Doing the Push / Pull

[Ragnarok Forge]

I have been having a whole lot of fun struggling with a new form challenge.  I was shooting 3 inch groups at 20 yards consistantly.  I even had times when 2 inches was the norm for ten to twelve groups in a row.  

I started shooting target league at the local archery shop to add some stress into my shooting.  Before league I could stand in the shop, chat with the gus and shoot really tight groups.  Well the added stress worked.  My groups opened up to 5 inches with some flyers out to 9 inches thrown in during the league shoots.  

Today at the local archery club, I finally figured out what I was doing wrong.  I am focusing so hard on a smooth release, that I lost my ocus on the center of the target.  And just as importantly I was not using a push / pull with my bow and drawing arm while drawing thru the shot.  I reverted back to totally relaxing my front arm and just letting it float like I used to when using my compound.  This led to dropping my arm and throwing the arrows right or left and down.  

I finally figured this all out today, corrected the problem in practice and my groups tightened considerably.  Everything was going into the red and a bunch in the yellow on a 3 color target. 3.5 to 4 inch groups.  I shold be able to tighten that up with steady practice correcting these form issues.

I was getting tired when I finally figured it out.  I am hoping this revelation will and shooting target league with the stress in induces will eventually improve my focus and form so I can shoot better overall.   Amazing how one little part or another of proper form can really change how well you shoot.

[COOCH]

Form is the key.You have to walk before you can run,keep at it.

[Scarne]

Good post Clay.  A new environment means new mental disorders on the line.  Learning to shoot in front of people was the hardest thing I ever learned to do in archery.  The more you do it the easier it will get.

Good Luck!

[TSP]

"I have been having a whole lot of fun struggling with a new form challenge. I was shooting 3 inch groups at 20 yards consistantly. I even had times when 2 inches was the norm for ten to twelve groups in a row."

Clay, you do realize that if you were doing this on blue dots at 20 yards you would be a state and possibly a national champion caliber (290-300) shooter (1.5" average from dead center)?  Are you sure that by '3" groups' you don't mean 3" from center?  That would be a 6" group.  Still good...but a true 2"-3" consistent group would be spectacular.

[Ragnarok Forge]

I was a long range rifle competitor.  They are three inch groups.  I shoot at a local shop with a lot of guys who go to Worlds, state competitions, Vegas, etc...

I was hanging with the guys and shooting right in there with the compound bowhunter class guys one afternoon.   I scored a 249, 260, and 254 in three rounds that afternoon.  After watching me shoot several of shop sponosored shooters encouraged me to start shooting target league.   Several of them are trying to talk me into shooting at Vegas this year for the experience.  They figure with a year or two's target experience to get over the stress, I could be in the top 10 shooters in my class.  

The problem right now is that shooting in target league I have dropped my scores to the mid to low 220's.  I am working thru the form issues stress induced by league shooting to get back over 240 for my average scores.  

My understanding is that if I can shoot 250 consistently I can have a good chance of winning Vegas.   My best score since starting league and finding my new problems has been a 249, throw in some mid 230's and a bunch of 215 - 220's.  

If I can get the form and concentration issues beat, I plan to go to Vegas next year.  

I am shooting the scores on a three color NFAA 18M/20 Yard target.  Once I get the form issues resolved a bit I will try it on a Blue Dot target and see how I do.

I am as suprised as everyone else at how well I am doing.  I just got back into trad after a 20 year hiatus.  I jsut wish there was a really good local trad coach to talk me thru what I am doing wrong.  I think that would speed my learning curve up a bunch and enable me to really sing the arrows into the ten ring.  

I plan to spend a lot of this winter shooting blind and blank bale to get my release butter smooth and consistent.  I also figured out that I am not placing my feet and upper body consistently and have been making minor adjustments to where my feet are and how open my stance is.

[Over&Under]

Lowell

I certainly do not have groups like yours, but completely understand about the added stresses of shooting a league or in front of people.  It really seems to magnify minor flaws in form.  I plan on shooting at the local club more often for just that reason, to help cope witht he stresses while still maintaineing form.

Last Sunday, we shot a small indoor 3d tourny and although I was stacking arrows in the target at home, at the shoot I began to realize I was doing just the opposite as you, and focusing more on where I wanted to hit and was not reaching anchor consistantly.  

Might I ask, what kind of bow you shoot? And what type of aiming / shooting style do you use?

Thanks and good thread.

Jake

[foamkiller]

Clay don't want to be the one to burst your bubble but.........250 won't win Vegas. Do some research on the NFAA website. You will find that if you are shooting a recurve there are only two classes that you can shoot. One against the olympic recurve with sights and stabilizer. The second would be in Barebow which is primarily a compound class. I don't want to discourage you but Vegas is not the place for a sightless stickbow shooter. If you want to compete in indoor spots at the national level the NFAA's Indoor National at Louisville would be the best place as they have a traditional class. Good luck to you and keep shooting.

[StickBowManMI]

I am a reasonably good shot until I shoot in a league and then I seem to fall apart. I know what you mean about pressure affecting your shooting. Any one have any suggestions on how to resolve these type of issues?

[Ragnarok Forge]

Hi Guys,

Foamkiller, thanks for the input, I don't know a lot about target shooting and any input is deeply appreciated.  I will check into the NFAA Indoor Nationals.  Not that I am good enough yet, only that I have had suggestions from world class shooters, two who are former champions That I am already good enough to do well.  I shoot a longbow, do they have a class for off the shelf longbows at Vegas?

Over / Under. I shoot a 68 inch Wes Wallace Royal, Reflex/Deflex at 55lbs at my 30.25 inch draw length.  I shoot instinctive.  I do not use any aiming system.  Just muscle and mental memory to make the shot.

Last night at target league was a great example of both decent and horrible shooting due to stress.  I shot a 99 on the bottom and a 125 on the top. I forgot to move my foot forward to get my angle for the shots while on the bottom.  I  was tilting at the waist on the bottom shots.  It threw my shoulder alignment off and I shot really poorly.  I shot a decent round on the top. Not up to the normal non league shooting I do but decent.  Non league, I normally shoot a 125 on the bottom and 140 to 150 on the top.
My best practice NFAA target rounds so far has been a 275 out of 300.

I have to say it is a lot of fun to outshoot some of the guys with wheels, stabilizers, expensive target sights, fatty arrows, etc...  
The other day at the club, one of them who is a personal friend got really irked and then flat out pissed that I outshot him with his $3,000 full blown set up with a "&#%$%#$ Stick!"

[foamkiller]

Clay good luck to ya. Keep shooting and don't get discouraged if you don't succeed at first. I know a couple of guys who have worked a long time to shoot in the 260/270 range on the NFAA face.

[Ragnarok Forge]

Thanks for the support.  

I get frustrated a bit at the target shoots when I fall apart and shoot worse than I do in practice. After shooting a bad bottom half two nights ago, I put aside my frustration, and managed a decent score on the top half.  I think I have learned enough to start setting each individual shot aside and focus on the next shot.  

  Once I can stay in the bubble throught the ends, I should be able to ramp my competition scores back up.  Entering league shoots has definately helped me see my form weaknesses and what stress can do to a shooter.

[zetabow]

Clay your scores are pretty decent and would likely get you in top 3 IFAA world indoors.

Bert Gesch from Germany has won twice now, last time in Argintina he shot the 3 days with 264, 251 and 247. It's a hard pressure game, when I shot 2007 worlds against Bert I was shooting 255-260 in practice leading up to the tourney when I got there the best I could manage was a 243 on last day. First day was nightmare as top target spot was above my head and totally threw my game out the window and only just made 200 because all our tourneys the top face was no higher than chest height.      :confused:      

IFAA Longbow says 'D' shaped Longbow when strung and you must shoot woodies, split finger.

    http://www.ifaa-archery.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=83&Itemid=96

[Over&Under]

Clay

Thanks for answering my questions.  I must hand it to you sir for being that accurate with that type of aiming/shooting method.  It can sometimes be ease to be inconsistant when shooting instinctive only.  Keep it up!!

[graysquirrel]

Clay I shot in the first NFAA tournament that allowed trad bows WAY back in the 70's.  I shot a 281 and a 285 if memory serves me correctly using a 50lb Dave Johnson longbow and wood arrows.   I finished tied for 3rd.  Got my butt spanked by an old geezer shooting a Martin 35lb target bow and aluminum arrows.  I believe he shot back to back 292.

Now with some of the bows set up shooting in the 290's will have to be done in order to place. Best I ever did in practice was a long time ago shooting a 292.

[Ragnarok Forge]

Graysquirrel,

Thanks for the info on the needed scoring to place.  I am not to worried about winning.  I am just looking for the next challenge to step up the stress to improve my overall shooting.

I am in my first year back to trad after 20 shooting with wheelie bows.  I am shooting a heavy hunting arrow right now at league.  I am thinking about picking up a 40 lb longbow for practice and target league.  I am thinking that with the lighter arrows and a lighter poundage bow I should be able to refine my form and really get it down pat.  

I am figuring that in another year or possibly two I will have gotten good enough to need to step up the stress to take the next step in my form improvement.  I plan at that time to start  attending state, and national competitions.  I have to get the wife out of college before I can even think about spending the cash it would take to go to worlds.

Zeta Bow,  I will have to buy a D shaped longbow before I will be able to shoot IFAA.  My present bow is a reflex / deflex design.

[TSP]

Nice to see someone get a shooting passion like you seem to be nurturing there, Clay.  I love to shoot but am definately not much of a target score shooter.  Still, it's easy to appreciate the dedication and hard work it takes to get good at it, especially when using non-sight methods and gear meeting the IFAA longbow rules (thanks for that reference info, zetabow).  Looks like you're well on your way!      

P.S.  Good thread!

[zetabow]

Originally posted by Ragnarok Forge:
Graysquirrel,

Zeta Bow,  I will have to buy a D shaped longbow before I will be able to shoot IFAA.  My present bow is a reflex / deflex design.

You can have R/D Longbow as long as it shows 'D' when strung, any Hill style or 21st Century Edge or the new Fox Tripple crown is popular. I'm shooting English made Longbow Blackbrook 'Zeta' which is fast developing a good rep for performance\\quality and notching up some good IFAA\\Fita results (not available in USA).

 www.blackbrook.eu

Not many Americans shoot IFAA Longbow International apart my good friends Larry Yien and Dana Chatoo, so if you do venture into IFAA you will be most welcome.