Possible Test for Doctor Ashby??

[bvalentine002]

Dr. Ashby,
I appreciate you chiming in on this thread. I appreciate and respect your analysis.

You make excellent points.

I was using this as an opportunity to keep the brain cells I have that are dedicated to math busy while quantifying something that admittedly cannot easily be reduced to a single number.

-Brett

[Terry Green]

Ed....I haven't killed 600 big game animals...but believe me when I say I've bow killed my share of whitetails.

"There's an old saying amoung gun hunters, "An animal lives between the shoulders"."

There's also an old saying among bowhunters "An animal dies behind the shoulder"  This is especially true with whitetails.....

         

So, I see NO reason for anyone to advocate aiming at the shoulder  of a whitetail as you can see.....the largest leathal vital area of a white tail is behind and below the shoulder.  

Also, a one inch cut width produces damage and trama...and a two inch width passing through the exact same channel will produce twice as much damage and more trama...just like a 300 mag will produce more trama and damage than a 22.  A 2 inch width will also offer more chance to cut vitals and arteries on a less than perfect shot, or animal movement.  And, there is NO written guarantee that a narrow two blade will penetrate the shoulder, especially on moving, rolling, wheeling on the shot deer.....and depending on the position of that shoulder will also determine whether the vitals are even hit.

Also, its provable that a slit can seal back up with a 2 blade much more so that same exact channel with a multi blade head....and that more blood will flow from more of a 'hole' than a slit.  The bigger the entrance hole, the more air can get in to let more blood out of the exit hole.  Again, I'm talking about shots passing through the exact same wound channel.

Not looking for an argument...just stating what I have found, and that I have a pretty good recovery rate on whitetails, and very short yardage tracking average with wide 4 blades.....and I never try to 'crowd the shoulder'.

[longbowben]

I love big snuffers big hole lots of blood short trail very big smile.  

[Guru]

Doc, Nothing but respect bud,but my findings have also been that a big multi bl. head will certainly inflict more damage, cut everything possible within it's path, and leave a lot more blood on the ground than a narrow 2 bl. bh. We're not talking shoulder hits here.....I'm talking about a wound channel thru the vitals....

 I talked with someone yesterday about this and he used a very good analogy:  If you drill 2 holes in a full 55gal. drum with a 3/4" bit, then drilled 2 holes in another drum with a 1 1/2" bit...which one will empty out quicker?

 I don't see the need to crowd the shoulder...no need to try to hit that far forward on any animal in NA...with the exception of hogs maybe. Low between the shoulders is best for the piggies.

This is a very good thread Rob    

[Ryan Rothhaar]

My experience (limited to around 50 big game animals myself and maybe 1.5X that bloodtrailing for others) agrees with Charlie, Terry and Curt.  I've always thought that guys worry too much about penetration on N.A. game (mostly the less experienced guys).....frankly most of our critters are not very hard to shoot through.  If you are not getting holes on both sides of a whitetail, and you are shooting 50lbs or better, you have a serious problem OTHER THAN your broadhead size/blades.  I've had only a very limited number of animals with only one arrow hole..and these were specific bone hits.  Pass through shots (meaning 2 holes) have been the norm up to and including Canada moose for my setups (generally 60-65 lbs, 600-700 gr arrows) with 160 grain Snuffers.  Ditto for whitetails and black bears with 50-55 lbs and 530-600 gr arrows when I was younger.  Interestingly the "hardest" animal I've ever shot in the U.S. was a muskox, 2 chest shots on him from approx 20 yards only reached the offside ribs.  Some tip rollover and impressive rib bones, tougher than a moose IMO.

I truly believe that there are WAY MORE animals lost that die from gut shots (penetration not an issue...you'll shoot virtually any arrow through this area) than on bone hits due to lack of penetration (these animals often recover as noted above).  In most areas we don't have the luxury of native trackers so the more sign you can get on the ground from a hit "a little too far back" will vastly increase the odds of finding your animal.....this is where the big multiblade heads shine.

Ryan

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

I love 2-blade heads, and have shot them exclusively for the past few years, but I still have to mostly agree with Charlie, Terry, Curt, Ryan and the like.

I've killed a bunch of critters with 2-blade heads (whietails, elk, a big S. Texas boar hog, a bull moose and a pile of small game). Penetration's never been an issue, including blowing through my moose after splitting a rib vertically. Out of all those animals, I've only had two bloodtrail problems.

One was with my hog, and quite honestly, had I remembered Curtis' advise about not shooting hogs like deer, I wouldn't have hit it through the liver in the first place. Mea culpla. Charlie, Curtis and I were able to find it the next day after a lot of careful tracking.

The other was a small whitetail buck that decided to take a step and turn toward me just as I dropped the string. I ended up hitting him in through the liver and out through the intestines...which clogged the exit wound. The deer ended up running into a few dozen acres of waist-high prairie grass. Some friends and I found him the next morning after a little grid searching and a lot of luck.

In hindsight, I've also had a few deer over the years that left very sparce trails. One that comes to mind was a double-lung pass through with a small 4-blade head. Another was a slightly quartering away doe I took through both lungs with a small 3-blade model. The first deer I heard expire, so trailing was a moot point. The second involved a lot of hands-and-knees crawling and looking for pinhead spots of blood.

That notwithstanding, all one has to do is look at Terry's diagram to see that there's a heck of a lot more room to go wrong on a deer away from bone than through it. And as much as I'm a big fan of 2-blade heads, if I screw up and hit something behind the diaphragm, I'd rather have a broadhead that resembles a meat cleaver than a pocket knife.

[el oso]

I'm new to the sport, been shooting in the back yard for about a year. My sister asked me what I wanted for Xmas and I told her I wanted a block style broadhead target.....Next step, get some broadheads. I was going to post a BH question and get a few suggestions, then make a decision. then I started reading this post and thought cool this should give me all the info need. Boy did I get info. my simple mind is going in 10 diferent directions.2 BLADE,3 BLADE,4BLADE,WIDE,NARROW,SERRATED,SINGLE BEVEL,BLEEDERS,SNUFFERS...........MY HEADS GONNA EXPLODE!     But I love it! Y'all keep talking and I'll keep reading.

[tradtusker]

here are a few observation iv made

i think the bigger the wound channel the better.

but there are so many variables that i dont think there is a definate answer, but with an open mind constructive view everyone can benefit for different points of view.

say you shoot a deer and get a pass through with a 4blade compared to getting a pass through with a 2blade(in the same place), the 4 blade would cause more damage due to the lager cutting serface and extra blades, so you would expect the deer that is shot with the 4blade to bleed more and die faster.

then say you shoot a deer but you do not get a pass through, but you accept that a 2 blade penetrates better than a 4blade. So say with the same set up the 4 blade penetrates 8" and the 2blade penetrates 12". well even through the 4blade have penetrated 4" less than the 2blade it have it has caused more damage over the first 8" then the 2blade would, however the 2blade has penetrated an extra 4" therefore making up for the smaller cut because its traveled further allowing it to cut more.

and on, and on it could go.....101 ways to skin a cat!

[Littlefeather]

Joshua, These threads are as old as old as the invention of the internet. I love to read them but I very seldom take part any more. I was just like you not so long ago and because I had very limited knowledge and noone to ask for help I was constantly searching for the "correct" arrow, broadhead and longbow. The fact remains the same all these years later. We participate in a very individualistit sport/lifestyle. As you can clearly see by the caliber of the Archers here who after many big game kills and many years in the woods still cannot agree on something so simple as a broadhead. Well, maybe it isn't so simple afterall. The one thing that is the most simple of all is to go out and purchase a good brand name broadhead and simply shoot it. If it's in the vidals the animal will die. If it's a bad hit or not where you intended it to hit then it's up to you and God to find the animal. Fact is you won;t ever truly know if a different broadhead would have done better or worse. There is no EXACT duplication in real hunting situations. It's best to get a little experience shooting a brand name and then experiment as the years go by.

If you ever watch the kill pics I post you'll see one common denominator. I use lots of different broadheads. Know why? I don't know which one is best either. The one thing I do know is that if the head I'm shooting is rasor sharp and through the heart or lungs the critter is very dead. I try and avoid guts and bone. When I miss, I miss. I just hope when that does occur that I was using the "right" broadhead and God is guiding my efforts to find my wounded quary.

Read the threads. Enjoy the argument and speculation, value all input by those guys who've shot lots of game, and most of all develop your own style starting now. There isn't a wrong broadhead or wrong arrow, etc. There is simply a starting point to your future education in this sport/lifestyle. You'll find your way just fine if you just don't take all this "which one" business to heart.

Thanks for all you do Ed. Thanks to the rest of you guys too for shooting all those different broadheads. I love all the input! CK

[paradocs]

I don't hunt the big stuff; deer only for me, exclusively from the ground.  Broadhead choice always seems to be contentious, and I doubt that'll ever change.  It's a series of trade-offs, and the variables will boggle the mind...equipment, shot angle, structures hit, etc., etc.  Ultimately, on the classic "double-lung" shot, it matters little.  Hypoxia, or lack of oxygen, puts them down fast, and with that particular shot, the resulting pneumothorax is, imo, at least as responsible as hemorrhage for achieving this; maybe more so.  So I'm looking for that complete pass-through.  On the other hand, I shoot relatively moderate poundage, have a short draw, and am a dedicated back quiver user (ever tried to extract a Snuffer from a proper back quiver?   ), so a 2-blade is my choice.  My compromise is a large 2-blade, specifically the Ace Super Express...like Jason said, it's practically a flying cleaver.  On a heavy arrow, penetration is a non-issue on deer, and in the event of a non-chest hit, I can still count on that head to do alot of damage; pretty good wound channel, good penetration through an acorn-filled paunch to deeper structures, decent bone-busting ability.  That's my compromise, and I'm stickin' to it.....though I realize that others' mileage will almost certainly vary  

[Terry Green]

Tradtusker...yeah, I hear ya.

What if you could have a complete pass through on EVERY deer(bunches and bunches) you ever shot with a big 4 blade, except for those where the off shoulder or off leg was hit???

I have.

 So, I know for a fact my head has done more damage than a narrow two blade would have on the deer I shot....and it also makes for short order recovery in these thick n nasty thickets we have he and the lack of native trackers   :D  

.........

Yeah Curtis....these threads are always fun....and Ed's Studies are very interesting to read.


There is no magic head for all game...b'heads are tools, and you gotta choose the right one for the job at hand.  My set ups allows me to shoot  4 blades through deer like they are made of paper. Different game and I choose a different head.

And, arrows aren't bullets.....gotta keep that in mind.

[Littlefeather]

I like this analogy.  

There is no magic head for all game...b'heads are tools, and you gotta choose the right one for the job at hand. My set ups allows me to shoot 4 blades through deer like they are made of paper. Different game and I choose a different head.

And, arrows aren't bullets.....gotta keep that in mind  

[tradtusker]

yip your dead right Terry!    

and yes most of the native trackers i'v worked with and hunted with sure do make short work of making you feel like and idiot and how little you know tracking alongside them  :rolleyes:  

----------------------
CK
 "There is no EXACT duplication in real hunting situations."
i definately agree with that!