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Author Topic: a clicker, back tension question  (Read 1083 times)

Offline Dan Jones

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a clicker, back tension question
« on: April 22, 2015, 02:26:00 PM »
For about the 100th time, I've put a clicker on the bow in order to deal with the damn panic.

For about the 100th time, I'm unable to consistently get through the clicker.  I understand that its bascically a push/pull technique, but for whatever reason success escapes me. Alone or in combination, I've tried pinching the shoulder blades together, pulling the draw elbow straight back or back and around, pushing the bow into the target, expansion by inhaling deeply, loud cursing etc. etc., but all to no avail. I guess the root of the problem is that despite years and years in archery, I've never really gotten down the whole back tension business.

Any help that you can provide me on this will be greatly appreciated.

Offline Northwest_Bowhunter

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Re: a clicker, back tension question
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2015, 03:15:00 PM »
Hi Dan,
What is the draw weight of your bow? Can you hold it for several seconds after you reach anchor?

After I hit my double anchor I hold long enough to finish "expanding" my draw, this is where my back is pulling my elbow around.  I am sure this is all stuff you have tried.

This is what helped me get everything straight:
  http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=005155;p=1  
-
Michael

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Offline Dan Jones

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Re: a clicker, back tension question
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2015, 04:09:00 PM »
Northwest Bowhunter: The draw weight on the bow I'm using is 33# and I can comfortably hold it at full draw for a reasonable length of time.

I read the topic you underlined. It's the "expanding" or "expansion" part of the shot sequence that I don't seem able to do.

Thanks for your help.  Dan Jones

Offline Dan Jones

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Re: a clicker, back tension question
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2015, 04:49:00 PM »
Northwest Bowhunter:  After I reach anchor(or "reference point") the arrow doesn't move forward or backward -  it just stays there until I can no longer comfortably hold. I can jerk the arrow back through the clicker, but then I get an "explosion" and the arrow typically goes high and right. (left hand shooter)

Apparently I must consciously do something to expand the draw.  The problem is I've never found exactly what that "something" is or I've never been able to do it correctly.

I hope I'm making some sense here!

Offline moebow

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Re: a clicker, back tension question
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2015, 06:32:00 PM »
Dan,

The clicker can be really tough sometimes.  You don't mention if you are using a string clicker or a spring clicker, but either one needs to be set exactly right for it to function as it should.  

For the Oly style shooters, the normal progression is shooting bare bow first to cement form and shot sequence, then they add a stabilizer and continue form and shot sequence training.  Then a sight is added and FINALLY, at the end, a clicker is added.  In this arena, the clicker must be set on the arrow point about 2mm or 1/8th inch short of the tip of the arrow.  It is a VERY SMALL movement that actuates the clicker.

A string clicker must be about as exact as that and your shot execution must really be good.  Expansion can be described in 2 ways that I know of.  One is to press your sternum out just a LITTLE which is a way of "expanding" your chest.  The other is to move your string shoulder around your spine still farther which in turn PUSHES your bow shoulder and arm out.  The arrow, string and string hand do not move -- just the bow arm GETS PUSHED towards the target.

Neither technique moves the arrow, only the bow arm and hence the bow move towards the target.

I know many feel that a clicker is a cure for TP, and I don't doubt that.  But I would suggest that your form, shot execution and shot sequence that lead to clicker activation will also go a LONG ways to TP reduction.

Without seeing you shot, all I can offer are these generalized descriptions.  Rather than trying to solve the problem on your own, if you can find a coach there to help, you will be ahead of the game.

Arne
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Offline LongStick64

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Re: a clicker, back tension question
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2015, 06:44:00 PM »
The issue may be that you are stopping at your anchor and then attempting to restart the pulling. Very difficult thing to do. I played with clickers and they worked best when I didn't try to stop and go.
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Offline Dan Jones

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Re: a clicker, back tension question
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2015, 09:22:00 AM »
Thanks very much to all for their replies to my question.  Dan Jones

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Re: a clicker, back tension question
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2015, 02:07:00 PM »
Curious... can you pull thru the clicker, without issue, with no arrow on the string?

Online McDave

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Re: a clicker, back tension question
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2015, 06:59:00 PM »
I had an interesting hour on the phone with Joel Turner the other day that helped clarify a lot for me. The first thing he said, and I guess what he says to everyone now, is that his method wouldn't work for me to solve target panic. Nor would a clicker or anything else.  The only thing that would work would be if I worked for IT.  This isn't just motivational mumbo jumbo, but means something very specific, as I'll explain.

As we learn archery, or any hand eye coordination sport, more and more of the movements become automatic: they are not directed by conscious thought. Driving a car is a good example: you make tiny speed changes or course corrections before the errors grow to the point that a conscious decision would be required.  In fact, if we have to interrupt this automatic flow, our movements become awkward.  For example, a basketball player at the free-throw line suddenly becomes aware of everyone looking at him and so he clutches, meaning that he loses his easy flow of movement and has to start thinking about what he needs to do to make the shot, and of course he misses it.

In the case of the driver or the basketball player, it is desirable to stay in the automatic mode because if they start consciously thinking about what they need to do, their performance suffers.  Such it would be with the archer too, if it were not for target panic.  Unfortunately, the automatic mode of shooting the bow allows the sub-conscious to shortcut the process of drawing and aiming.  

Something needs to interrupt this automatic flow to stop target panic.  The clicker takes the decision of when to fire out of our mind and makes it external, but it doesn't change our automatic mindset of drawing and shooting the bow.  The clicker is going to go off predictably, and it doesn't take the sub-conscious mind long to figure that out.  What is needed is a disconnect between the sub-conscious and the conscious at the critical moments before the shot is fired.  While it would benefit the basketball player to be able to stay in the automatic mode, it would benefit the archer with target panic to be able to break free from it, at least for the few moments right before the shot goes off.

I didn't like Joel's method at first because I've worked hard to expand my awareness of what my whole body is doing during the shot process, and I didn't want to lose that and concentrate all of my attention on "pulling."  It doesn't make sense to lose the overall awareness you have gained from shooting the bow for a long time; you use that awareness to identify and correct problems before they ruin your shot.   Nor does it make sense to have that awareness, but blow the shot because target panic keeps you from completing it.  So how do you have both?  Is it possible to have your cake and eat it too?  Yes!

You do this by switching gears at the last moment of the shot.  As you draw and aim the bow, your awareness is broadly focused on all aspects of the shot and aiming.  You are drawing the bow with no commitment to shoot it at this time. Generally, people with target panic can draw and aim the bow if they don't intend to shoot it. If you notice anything wrong with any aspect of your shot sequence, you let down the bow.  If you draw the bow to anchor and you are satisfied with everything, you proceed to phase two.

In phase two, you narrow your focus to just two things: concentrating on pulling until your psychotrigger goes off while looking at the target to hold your aim. This is where YOU work for the SYSTEM, as opposed to vice-versa. During this phase, which lasts no more than a few seconds, you have to maintain sufficient conscious control over the shot that you could stop the shot at any moment until the psychotrigger goes off. You have to develop immediate awareness of any distractions or thoughts that might enter your mind, and be able to stop the shot if that happens.  A mantra can be helpful during this phase to block conscious thoughts or distractions.

Somehow I let myself believe that I either had to be totally aware during the entire shot, or totally focused on pulling during the entire shot.  Total awareness didn't work because it invited target panic; total focus didn't work because I lost awareness of problems in my shot sequence. Total awareness followed by 2 seconds of total concentration does work, because I have the benefit of both.

I was a little anxious the first morning I tried this, because it sounds hard to shift gears during the final few moments of the shot.  But to my joy, I actually felt more relaxed and in control from the first shot I tried doing this.  It seems more natural to me than what I was doing, and my accuracy has improved.  Ideally, a person should be able to do both: shoot methodically at stationary targets and shoot fluidly at moving targets or in a timed competition, but licking target panic comes first.

No target panic yet.  Of course, this is new for me and I have tried other things that have "cured" target panic for a while.  This feels right to me, and I'll keep you posted.
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Offline Dan Jones

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Re: a clicker, back tension question
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2015, 11:57:00 AM »
Jim Casto Jr. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I've tried all of the ways that I've heard  of to pull, push, expand, rotate etc.etc. but consistency eludes me. One successful shot is followed by two attempts where I just can't get the clicker to click no matter what. Joel Turner says "Keep Pulling". But exactly how?

McDave: How do you pull?

Dan Jones

Offline damascusdave

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Re: a clicker, back tension question
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2015, 04:02:00 PM »
I like watching YouTube videos of FITA shooters just to see the different ways they approach their shot routines...maybe the one common element is how they "activate" a clicker...you might gain some insight from doing that

DDave
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Online McDave

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Re: a clicker, back tension question
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2015, 06:26:00 PM »
One thing you said in your original post needs to be resolved: "despite years and years in archery, I've never really gotten down the whole back tension business." If you aren't using back tension, once you learn to use it you will probably be able to activate a clicker.  Plus shoot a lot better, which is more important.  So get a Formaster, take a class from Rod Jenkins, or do whatever you need to do to make sure you are using back tension.

I can activate a clicker by increasing back tension and expanding my chest, which gives me the extra 1/8" or so of draw I need to set the clicker off. However, I prefer to use a dead release and have as little movement as possible prior to releasing the arrow, so I don't use a clicker.

Joel Turner's method does not depend on using a clicker: any non-anticipatory psychotrigger will do.  He uses the feather touching his nose as his trigger.  I also use the feather touching my nose as an anchor and a draw check, but when the feather touches my nose all movement stops so I can't use it as a trigger.  With my dead release, I have to use a trigger that is not related to movement of the arrow.

Many people who use Joel's method do use a clicker, however, and he approves of the clicker as a non-anticipatory psychotrigger, so long as people understand that it will not cure target panic, since it doesn't address the root cause.

So what I would encourage you to do is to learn to use back tension, which may or may not solve your problem with the clicker.  Once you're sure you understand back tension, you may not even want to use a clicker.  If that is the case, there are many other triggers you can try, and even try using the dead release, if you want to.  Just be aware that the dead release requires just as much use of back tension as the dynamic release.
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Offline Dan Jones

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Re: a clicker, back tension question
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2015, 11:18:00 AM »
Thanks again to all who replied.

End of subject.

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