Returning to Archery finally

[Xander]

After many years away from the sport I have put together a nice little kit with a Browning Wasp 50# recurve.

I shot recurve exclusively in the years past and have been away long enough to have forgotten everything about form and mechanics.

I am an instinct shooter in my other aspects, and spent many months dialing in my stance and technique for shooting 10m one hand, off hand pistol.  Now my question is, should there be any major issues with having muscle memory set up for my pistol shooting that I need to consciously avoid?

I understand that the rigid bottom half of my stance is going to have to go, but anything else?  I am very methodical and disciplined in my form training so I would like to build either a completely different stance, or try to use as much of the retained muscle memory I already have.

Your thoughts?  Oh, I do shoot pistol with both eyes open, too.


Thanx!

[Xander]

Bump

Anyone have any comments or thoughts on how I should approach this?

[moebow]

Xander,

Not exactly sure what you are asking.  What pistol stance are you talking about?  If bulls eye then that is a good start but you will stand on the line 180 degrees to what you are used to.

I'd suggest you find some videos to look at and adapt what you know to shooting the bow.  Finding a hands on coach is always good.

As is often said ( and I agree) 50# is a lot to start out with, but I think no one is responding because your question is vague at best.

Arne

[Xander]

I shoot 10m AP.

I know I'm going to be turned around, but a few things I do in my pistol stance that I'm wondering about are, I rotate my back foot heel out to lock my stance and add tension to my lower half.

Upper half I tend to hold my spine straight and erect. I hold my chin up just ever so slightly to align my spine.

I have watched several videos already going over different echniques covering different parts of the body, but not many that put the together.

I like the analytical approach to the shoulder and drawing arm/bow arm, and I see many of the instinct shooting videos talk about stance but never the mechanics of drawing and anchoring with the stance.


I haven't decided yet if I'm going to shoot with a glove, tab, or possibly thumb ring, going to try out all three and see which feels best to me.


I do agree that 50# is a bit much to start with, but I scored the bow for $40 in very good conditon and don't have the money to really get anything else right now.  I am going to build a board bow, though, and am aiming for #40-#45 @29 maybe I'll get going on that and start off there.  In the mean time I am doing strength exercizes daily and not even touching the bow.

[moebow]

Sounds like you have a good start for stance and posture.  Not many here pay much attention to this and so it doesn't get talked about too much here.

The NTS (National Training System) goes into the idea of using core strength to shoot the bow so you might want to take a look at this link for starters.
 http://www.kslinternationalarchery.com/Technique/KSLShotCycle/KSLShotCycle-USA.html

I am not a firearms coach so don't know much about those techniques but in archery, an open stance to the target - hips inline with the feet, then a twist of the upper body (without moving the hips) to align the shoulders to the target increases your core tension and allows the rotational draw to be still more effective.

I show that twist to some extent in my videos but I don't dwell on it.  You Tube - "TheMoebow1" if you haven't seen them.

See if any of this helps.

Arne

[Xander]

Thank you for that link!  That is a very similar order of operations I use for pistol shooting.  I firmly believe that success comes much quicker through foundation.

The basis of twist in the torso looks like it will be an easy addition to a similar stance I use in pistol.  I stand at roughly 110-115 degrees to the target anyways, and rotating my aft shoulder away to align with the target should come naturally.

I will try out this posture sans bow to see how it feels.


Thanx for the help!

[Xander]

Ok, I have been using resistance bands to work on my form as described in the NTS link.

Some things I am finding about my body, I am standing a little open to the target, maybe 25* to 30* from having my hips inline.  I raise my bow arm and visualize the target, my bow arm is to the right of the target (right handed shooter) and I rotate it left to on target as I draw to my anchor point.  Fortunately, my drawing arm elbow is staying down nicely on its own.

Now, as I twist my torso to add tension, I am feeling uncomfortable pressure in my back and my hips rotate away following my torso.  I do have mild scoliosis and am wondering if this might be adding to the pressure I feel.

I haven't tried tensioning my lower half yet, as I am still trying to work on my torso.  I am practicing in front of a full size mirror and seeing my shoulders line up nicely, but its my hips rotating that has me concerned.  I am not feeling pain, but it is uncomfortable.  I will keep going to see if it is just a lack of muscle strength.

I do have a back support I use at work for lifting and am thinking of giving it a try, anyone here routinely shoot with one to help posture?

Thoughts or comments?

Thanx!

[moebow]

You might be a little too open to the target.  Especially if you have a physical problem.  Try starting square or just slightly open and then increase the "openness" to a "comfort level."  Yes, you will feel some pressure in the back but it should not be "uncomfortable" just that you know the pressure is there.  Try to keep your hips in line with the feet.  As you learn this shoulder turn without letting the hips move, it often helps to have someone stand behind you and hold your belt loops on each hip to get the feel.

As you start this, it is IMPORTANT that as you lift the bow that your bow hand STAYS ON AND SLIGHTLY ABOVE TARGET!!  DO NOT let it start on the left or right of the target and then swing to the target.  The arrow is pointing to the left but NOT THE BOW HAND!!!

As you draw you will see the ARROW ONLY rotate into alignment with the bow hand and target.

I will say Xander that the full NTS system is difficult to learn on your own.  Having someone that is proficient in it helping would be a really good thing.  I would suggest that you might see if you can find an NTS coach in your area that can help you  out.  there is a "coach locator " on the USA Archery website. I'd suggest a level 3 or higher if you can find one.
  http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/Certification/Coach-Locator  

Arne

[Xander]

Thank you for the tips!

I will say that I am not trying to go full-on with the NTS system, but more of trying to build a comfortable, repetable foundation based on solid biomechanics.  If I just shoot by "feel" as I see fit, it will take a long time to build a referrence to judge by.

I will mostly be doing club level tournaments and eventually hunting on occasion.  But I see no reason why this should change the effort put forth into my form.

Re: rotating the bow arm, gotit.  I was appearantly using both arms in rotation to draw, I will switch to having it on target and rotating string arm only.

Re: hips and torso rotation, I will adjust my stance to more inline and try that.  I have also added twist sit-ups to my workout to try and strengthen my obliques.  I'll see if the wife will hold onto my hips while I practice draw.

I have read that weight distribution should be towards the toe more than heel 60/40.  But what about from foot to foot?  Should I be equal or more on front foot?

I will refrain from adding tension to my lower half as of now, I am only adjusting my lower half to support the work I am doing on my torso.  When I feel it is repetable, I will try rotating my aft heel out to tension a bit and see how that helps.

Does this sound about right?


Thanx!

[moebow]

Equal weight distribution between the feet = don't lean or favor one foot. 60/40 is correct.

All the rest sound right.

Arne

[Xander]

Btw, thank you for the coach locator link, turns out there is a level 3 NTS coach just 20 minutes away!  I will contact them to see what they offer, they might even use the same proshop here in town.  Their name is Courtney, so I assume it's a woman, but I have met a man named the same before.

[Xander]

Ok after a couple hours of practice with the resistance bands, I have figured out what I'm feeling for when my hips want to rotate.  As I was drawing, I was trying to turn my torso and naturally my hips followed.  My elbow went up and I was routinely over drawing.  It took me a while before I realized this.

So, I stood infront of the mirror and went through the motions very slowly, inch by inch feeling what was happening at each movement.  I raised my bow arm to on target and slightly above.  I drew back and rotated string hand in to my anchor, bringing the "arrow" (still using resistance bands) in line.  As I consciously rotated my string arm shoulder around with my torso my hips followed suit.

Back tracking a step, I adjusted my stance to a little more inline and the uncomfortable pressure in my back is gone.  Thanx!

Ok, so I quit drawing the band and just put my arms out and twisted my torso to get a feel for keeping my hips in place.  Turns out rather than focusing on my shoulders and torso, I needed to focus on my hips!  

I went back to the bands and during my draw I focused on pushing my aft hip out during my draw, whaddya know, my shoulders, torso, and string arm all still rotated around as they should, my tensioned up nicely and comfortably bu my hips stayed in place!  By not mentally focussing on my torso, my elbow dropped back down, too.

So far, this feels good and I am building my check list of body movements and positions.

Btw, I have an old broken bow I am going to repair today that is only 35# draw, this should be perfect for building my form with the bow before jumping right into my 50# recurve.


Time for my morning workout, push-up, sit-ups, and elliptical trainer.


Does anything I describe sound off or deficient in my practice?

Thanx!

[Xander]

Oh, because I know the question will come up about me posting a video, I don't have internet at home and do all my internet work on my phone, so taking a decent video and posting it is rather troublesome.

[moebow]

Sounds like you are getting it.  Another way to "get the feel" is to stand with your butt against a wall.  Now just get the feel of rotating your shoulders.

I like that you are concentrating on MOVEMENT and not muscle groups.  It is difficult for most to actually activate a muscle or group of muscles.  Far easier to move bones and that activates the right muscle groups.

Arne

[Xander]

Thanx!  I just hope all this resistance band exercize translates over to using a bow, lol!  I do know for a fact from my pistol shooting that doing "dry runs" like this really does make a difference.  I hope to be proficient out to 40 yards within a years time, and able to be on target at 50 yards.  I don't pretend to claim a kill on a larger animal at those ranges, but more for club tournaments.  After all, distance is all about mental ability, the bow doesn't know how far its shooting!

I'm going to go a few more days with this practice and then turn to addressing the relationship between upper and lower half during draw.  Also trying uneven ground and inclines, hunting scenarios.

Once I feel comfortable with having a reasonable muscle movement program I will add the bow.

WooHoo!  My new arrows just arrived!  Damn, now its really going to be hard to practice without the bow!


Thanx!

[gunfixrjoe]

Are you the same Xander from Bladeforums?

[Xander]

Haha, Joe, you found me!

Even though I already spoke to you through other channels, I figured I would answer here also, to maintain continuity.


-Cheers!