pound is all I need.  Aluminum suits me well in this.  If you are going to shoot aluminum I would start with a 2018 or 2117 full length and tune from there.  Hope this helps.

[boznarras]

Thanks for the help tshooter. I looked at the jackson site and did the FOC two ways and get just under 9%FOC. I intend to look at that site some more...
It sounds like I might as well shop for some different arrows.
The 2216's are what the chart on the Easton site led me to, but so much for that. I noticed that Adcock had a different chart that resulted in 2016's using the same data, so obviously there is some confusion here.
Will have to give it lots more thought, appreciate any input.
W

[TSHOOTER]

Boznarras

Are you shooting vanes?  I can't get FOC that low with your setup shooting feathers.

[boznarras]

TSHOOTER
I have feathers, 5 inch, three per shaft.
After I looked at the Jackson site, I see the measurement for total length includes the broadhead, and measures to the bottom of the seat in the nock, so this is 31 1/4 inch, not 31 3/4. The distance from center of this to balance point is still right at 2 3/4 inches.
When I plug these values into the FOC calculator by measurements, it gives an FOC of 8.8%
When I try to do the other method now, I realize I don't know all the components they ask for, as for the insert and nock, or the weight of the fletches. When I weighed the arrow without the broadhead, however, the fletches, nock, and insert all got included in the 407 grain weight.
The nock is the unibushing insert type that can be rotated. I don't know what the insert for the screw in tips is, but the arrows came precut and assembled, minus tips. I got them from Cabela's, so they might be able to tell me...
Thanks for the interest in my problem.
I have been thinking of where to go from here.Does this plan sound reasonable?
 I will start from scratch. Get a scale and check draw weight, get some help and remeasure my draw length (although 28 seems right), and then reshop for new shafts, with the idea of getting something I can add weight to, if I want. Decide if I want aluminum or carbon, do some more research on that.
Then order the shafts with nocks and loose inserts, plus the fieldpoint test kit with the heavier tips. Then fletch 3 or 4 arrows and compare them with bare shafts with 125gr field points to start,and see if I want to change anything on the bow: brace height, nock, side plate. Then try the heavier points on both the fletched and bare shafts to see if I want to add weight.
How does that seem for an approach? (Anybody's input appreciated.)
W

[boznarras]

TShooter,
I just went back to the Jackson calculator and redid the FOC with components, for XX75 arrows and I got the 10.5% that you did, by assuming the inserts and nock etc were the easton 2216 type. This is likely correct, as the total arrow weight comes out on the calculator at 533grn and my actual weight was very close to this at 407 + 125 = 532.
I don't know why the two methods differ so much in their answer...maybe I have heavy fletches? Everything stays pretty damp here in the rain forest...This could throw the balance point farther aft than usual, I guess.
W

[bowslinger]

Walter,

I shoot a couple of 50-pound recurves (Bear Grizzly and Damon Howatt Hunter), two R/D longbows, 55 and 59 pounds (Herb Meland Pronghorns), and one 65-pound Hill-style longbow (Ron Maulding Bighorn).  Arrow lengths range from 29.5 to 30.5 inches from nock groove to edge of insert.  With no bow quiver, dacron strings, string silencers,and 125-grain field points or broadheads, 2016s and 2018s fly best for me.  The 55-pound Pronghorn with a fastflight string shoots a 2117 best (bareshaft planing following Adcock's advice).  Everything else shoots a weaker-spined arrow.  I switched to a 12-strand S4 string on the 59-pound Pronghorn from a 16-strand D97 string and dropped from a 2117 to a 2018 arrow for best arrow flight.

My guess is that the 2216s are too stiff.  Some of the current arrow charts recommend overly stiff arrows for traditional archery, in my opinion.  I have found that buying an arrow saw and cutting your own arrows is a tremendous help in finding the right arrow length (hence, spine) for a given bow.  I kept a few arrows from several spine weights (2016, 2018, 2117, 2216) in different lengths to help find the proper arrow for different bows, for myself and several friends that have decided to go traditional.  If you can afford to (which can be difficult at times) buy an arrow saw and create your own set of test arrows.  Maybe you can talk a few fellow trad shooters (if you know any) into creating a communal set of test arrows.  May be cheaper for everyone in the long run.

My FOC typically runs around 11% TO 12% using Easton's calculator.  Like you, I try to match arrows with 125-grain broadheads.  I have not tried shooting extreme FOC arrows.  Maybe some day.

Mike

[xtrema312]

FOC looks to be about 10.7.  That is a very stiff arrow for your bow.  I don't know your draw lenght, center, cut, string type and other factors, but that is really a stiff arrow.

[Jaiverri]

2216's are too stiff for your setup.
Another consideration, if you want to stay with aluminum, would be to have 2018 x 29" long with 100 grain brass insert (instead of the light aluminum inserts). This setup could get you very close to what you want to achieve which seems to be: a) have a heavier arrow; and b) use your 125 grain broadheads. You could also add two or three brass washers for an additional 15 grains at the point.

[Bluetooth]

I would use 145gr tip/broadheads. I shoot a 55# Brackenbury Drifter , I've had since 1992. My draw is  27.5" and I have been shooting a 29" 2117 for most of that time. I just tried a 2216 @ 29" and it flies good too .

Reguardless of anyones charts Easton has spent more money on R&D than most of us make in a lifetime.As any chart they are refference points. I find that Easton's charts are great for me. One less thing to worry about. Bottom line is , do your arrows fly true with a broadhead ?

[boznarras]

Great help from all of you, thanks much.
TShooter even sent me 3 different types of arrows to try; very kind act mailing those to Alaska from Kentucky for a stranger. Thanks again, Scott.
I wound up with 2016's cut to 30 inches, with 100grn brass inserts and 125gr tips, and they are doing well for now, things have really tightened up out to 22 yards, my everyday driveway shoot.
I figure I will go through it all over again when groups stop improving, and higher skill level allows better critique of the equipment.
I wonder how often others go back to square one and check nock point, brace height, bareshaft, etc?