Problems?

[BobCo 1965]

It's all give and take. What you described may not be the ideal position biomechanically as far as positoning for back tension goes. But it does put the arrow in better alignement if you choose to use a gap or secondary vision technique of aiming. It also gives you a bit more clearance for hunting clothes.

Using the large back muscles to their best ability should reduce wear and tear on other joints/muscles.

[swampthing]

Just can't find a happy place. Elbows all unhappy, ring fingers ticked off, draw wrist and forearm are in knots, man, this used to be fun, now it's just more work. Again 50#@28" shooting for 4-5years. Maybe I need 40#'s

[BobCo 1965]

Keeping it fun should be a priority. If you are going hunting this fall, I'd suggest going to what has been working for you.

There is a lot of time for experimentation after that. You may even want to get the form burnt in over the course of a few mnonths with therabands, then move to a light weight bow, then go back to your hunting bow. The problem is not only learning something new, but unlearning something from the past.  

Something to consider anyway.

Bob

[scriv]

Originally posted by swampthing:
Just can't find a happy place. Elbows all unhappy, ring fingers ticked off, draw wrist and forearm are in knots, man, this used to be fun, now it's just more work. Again 50#@28" shooting for 4-5years. Maybe I need 40#'s

I dig what you are saying right there.  The last part.  Yep, the fourties.  My bows are in the upper thirties, but of course my draw is so long that they make the mid 40's before I am done.  I recently drew a 50# long bow and shot, just like "butta".  That thing had to be nearly 60# at my draw- no problem.  Point is practice and groove your shot on a lighter bow that allows you to get where you need to be.  Then when you need to draw a heavier bow your shot will be there.  You may find out that you don't need a heavier bow.  Back in my youth I shot a 70# longbow. As most younger gents I shot way too much bow.  I'd like to think I've benefitted from my years and shoot the lighter bow.  Due to my length and form, many can't believe how light my bow is when they see my arrow fly. Good luck man.  Dave

Get the video "Hittin' "em Like Howard Hill" believe it follow it, then just shoot.  I have seen it before that when someone starts over analyzing what they do the natural feel goes away and all kinds of tensions show up.  If you want to shoot fluid, you have to follow a shooting system of one who has perfected fluid.  There is really no need to reinvent that wheel, just copy Hill.

[-Achilles-]

I don't know that his left shoulder is high.It could just be muscle.Mine is the same way.I can't lower it anymore and I know I'm not overbowed.

Good advice above.I would ask how good is your shooting?

[BobCo 1965]

Boy I wish things were as easy as just shooting like Howard. Don't get me wrong, Howard was amazing. He is a "hero" of mine and we have pictures of him all over my cabin. I have read everything that he has written more then once. - John Schulz also.

But I think that many would agree that beyond Howard's talent with a bow, he had incredible strength and endurance (as much or even more then the Olympic Archers of today IMO), which is very overlooked IMO. He had absolute complete control of himself and of his bow which was often very high in pulling weight. If you watch his video's it almost looks like he is pulling a rubber band back, it is so effortless.

So what I am saying is that if you really want to copy Howard, then strength should not be overlooked. I sure wish I could copy him (or John)in his entirety.    

I worked at the strength until I could shoot a 90 pound bow all day. I used a thick leather pad and worked out with two heavy bows.  I can still draw two 64 pound bows together a couple of dozen times, I agree strength is critical to control. However, the young man in the photo is strong and his bow is a 50 pounder.  I think he has the stuff to shoot Hill style.  There is not all that much different from Terry's form clock to the Hill form.  Perhaps a bit more bend in the left arm.  The way Howard Hill drew a bow also had a lot to do with using the proper muscles.  When that form is used the proper muscles come into play automatically, while keeping the body frame in a more natural none exaggerated state of flexibility.  Much more of an ergo-dynamic state, which results in a better use of strength and less chance of injury.  On top of all that it kills game.  When Byron Ferguson studied Hill it turned everything around for him as it did for me and many others.  The one thing I must point out, judging someone by what is in two still photos, may be a little incomplete.  The young man in action may have a different form or there may be other aspects that in a dynamic state that do not show up in the full draw pose.  There is also the mental application of the fluid shooting style, the focus, the economy of motion, the human predator in action.  I think he has the right stuff to succeed.

[BobCo 1965]

Originally posted by pavan:
I worked at the strength until I could shoot a 90 pound bow all day.  

Hope I didn't stike a nerve with you. Didn't mean to if I did. Just meant to state the importance of strength and endurance and the amount that Howard had. Personally, if I could pull a 90 pound bow all day, I'd be extremely happy.    Congrats to you. Personally, I can do about 2 hours and about 120 arrows with my 54# bow before my form starts to fade, then I'm done. Practicing to fatigue is good, but practicing while fatigued is not IMO. I agree with you that timing and flow are extremely important, especially if indivual aspects have been mastered. I completely agree that Howard was a master.

[swampthing]

Part of the problem seems to be anchor, if I just pull straight till to anchor the draw shoulder will angle foward as I pull back.
    NOW if I think about a "slight" rotation, almost as though you pull around your nose then allow the rotation to end/land at my anchor, as I draw the bow back the shoulder does not feel as though it is being angled foward. This is a very subtle difference but is showing improvement in reducing stress. I also notice when I bend that elbow and kinda' let the bow weight push into my bow shoulder the arrow flight is much better than when I push the bow toward the target, which tells me I'm torquing the bow when I push it toward the target, more than likely from fore-arm tension as my grip on the bow is not tight.
So..
instead of pushing to the target and cranking my neck...  bend the elbow to allow the bow rise up into my vision, as apposed to cranking down to see it.
2. swing draw 2/3's and than rotate the draw shoulder slightly around its axis to alliviate tension in that entire arm.
Sound safe?

[-Achilles-]

Never try to copy someone elses form.Bad idea.

Sounds like you are getting there. The cranking of the neck thing. Just this evening i had a go around with my wife, about the same thing.  she was jamming her neck going for a long draw and a tight hold and anchor with her recurve.  she has been complaining about a stiff cord in her neck.  We worked it out much as you described, and she found that the cramping in her neck was not giving as much pain as before. I have had bows that I could squeeze hard and not effect the flight of the arrow,, straight gripped Schulz, and others that worked better with just enough pressure to keep the bow in my hand on release. If you let the bow push too much back on you to the point of collapsing your shoulder that could also be less than ideal. Everyone has there own best exact spot for their anchor, where ever it naturally lands and still allows inline and clear vision works for most.
As far as the comment above, good form is just that, adapting that which works for others that are better than us. We are all the same species, what works for one will generally be similar for another.  There is a difference from static target shooting mentality to the fluid hunting mentality, the approach is quite different.  Saying that, I will admit to having enjoyed FITA shooting and shooting indoor PAA rounds.  That 20 yard 290+ per round average did not help me at all for hunting.

[KumaSan]

This is one thread that I enjoyed reading, and after this hunting season I have a few things to work on. The strength conditioning and stretching is a plus.