Bow arm sholder rotation

[Petter]

Hello everybody
This is my first post on this forum. I have only been shooting my bow for about 2 months so Im a real newbie in the archery world.
Im from Norway, so bear with me my bad English.
I have read most threads here in the form forum and it has helped me a lot. I have watched alot of  youtube videos, but there is a couple of things(many) I still havent figured out that I hope you gurus can help me out with.
Here we go:
Bow arm sholder. I understand that I have to align the line between my sholders so its parallel to the arrow, or even points to the bow hand. I rotate my elbow so it is in the right position, but should I also roll my sholder in towards the bow, or should i keep it natural like when im standing right up and down with my arm lifted to my side.? I feel that I get a lower sholder and better bone to bone conection with my sholder rolled in. But is this correct? I havent seen this discussed anywhere, sorry if its been up before.

Petter

[moebow]

Welcome Petter!

Let's first define a "rolled" shoulder.  To me, it is keeping the collar bone still in relation to the sternum (breast bone) and the shoulder.

Try this experiment.  Stand with your shoulders in a totally relaxed position. Place your hand on the bow side collar bone so you can feel the bone.  Now, move just the bow shoulder forward -- feel the collar bone move forward (it kind of lifts out of your chest)? Next, start from a relaxed position again and move the shoulder up.  Feel the bone move again (up this time)?  That is the definition I use to describe a "rolled" shoulder.  A "rolled" shoulder in this context is not good.

Back to the relaxed shoulders again, hand on the collar bone.  This time TURN your shoulders by twisting your upper body.  See how the bone doesn't move in relation to the sternum or shoulder; it simply moves WITH the shoulder but stays in the same relative position compared to the sternum and shoulder.

It is this second movement you are looking for to align your shoulders for the shot as you describe above.  Both shoulders turn together moving the collar bone with them.

This turn of the shoulders (together) is early in the draw sequence (gives you about half your draw for free) the rest of your draw is the string side shoulder moving back independently to complete the draw.

Ideally, if you start with your shoulders down and relaxed, that is where they should end up.  Rolling is a common error I feel many make but you will be in a stronger position if you don't "roll" the shoulder.

Arne

[Woodeye]

A great question from Petter and another huge hunk of great instruction, advise and guidance from one of the best. I've learned so much here and it is reflected in my shooting and fun factor ( read that less frustration) in my archery.

[mahantango]

Great explaination!

[Petter]

Thank you Arne.
I think I understand. My sholder at full draw should be close to what it is like when relaxed and arms down. What I did was rotate the sholder clockwise. My sholder was in the same position as if you hold your bow arm out and rotate it as much as you can clockwise, than the sholder will rotate a bit with it. I can not feel my collarbone move very much when I do this.
You have a very Norwegian name by the way:-)

Petter

[moebow]

Yes, I'm a 4th generation Norwegian American.  ALL those 4 generations are Norwegian.  Ancestors are from the Bergan and Stavanger areas.

Arne

[Bladepeek]

An off-topic comment if I may? An apology for "bad English" from someone who could probably teach it in any American college was good for a big smile

[dnurk]

Question for you, Moe, if I may.    I've watched a number of your Youtube videos (excellent and super helpful by the way) and think I understand the concept of rotational draw pretty well.  

Above you say that during the start of the draw both shoulders are turning together.  I'm assuming you mean they are both rotating back and around to the right for a RH shooter....

Do do that are you suggesting starting with your shoulders a bit more open to the target?  That is, if you use Terry's form clock above where the shoulders end up with back tension and a line between them goes from 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock, do you suggest starting with that line between the shoulders from like 10 to 4 o'clock?  And that as you start the draw they'll come around together?

If so, I'm thinking that my initial setup might have my shoulders too close to the desired end position instead of starting a bit more open and BOTH shoulders coming around.

[moebow]

Yes dnurk.  Shoulders are open to the target at the beginning which gives you the "turn" capability.  That's the "half draw for free."  Turn your shoulders from open to square and just that gives you that half of the draw. Your feet and hips stay open.

You rotate around the spine (waist up) so the bow shoulder moves forward towards the bow and the string shoulder moves back away from the bow.

As you learn this, do it in small increments; like 11 to 5 o'clock first then a little more open as you get the feel/idea.

Shoulders square to the target just doesn't give you "turn" capability as much but you can still use the rotational draw.

Arne

[dnurk]

Thanks Arne.  Makes total sense.   I have always focused primarily on getting my string shoulder back and around but haven't given much thought to the fact that they should be turning together.   Starting with my bow arm shoulder pointing too much at the target and not getting as much rotation as a result most likely.  I think if I shot video from above I would be in the 11 to 5 line.  Going to try a bit more squared up to start the draw sequence and see how it goes.

Will give it a whirl tonight after dinner in the yard.

[Petter]

When at full draw, should I push my bow hand towards the target stretching my arm and sholder out? (I have seen this recommended somewhere)
Problem is I kind of feel my collar bone move up when I do this like Arne explained. I feel like I get a better bone to bone connection if I just keep my bow arm squeezed between my bow and my upper body, still trying to maintain a low sholder.

Petter

[moebow]

" I feel like I get a better bone to bone connection if I just keep my bow arm squeezed between my bow and my upper body, still trying to maintain a low sholder."

YES!  In the system I teach this is what you want.  Our shoulder is not really made to "push" out towards the target and doing so will generally decrease the strength and stability of the entire bow side of the body.

Arne

[Petter]

Thank you Arne. I guess listening to the body often gives the right solution.

Petter

[jackdaw]

Great thread...!! Arne...can you  post a little video on here explaining it..??? Pic is with a thousand words...it woild be valuable...:-D....jackdaw

[moebow]

jackdaw,

I think this video shows it best.  Done with a rubber band rather than a bow to emphasize the movement.  

Arne

[jackdaw]

Thank you Arne....that helps A LOT....You are a very valuable asset to this forum..!!!!.....jackdaw