Looking for ideas - erratic shooting disorder

[Marshallrobinson]

This post is directed towards an issue that my wife is having. She is at the end of her wits and I am out of solutions. This is going to be long winded because I think it is important to go step by step over what we have done and what the results have been. Here we go...

Around a year ago she started shooting a recurve. 20# samick off the shelf with arrows properly tuned to that bow. She stayed with this set up for 2 months, sighting via gap method. The improvement over that period of time and strength gained told her that she was ready to move up and I saw no reason not to agree. Her ability (at that time) to group arrows was on and off and mostly due to shooting cross dominant due to the fact that she injured her shoulder years ago and has to do this with any bow. She was also wearing glasses at the time which had her anchor in a not so good place as far as being able to find a great reference point.

She moved to a 25# samick recurve and continued improving after getting herself comfortable with closing her dominant eye. Without This eye closed, she would err about a 1.5' to the left (left eye dominant shooting right) and could even pull good groups to the left. She went to a tab and then back to a glove during this time, in an attempt to better her groups. Some days would be very good and others would be very bad with lefts showing up here and there. She swore that the lefts were happening even with the left eye closed. I can say for a fact that the bow was not to heavy for her but in truth, I couldn't verify that...just believed it.

2 months later she purchases a 35# recurve (pse) and is doing better. She would have longer times in between errors but when errors occurred, the left was the culprit. She broke down, bought contacts and found a very solid anchor point higher on her face which she could find easily each time. Her performance went way up and now her bad days were outnumbered by her bad days. Then suddenly, the bad days started to come back in abundance and out of now where. Nothing had changed in her routine at that time. At this time, she was using the point of the arrow in reference to point of aim and would sometimes complain that when a left err occurred, the point of the arrow had not changed from the location of where it was when no err was present.
Now the frustration level began rising and causing her to just have awful practice sessions.
I had a method which incorporates a flipper and we went to this. The method is still gap but the shooter uses the end of the flipper to act as a pin if you will, which is a smaller point of focus (at the bow) and can be a lot more precise in the aiming method.
She did outstanding with this....for about a week and then it all fell apart. Removed the flipper and went back to the shelf. It seems that the flipper became to precise and target panic ensued. Oh well    :(  

3 months has gone by since the introduction of the last bow and she is getting a sloppy release due to the bow just being to light for the deep hook she preferred to use on the string. New gloves and tabs gained her nothing and so we bought another, heavier bow. This one was a 45# Recurve (cant remember the make) and that solved that problem. Now she was getting very clean releases and again the bad days became fewer although still there and out of nowhere when they occurred. 2 more months with solid gains but no elimination of the lefts.

The next bow was a 45# longbow and this bow was the silver bullet for the lefts. She was so happy and I was so happy for her. We started going to 3D shoots with large turnouts in attendance and she would be in the top five every time. She even won one!. Same gap method of aiming and using a glove. It was magical!
And then the lefts came back. Slowly at first but soon it was as if she were back to shooting the recurve. Same everything and the releases were getting sloppy again due to the bow just being to light for a clean release from the glove. Again to the tab but to no avail. The tab actually made things worse and she dumped that in a hurry. Total time with the longbow, maybe 2 months.

Go to Denton hill and meet Mike Fedora who had a bow that fit her hand like it was made for her. Mike took a good deal of time with her and saw her being stable and shooting very well at a weight of 44# and so, we left there with her Fedora sickle.
She was shooting soooo good!. She used the thumb rest as it was intended to be used and this made such a difference. Lefts gone for good it seemed ... right up till last week. The lefts are crazy and erratic.I had to confirm visually that her eye was closed...thats how bad things went down hill. I suggested trying the longbow just to see if that would improve anything and it did not. No worse and no better.

editing this because I forgot some important stuff.
She shoots static. She bought the complete set of masters of the barebow, studied it, tried everything and static is the best for her no doubt.

She also began weight training with a 68# (52#@ her draw length) longbow which I thought she shot as well as the Fedora...before everything went to heck. She stopped that some time before this last bout so that bow isn't the culprit IMO anyway.
Also I would add that she can shoot my 78# longbow and my 70# mamba recurve as well as anything but only for a few shots. IMO (doesn't mean I am right) she seems to do better with a heavier bow but her shoulder cant take that kinda stress so I am not pushing that.

I am now at a loss. Idea's that we could try?.

I have all the information if someone needs to know and I haven't already put it down here. This is important to her and myself. Even an educated shot in the dark would be better than nothing.

[moebow]

Marshall,

Nice full description but not totally helpful like a video or two would be.

To me, it sounds like there is a release technique problem that is only being masked by increasing draw weight.  A deep hook release, if performed well, will be as effective with a 15# bow as it is with a 45#/55# or 65# bow.

Yes, I am aware that many don't believe that and rely on the heavier draw weight to solve release problems.  I see that as a little like putting a band aid on your forehead to cure a headache.

You probably know what comes next from a coach.  She shoots well for a while with the change in equipment (bow, tab/glove, heavier weight, etc) then the same old problem reoccurs.  SOMETHING in her form or shot execution is creeping back into the shot after the "new toy" syndrome has worn off.  I'd go so far as to say that looking for new equipment to solve what appears to be a consistent execution problem won't help much if any.

This coach's recommendation would be to go back to the lighter bow and figure out what form or execution technique is changing over time. And figuring out how to improve the technique.

Another thought is with a static release, the chance of a collapsing shot is there and can also cause the unexplained "lefts."

These are just thoughts I have from reading the post.  A couple of good detailed video angles will help quite a lot.  One face to face and one from behind and elevated looking down would be a good start.

Hope you can figure this out -- it can be frustrating.  Good luck!!

Arne

[Marshallrobinson]

Thanks so much. You are correct about the new stuff masking whatever it is. Done this myself and still do. When I develop an issue I just go straight to another shooting style that I do well and the problems are solved. wait a day or two, go back to the standard and it's fixed. I have never been able to pin point my issue and instead just switch up often.
Adding weight for her was a two prong approach to getting her to hunting weight some day as well as getting that string out of her hand. I will keep in mind what you said, pertaining to deep hook not requiring a good deal of weight or that is to say, weight is not needed.

Her...she cant do that.
One thing that comes to mind since you have gotten me to thinking more about it is that she shot a compound for many years and developed that perfect upright posture that does cause lefts for her, when she is shooting a stick. What happens is that the bow arm (on release) goes left and so does the arrow obviously. It has been so ingrained that she will occasionally just go into that stance and the arrow will go left every time. The solution was to round the shoulders and hunch into the string, which puts it very close to the eye and this (as I said) seemed to be a big plus for her.
My thinking is that if you cannot replicate that stance then you cannot replicate it's positives. If you have ever seen Barry Wensel shoot then you will be able to visualize her stance. I shoot the same way myself but my muscle memory is perfect and I always end up that same way no matter what position I am in.
What do you think?. Could this newly added (2 months ago?) position of the upper body be complicating things?

[moebow]

I am not a fan of the rounded shoulders and hunched into the string -- NOT saying it won't work, just that I don't like it.

The best initial answer I can give you would be to refer you ( and your wife) to some videos I did a while back as the way I shoot and teach shooting.

If you haven't seen them, it may be worth your while to take a look.

 https://www.youtube.com/user/TheMoebow1/videos

Arne

[Marshallrobinson]

outstanding!. Thank you so much for the link. I will check this right out.
Like I said... I am open for anything that will help. She has put in so much time and effort and has been open to everything, so changing/trying something new isn't an issue. It cant stay like it is and thats a fact.


 

Originally posted by moebow:
I am not a fan of the rounded shoulders and hunched into the string -- NOT saying it won't work, just that I don't like it.

The best initial answer I can give you would be to refer you ( and your wife) to some videos I did a while back as the way I shoot and teach shooting.

If you haven't seen them, it may be worth your while to take a look.

  https://www.youtube.com/user/TheMoebow1/videos  

Arne

[McDave]

To look at your wife's problem from a broader perspective, from what you describe, she has reached a fairly high level of shooting, ending up in the top five in 3D shoots with large turnouts, and also being able to shoot bows in higher poundage ranges than a lot of women (and some men) feel comfortable with. My experience is that when people reach that level, slumps of the kind you describe can be expected.  It is a rare person who can be consistently good all the time, regardless of the level of competency. Look at Tiger Woods: he went from unbeatable to barely qualifying to enter, and he can probably go back to unbeatable again, if he wants to bad enough.

So since your wife tends to be a normal person with ups and downs, which also describes my own shooting, her goal should be to be able to understand why they happen.  I have learned to identify about five common errors I make repeatedly, and now that I know how to do that, I can correct them as soon as I make them, rather than wasting shot after shot wondering why. What a relief that is!

Arne is correct.  Any of us who have been shooting for a while could guess at why she is missing from what you wrote, and if we guess wrong, we could actually be doing more harm that good, because if you try to fix something that ain't broke, usually you end up with two things that are broke rather than one. A good coach like Arne can look at somebody shoot and come up with the right answer most of the time.  That is particularly true when a person has reached a high level of proficiency, like your wife has, since she is probably only doing some subtle thing wrong, rather than having to tell some beginner, "well, these are the ten main things you need to work on...."

I'm a little concerned that her increase in bow weight may be causing some of her problems, even though you feel like it may be helping.  As Arne says, with good form, a person should be able to control a low poundage bow as well (or better) than a higher poundage bow.

[Marshallrobinson]

Thanks for all the input. I am sure she will appreciate it as I do. Please feel free to fire away with anything. We are sponges at this point  :D

[Marshallrobinson]

moebow ...

Well we watched the videos and before I go on...
Those were outstanding!. I have seen instruction (on film) that attempted to show what you did but we could both see so much better what you were doing and your verbal prompts were excellent!. This helped a lot!!

So, out she goes while it is fresh in her mind and does just what you said and just how she saw it. So far so good and this works much better with her normal upright stance. She is going to work on this for awhile and we will see what happens.
Thank you so much for your assistance. We have somewhere to go now  

She practiced this split finger because she wanted to replicate everything you did. She normally shoots 3 under. Any special considerations for this?.

[moebow]

I'm VERY glad that videos helped!  As with all new/different things it will take a little time to settle in.

As far as split Vs. 3 under --No, no difference.  I feel that split finger gives a little better control of the arrow (personal opinion) but 3 under is very popular and effective.

Frankly, there should be NO difference in execution!!  The different positions are really just an accommodation for aiming and should have NO effect on execution.

Let us know how it's going from time to time.  Good shooting!

Arne

[Marshallrobinson]

Will do and thanks again.
She did say that she felt the split finger might be giving her better control but I am sure she will go back and forth until she finds what works best for her. I am keeping my fingers crossed as she tried this before and it worked for a short time. But with that said, she was not doing what she is doing now. As I said.. Your demo was much better and she picked up some important points to focus on that she did not pick up on before.

[Marshallrobinson]

So far, so good Moebow. Great groups in yesterdays walk back. I think you have helped her a lot  

[tracker12]

No sure I want to meet the wife in an Alley if she is drawing a 78# longbow:)   I'm with Arne when my accuracy goes to H&ll its usually an anchor an release problem.