Non reference aiming

[LongStick64]

Basically I don't want to start an argument over what is instinctive or not.
But for anyone that does not use the arrow or the bow as a reference, do you just look at the spot and block out everything else ?

[Jack Hoyt 75]

I'm not the expert by a long sho like some of the guys on this forum. I still have a lot to learn but good question and I will get it started and hope the expert add something we can all learn from.  

Total concentration and focus on a tiny spot. Aim small, miss small. I focus totally on the spot and point to the spot I want to hit. I never really even see the arrow tip.

My issue is that it works great under 15 to 20 yards then I start to lose confidence and am not calculating trajectory correctly or something because I stop grouping as well?

[Terry Green]

Don't worry about starting an argument.....it wont happen here.

Yes for me....I am so immersed in aiming that everything around me becomes a blur except the spot I want the arrow to hit.  Before that, I am so immersed in the shot window opening...when it does, sometimes I don't even remember drawing my bow.

Immersion goes from the window opening to the spot...however, I am aiming while waiting for the window to open well before the draw.

My draw never stops, its slows to a creep and is an evolution to execution.

[Terry Green]

Originally posted by Jack Hoyt 75:

My issue is that it works great under 15 to 20 yards then I start to lose confidence and am not calculating trajectory correctly or something because I stop grouping as well?

It can work WAY beyond the distances you quoted with time and effort.

I made this shot in a hunt camp 2012....right in front of 6 compounders....100 yards at midnight....instinctive.

Needless to say, it blew their minds, and one bowyer sold 6 tradbows because of it...I'm not even kidding...

     

[LongStick64]

Thanks Terry, nice shot by the way

[Jack Hoyt 75]

Thanks, nice shot and you are a lot better than me that's for sure!

[Mike89]

I try to focus on the spot to the exclusion of all else.  When I make my best shots, it's almost a surprise when an arrow springs from nowhere and into the spot I was looking at.  
It doesn't happen often, but I do know that as soon as I have a thought like, "my bow looks like it's too low" I'm going to miss

[Sam McMichael]

I think that consciously, or unconsciously, we all use the arrow as a reference. A gap shooter will deliberately align the shot using the arrow point as an aiming reference. The instinctive shooters will concentrate on the desired point of impact; however, even though they don't seek to use the arrow point, the brain will pick up on it in the peripheral vision (possibly without the archer even realizing it) and will automatically factor it in the shot.

This is just my opinion and is not backed up by any scientific deliberation, so I am not trying to start an argument or to insist that I am right.

[McDave]

Certainly some people use the arrow as a reference. Even some people who shoot instinctively use the arrow as a reference. Rick Welch, for example, who is an instinctive shooter, is aware of his sight picture in his peripheral vision, and the sight picture includes the front of the arrow.  Howard Hill's description of his split vision shooting method seems almost identical to Rick Welch's instinctive method, but Howard maintained that his method was not instinctive. Who am I to split hairs between two such illustrious shots?

Although many people do see the arrow when they aim, it is not necessary to do so. Nobody would say that a football or baseball player uses the ball as a reference, because it is simply not visible until it has left the hand.  By the same token, using a low anchor on a close shot, the arrow is simply too far below the target to be of much use as a reference.  Since I shoot gap for longer shots, I have experimented with using gap for 20 yard shots, but I have to go out of my way to notice the arrow point at that distance, and with the error that is introduced by trying to measure that large of a gap, I'm better off shooting instinctively. I can honestly say that I am not aware of the arrow point at all when shooting at close distances. Now at 30+ yards, when the arrow point is right there in my field of vision, I might as well use it because I'm going to notice it anyway.

And, I will say that I do pretty well using instinctive from about 25 yards in. Not shoot the spot off the ace of spades Las Vegas well; for that I'd have to work out a higher anchor point where my arrow point was close to the spot, but well enough to be comfortable hunting at those distances.

[tracker12]

I hear shooting a basketball and throwing a baseball as a comparison to instinctive shooting a lot of times.  The comparison does have some variables that we can not account for totally with instinct.  In both of those sports no other thing is between the item (basketball, baseball)and the hand.  In archery we happen to have a "Bow" that no matter how good our eye and hand coordination can be can cause problems.  Bad release, bad anchor ect.ect.  And we all thought it was easy.

[Scott Barr]

I really appreciate the points made about the two methods when comparing shorter versus longer distances.  I do pretty well instinctive shooting to 25 yards.  Then as i shift to being more aware of arrow location at longer yards I require more time for getting the site picture and my form more often breaks down.  How have you guys worked through this?  It seems Terry stays instinctive even out to 100 yes.

[ChuckC]

I believe that you are always aware of your arrow, consciously or not.  The part of being "instinctive" is that your brain takes a trained sight picture and goes with it, as opposed to intentionally aligning two or more aiming points.

"Instinctive" is just a name we gave the style and it has nothing to do with true instinct and everything to do with training your body and brain to react in a certain way given certain sight stimulus, same as most sports.

Terry is a real good shot because he has good natural ability, has developed good form and he practices enough to maintain the edge.

Not everybody can be as good, but most everybody can be pretty darn good if they do the same.

ChuckC

[cahaba]

I am more conscience of my draw hand at the top than the arrow. I just don't see the arrow but I do pick up on the position of the rest area right at the top of my hand. It is a small part of my sight picture.

[LongStick64]

I've been shooting this way now since I posted this thread and yes it can be done, just takes time to get it in sync with the noodle. I am keeping my shots at eastern hunting range and I only focus on the spot I want to hit and ignore everything else. I am setting up the shot as I have seen John Shulz do in the video he discusses how HH taught him and it is working very well. Feels natural and relaxed way to shoot. The two "tricks" for me is to use the shoulder square to the target and insure a solid anchor. It's very easy to start to snap shoot this way and not have an honest anchor. Not for everyone, and certainly not the only way to shoot, but for me it's working without using any scientific formulas.

[halfseminole]

I'm using it after my eye messed up, and I'm getting better with it, but I tend to take snap shots that are too short draw and miss them.  If I slow down I don't miss out to 15 yards, but I don't have enough room to try longer shots very well.  I just have to remind myself that I have all the time in the world, which is true as I'm permanently retired.