Striking shelf

[briandean]

OK. If I use a 30 inch GT 3555 with a 145gn field tip, won't that be the same as going weaker on the spine.  My draw length is 27.5.
I also found the Easton 500's a little weaker than the GT3555's , so I have tipped them with 125gn??
Also, BlueBarred, you mentioned something I haven't heard of - to have the point that's raised above the throat. Here's a pic of where I think you are suggesting - am I correct in my assumption.  If so, why is that necessary? - I am learning.    
 

[xtrema312]

With a 30" Gt 3555 I was running 145 point and standard insert on a 45@28 drawn to about 29 1/4".  That calculates very close on Stu's spine calculator.  The bow is cut to center and built out about 1/16-1/8".  I would think you would be a little stiff with your set-up, but there are so many variables with the biggest one being the shooter.  I would try bumping up the point weight some if you can just to test it out.

I would also get the tape on there to check and make sure you don't continue to rub the shelf.

It appears from that side view that you are above the shelf without that match stick.

You want the match stick at the deepest part of the grip where shown by your white mark so that when you slightly torque the grip the pivot point of that torque is where the arrow rests.  The farther from the pivot point the more the slight variations of the grip effect the arrow.

[briandean]

Makes sense, thanks guys - appreciate the help.

[MercilessMing]

Just want to share my experience.  I had to raise my nocking point almost 1/2" higer than the bow square sets to let the arrow not hitting shelf.  Then I realized my release hand could possibly moved the arrow much lower to the nock.  

Either one of the two  I did fixed my problem:  (1)place the arrow above the nock.  or (2)lower my right elbow by  2".

[briandean]

Thanks for the advice.  I think the variables preclude a definite answer - without seeing the whole thing with your own eyes.    Checked out the arrow tuning part on Masters of the Bare Bow 2 yesterday.  Ken Beck reckons that if you've tried everything and you still get nock high when bare shaft tuning, it could be the string hand.  When I've tuned the arrows till they fly dead straight etc, they still always fly nock high.  From nocking point under centre to 1 inch above - nock high.  Of course, fletches correct this, but that's not the point.  He described EXACTLY what my arrows were doing - hitting the outside edge of the shelf.  He described 2 things - both of which I have been doing.  The first is pushing down on the arrow - causing a bend which tries to straighten on release - causing a vertical paradox.  This, together with the usual, horizontal paradox, puts the arrow shaft right on the edge of the shelf as it passes.
The second issue is canting the bow, but not the string fingers equally - so the bow & string under the fingers are not parallel - adding to the problem.
My son watched my release and saw the problem.  It's easy to see when explained properly.
Added to all this, an experienced trad friend of mine explained about the problems gloves can cause.  The finger tip leather - especially on the ring finger - gets grooved, 'hanging onto' the string on release - same problem.
I love my glove, but may have to explore other options.
I have reset my bow to its settings before I started all the changes - which reduced accuracy somewhat. At least the arrows are now nearer the targets.  Will work on the string hand.
Hope this helps a few others with similar issues.

[xtrema312]

Make sure you have a nock under the arrow as well as above.  That is a big one if you can move the arrow up and down when on the sting.  I don't see one in your pick.

The string issues in MOTBB III are good ones. It didn't fix this for me, but did help my shooting some.  Also the fingers and release issues with my tab were identified.  That helped, but didn't make it all better or consistently gone.  If they don't for you Try a slightly higher elbow just to get a little more pull with the bottom two fingers in addition to some conscious effort to load the middle and ring finger more than the index to eliminate the down finger pressure.  That helped me as lot.  I would have thought it would put in more index down pressure and shaft flex, but it didn't.  If you have a higher elbow maybe you don't want to try this, but it is worth a couple shots to feel the difference.

The last one I learned, which really cleared it up for good, was to get your hand up a little higher in the grip if possible.  Really get it up to the shelf as close as you can.  A lower grip will change the location of the center of the pressure.  That will cause limb timing issues and rotational issues on the bow.  It could even cause the bow to rotate a little at full draw causing the index finger to push down on the shaft.  I am now shooting great bare shafts and shooting them level if I want.  I was not able to do that for a while after all my form changes got this going.

My post about continued split finger issues hitting the shelf is all about the same issue you are having.

[BlueBarred]

Sorry  for the long response Briandean, it has been a long week.... As xtrema said, where you have the white mark on your pic is where you want the high point of the shelf.
"I think the variables preclude a definite answer"
Now you're really understanding Archery!! I still recommend the second string nock below the arrow. It will stabilize the arrow on the string through the shot and may keep it from bumping your shelf. I tie mine on with 5 or 6 wraps of serving or b50 or whatever is at hand. Other than that, what xtrema said in the above post rings true for me too. It can all be a bit overwhelming at times. The variables seem endless. I'm still learning too so I feel your pain! As far as the glove thing goes, if you get cordovan tips, you don't get the grooving. There are also some newer materials out there that are supposed to give better string feel with lighter weight bows also without the grooving. I went back and forth with tabs and gloves, always favoring the glove. But I think I've finally found what gives me the best shot with a a Bateman cordovan tab, but that's a whole other story. Good luck and don't forget to keep having fun.
Dave

[JF]

Thanks all for your input.                   John

[davesonic444]

I have the same problem.I went to 3/4 nocking point,2 nocksets and prctice shooting through paper at times to check my progress.Still have issues but not nearly as bad.

[xtrema312]

Originally posted by davesonic444:
I have the same problem.I went to 3/4 nocking point,2 nocksets and prctice shooting through paper at times to check my progress.Still have issues but not nearly as bad.

Try this experiment.  Shoot three under.  Shoot some bare shafts and paper if you like.  If that helps and you don't hit your shelf even with the same nock point you are using now split finger then try and move it down a hair.  See what happens with this.  If you can get great flight with no shelf hit 3 under I have an idea for you to try next.

[BrokenArrows]

I had a less severe case, and raising my nocking point 1/16 inch was a quick and easy fix for me on my longbows.

On recurves I've noticed that getting good arrow flight is easy w an elevated rest like the Cavalier, Bear Weather, Hoyt, etc. When I shoot recurves off the shelf, I can drive myself crazy.