Form Critique - Updated

[RedRidge]

Well its about time I let you all take a peak at my form and point me in the right direction. To caveat I have been trying to get full expansion with my back muscles since I thought i have been short drawing. Here is the first picture of an overhead view. After comparing the two to me it almost looks like I am overdrawing since my shoulders are not in line. Any suggestion on this first pic.    

[fnshtr]

Looks to me like your bow arm shoulder is collapsed and rolled to the inside.

Please wait on comments from someone more qualified than I.

[moebow]

Yes, for a "classical" position the bow shoulder is too far in towards the bow.  As shown in Terry's picture, a line across both shoulders should extend right down the bow arm.  Look up Archerywinchester's video, "The Wedge."

Arne

[fnshtr]

Great video Arne, I had never seen that before. I think proper alignment is one of the most critical aspects of shooting well.

[RedRidge]

Thank you! I will take a peak and see if I can shake this. More to follow.

[RedRidge]

I watched the video and understand the concept, but I think the hard part for me is to not collapse my bow shoulder. I changed some things up and took another video. I do feel like I am getting into my back muscles and getting my release arm in line, but my bow arm shoulder is not parallel to the arrow. I can see it, but fixing is the challenge. I think I am close, but if you more experienced lads can continue to add some improves I am all ears. Thanks again.
   

 

[moebow]

RR,  That's better.
The line from string shoulder to bow shoulder to bow hand should be a line that crosses the arrow line like your photo shows.  That is one leg of the triangle and is BONE support for bow weight.

The second leg is the upper string arm, again, a bone for strength.

The final leg is the line from the bow hand (arrow rest) to the arrow nock to the string arm elbow.  That part is like a chain that is straight due to the tension of the bow.

Your string arm elbow COULD be around a little more to make that line straight, BUT that is a function of the string hand wrist position. And you are pretty close here so don't stress over that too much.

If you work on this for a while (until it feels more natural) you will experience a more solid shot and the perceived reduction of bow weight at full draw due to the bones supporting the bow and not muscle.

I agree, from the picture, you are definitely using back tension (muscle)!

Arne

[RedRidge]

Thanks Moe. As always your advice and mentorship on here is greatly appreciated. Its like a light bulb went off when I was practice drawing in the mirror without a bow. It all started with the drawing motion. Once I discovered the correct way I can really feel the bone on bone alignment and man has it helped in just 2 days. I can get back to anchor and hold much longer as almost if its locked in. It has also improved my consistency. Looking forward to the future thats for sure. Also just happens that I have an either sex elk tag in my pocket for mid September in Colorado. Oh the possibilities... Best Regards
- Connor

[hart2hart]

By chance could you post a side or front view??
Hard to tell if your bow shoulder is carried low.
Looks like you might be allowing it to elevate up in the joint.Bad for joint/neck and weakens the
alignment in its own right.
Keep at it !!
Mike also from West Texas

[RedRidge]

Mike,

No problem here is a side view. My elbow likes to creep up a little. Also the target is on the ground. Standard bag target for height reference. I am stationed over here in the El Paso area. Not a lot of big game over here to chase. I am 0 for 2 on drawing New Mexico as well as the Fort Bliss hunts.

 

[Draven]

In my opinion, the result of a stance is what you are doing in the beginning and during it. I think that when you move up your bow hand you are trying to keep the bow straight as much as possible  during the movement - forcing your elbow to rotate the shoulder in the scapula, losing the alignment. The wrist is dictating the movement of your forearm if there is no "bone on bone" alignment, and you find yourself with a creeping elbow and rolled inside shoulder. There are 3 joints on the bow arm, and controlling them individually during the movement is not easy. The lazy way of doing is always let the gravity do its trick in the very beginning and just move the entire assembly from A to B. If I don't want a canted bow I just rotate the wrist a bit, keeping the rest aligned, but I don't really like to fight the natural because always haunts you back.

[moebow]

Red,  You are dealing with a lazy and loose shoulder on the bow side.  You've already corrected the lateral movement to a degree (that's the movement you had towards the bow).  Now you need to deal with the upward "shrug" position you show in this last photo.

See how your chin/jaw is below the top of your shoulder?  You are allowing the bow to press your shoulder up, OR you are lifting your bow by raising/lifting the shoulder.

Stand with your arms hanging at your sides.  Relax your shoulders completely and FEEL the position of the bow shoulder in relation to your spine.  That relationship will NOT (should not) change again!  Now when you lift the bow to draw, ONLY your arm lifts, NOT the shoulder!!!!

To get the position of the "wedge" you ONLY turn your torso but the shoulder position related to the spine doesn't change. Then, IF you only lift the bow with the arm and NOT the shoulder, this will give OBVIOUS space between the shoulder and the jaw.  
This is what we mean with the instruction of: "keep the shoulder down and back."

The shoulder in relation to the spine/torso DOES NOT CHANGE during the lift of the bow or the draw!!

Arne

[RedRidge]

Moe and Draven. Thank you for the help, however I can't quite get the draw shoulder down and back or really just down. Below you will see the pictures with arrows on them noting what you all have said vs some snapshots of Arne's videos. The red arrows are what both have pointed out, the blue lines are for reference and the yellow arrow is the main difference between mine and Arne's elbow position. I have been taking video for the past hour or so and it all looks the same to me. Any more suggestions to get the bow shoulder down?
 

[RedRidge]

How about this. I found an old thread about the bow shoulder and cpnhgningct said it this way, "Take your bow arm pointer finger and hold it close to your chest, shoulder relaxed and elbow completely bent like you're holding a baby.
Now from that "coiled like a snake" position, point straight out to an object parallel with the ground like you are holding the bow out there.
That represents high bow shoulder.
With your arm still fully extended and not moving any other body part, lower your fully extended pointed bow arm and point to the ground 4 feet in front of you then raise it right back up to the parallel to the ground position.
You will notice your bow shoulder is much lower now. That's how your shoulder should feel / be when shooting.

I feel like it is lower in this picture, but I will let you all be the judge.

 

[moebow]

Nice comparison Red!  From those, I admit that it looks pretty much the same and can see where the conceptual problem (confusion) lays.

Try this.  Take your string hand and place it on your bow arm collar bone.  So that the heel of the hand is on the sternum and the fingers are out on the end of the collar bone near the shoulder.

Now shrug your shoulder up.  Feel the collar bone lift and change angles with your body?

Go back to relaxed and down and then roll the shoulder forward.  Feel the collar bone angle change again?  It moves out from your body a little.

During your entire shot, that collar bone should  not change angle or position relative to the rest of your body.  That's keeping the shoulder "down and back" as we say.

I admit that it's a fine point.  But when you look closely, can you see the end of my shoulder above the line where yours is below the line?  That little difference is what is driving your shoulder up and for me, it is allowing the upper arm to press straight back into the shoulder with no "lift" input.

It would be nice to be a little closer in location as this is pretty easy to demonstrate  but hard to explain verbally.  Hang in there, you'll get it.

Arne

[RedRidge]

Thanks Arne. That comparison was to show exactly what you said towards the end. I can see the higher shoulder and almost rolled back toward my body, not at all to say theres not much difference. I have always live by the mantra, if your not trying to do your best and in this case have the best form possible why are you doing it. Thanks and I will continue to work on this. I ordered the trad gang dvd, so hopefully I can get more visual references from that.

[hart2hart]

Fort Bliss is not the end of the Earth,but you can see it from there!!
Ft. Bliss(1968)June to August..but it was a dry heat!!8>)
Thanks for your service,young man.
Some of the misalignment and comparison to Arne's might be his shooting waist high target and you're shooting a much lower target.If you would, try the shoulder low position with a parallel to ground draw and then dip from the waist/hips and see if the shoulder feels better.
Maintain the "T" position !
Mike

[Draven]

Originally posted by RedRidge:
.. however I can't quite get the draw shoulder down and back or really just down....

Do this test:

 Go in front of a wall and put your bow hand fist on it, like you are holding a bow. Push gently on the wall. You might see that your elbow is pointing left down. IF you try to rotate your elbow slightly to get it pointing left, not down left, 2 things will happen:
1. Your wrist will rotate/move on the wall and will give you a cca 45 degrees if you check the knuckles of your fist
2. Your shoulder will slightly sink.

In my opinion, is not your shoulder the problem, but your grip on the bow. Your little finger is wrapping comfortably around the grip, while normally is the one who's touching the handle the least from all the fingers if you have that cca 45 degrees knuckles angle required for a correct grip.

[RedRidge]

Alright gang I have been gone for roughly 10 months from the trad world and haven't been able to start shooting until early November. I am glad to be back and pulled out the Bowhunters of Trad Gang DVD and have been practicing. I am going to post some more videos and pictures for your thoughts. If you read the beginning of this thread I had trouble collapsing my front shoulder at draw, so I have really been trying to not move my shoulder at all. I am also using Terry's double anchor method and seems to be working well. I have kept my shots 15 yards and in. The last thing I noticed was a high draw elbow, so took a few days to work that out. Anyways enough babbling. Let me know what you think. All pics and videos are from a top down view and i drew the lines as a reference. Feel free to chime in on discrepancies. I would love the candid feedback.

The first four pics are with my 40# Sage with two different shirts for reference.
 
 
 
 

These two are with my 52# Blue Ridge Longbow
 
 

Then here are the videos where i pulled these stills from. Hope the links work.
   - Samick Sage
   - Samick Sage

   - Blue Ridge
   - Blue Ridge

[moebow]

Red,  Your alignments look better here, the videos didn't come through for me.  Looks like your shoulders are still kind of "scrunched" up but need a face to face view to know from here.
Arne