returning to snap shooting after TP rehab...?

[oldrubline]

I caught the longbow bug back when I was around 12 or so. My dad didn't know a darn thing about it, but showed me how he had shot when he was a kid which was basically looking at the target and lettin her rip without any focus on form.  My dad could hit stuff well that way. Anyway, I went on to hunt that way for years and, if I actually picked a spot on an animal, I could make a kill. If I looked at the entire beast, the arrow was going to sail over the withers!  Later in life I began to build and shoot exclusively native style self bows of hop hornbeam and ash. I shot with a pinch grip and floating anchor. Never got a deer that way but it was a fun skill to learn. When I went back to the laminated classic longbow about 8 or so years ago (a new Northern MIst) I had developed a nasty short draw Target Panic habit!  Couldn't even reach the face and my old corner of the mouth anchor spot!   I researched and read or watched everything I could on TP. Started with Kidwell which was a big help. Made a light PVC bow and would pull it and let it down frequently in the house. Did the routines in the book over and over. Things got better...  Over the past 8 years I have improved my control each year. Finally, with the shot sequence, blank bale, and JOEL TURNER (!!) coming along...I arrived at a place where I could consistently hold and shoot with control.

But...my method of shooting has changed now from the old method of putting all my 110% focus picking a spot with the arrow 'appearing' in the vitals. Now, it is the very controlled and slower, at least for me, method with the essential (to keep my TP at bay) mantra to 'keep pulling' to the psycho-trigger.

But, alas, just when I thought it was under control and was killing stumps left and right with my new 'target style' method, I enter the 2016 season.  I am focused on killing a big buck from the ground at first light. He is moving around like a crazed dog sniffin and scrapin...won't hardly give me a shot. I am INTENSE with focus on his shoulder...just waiting to get him to slow down with a decent window through the saplings. He goes to make a scrape, I set my bow arm...lock the bone alignment and tell myself to draw to anchor....  BUT!!!!  It is all so fast! And I am so anxious that he will suddenly be gone...next thing I know there is a pass through double lung killed buck.  Its a mixed feeling of elation and frustration!  I lost my shot control somewhere after setting the bow arm...don't remember the rest.

So...how the heck will I ever get control like this in the intensity of a moment like that?!  The openings to kill this deer...as is often the case on the ground in the thick backwoods...are brief moments. Go time is NOW!!!  I don't typically have deer slowly wandering into view that I can go through an entire (however brief) conscious shot sequence.  I am back to see that split second chance and let her rip!  Every bit of my focus and intensity is on that animal looking for that opportunity.
So...do I stick with the method that has allowed me to control my shots (at least on targets) OR is there some way to go back to my old snap shooting?  Is there a way to keep the TP out of my snap shooting and use it as a more effective method for the kind of shots I tend to get?  It is so hard to imagine ever gaining the thought control on my shot sequence during that split second I get to make a kill...or lose an animal.

Thanks for following my rant!  Any thoughts??!

Dan

Congratulations on a great shot!  Longtime sufferer here too.  

My advice is to continue working on the shot sequence--no matter what.  There is no substitute for consistent form and control in this archery game.  There's always the possibility your hard work paid off here.  Even though your conscience mind lost control, your sub-conscience may have benefited from all those drills.  :^)

[Sam McMichael]

Well, the good news is that you are conscious of the need to develop and maintain a controlled shot sequence. As you continue to work on form, this will improve. After all, when you killed the buck, something went right.

Snap shooting (in the classical sense) does not at all indicate lack of shot sequence. Many snap shooters have been excellent shots and enjoyed great success, such as Howard Hill and Fred Bear. Just don't let your snap shooting morph into the target panic of uncontrolled snatch and release (which is often incorrectly referred to as snap shooting).

[Firstlight]

Congratulations on the nice shot.

Personally, I say to not worry and to keep doing what you have been doing.  Stick with the mantra!!

In the moment you were locked onto the deer it sounds like you went "instinctive" with a controlled snap shot or the touch and go release, which is great.

I often practice holding a second or two with mantra, etc but I will also practice shooting very quickly, just touching anchor,  IE: snap shooting (with good form+hitting anchor with back tension) or call it an inline release or a touch and go release.  All the same.

don't over think it, it sounds like your mind and body did what it knew how to do in that moment.  Nice to know you can do it!  Sounds like you didn't sacrifice form, just the mental "mantra"...

[oldrubline]

Thank you guys for the comments and suggestions!   It sure does feel sometimes that those split-second shots and cruising bucks are more like aerial target shooting!  I can't imagine I would go through the pull to anchor, aim, steady pulling with mantra, until the shot goes off for fast moving targets in the air!  Just focus and let the body (subconscious doing the work) do its thing.  Like I said, on the ground, face-to-face with a cruising buck, my energy is 110% going to focus on the spot and getting the shot. I can't imagine having anything left over to run the mantra!  I watched MBB #3 yesterday and Rod was talking about how at the moment of the shot, all attention is on a spot and he picks out a molecule on that spot. There is nothing but aiming. He uses the idea of the  'two guys'. The one in the front is aiming only and the guy in the back is running the shot.  That is the kind of focus I seem to need in shooting in a hunting situation...my mind is occupied 110% being that intense predator 'man in the front'!

So, my thought has been to train very carefully to develop a smooth shot sequence with gradual blurring of the parts to make it engrained and automatic at the time of a kill. I have been using the back of the arrow point as a draw check/ trigger in order to control the TP. My mind during training will be using a mantra to keep pulling from the start and all the way through to the release as I feel the back of the point (surprise release). This would be practiced slowly over and over on the bale. At hunting time or when out stumping, I would just aim and let the 'man in the back' do the rest.  

Thoughts?

Dan

[Shooter Dan]

I'm in the same boat.  I've shot with a anchor and hold style for a long time.  I then developed Target panic and would snatch my release at times leaving me with inconsistent accuracy. Never had a problem reaching anchor, but I would anticipate the shot when it was time to release.  I then went to a psycho trigger and Mantra and that has helped, but my shot sequence was over 6 seconds. Over the years I have lost a lot of opportunities at game in thick cover when you only get a small window of opportunity.  I have always wanted to try a more fluid style like that of Terry Greens, Jeff Kavanagh, Howard Hill etc.. but thought it would be a difficult transition.  A couple of weeks ago I decided to take the plunge and commit to snap shooting or at least not stopping and holding at anchor.  I've always shot instinctive so that part really wont change.  I am still figuring out the best and most consistent reference points on my face, but I think I'm making progress.  Ordered the bow hunters of tradgang dvd for more form help, but if you guys have any advice that you think would help just let me know.  I love the fluidity of this style.  Now I just need to get more consistency.

[oldrubline]

Yes Shooter Dan!  That's exactly what I am talking about. I am sure there will be folks who can pull off a fast shot (ie. buck swiftly passing through a narrow shot window as happens so often). They may be able to do it with the longer sequence and no aim until after the bow is at anchor...and then with the 'keep pulling mantra and surprise release.  I don't know, but in 35 years of traditional bowhunting, much from the ground and without bait, I rarely get opportunities for a shot unless I am able to be very quick and without hesitation.  Don't get me wrong, I have made tremendous progress in my shooting due to the likes of Rod Jenkins, Joel Turner, and others who have really been responsible for my greatly improved form (I have added about 2 inches to my draw now!).  I believe in spending most of the practice time on form.  I have committed hundreds and hundreds of hours and arrows to following their programs (at least as I have available to me on MBB ). The thing is, I live in an area with very few deer per square mile and I get few chances to make a shot. I need to do it fast and the swing draw or snap shooting seems to be the way that had worked for me in the past (before dreaded TP took hold ).  My goal now is to take the shot sequence and ingrain it to my subconscious by very very carefully shooting each step over and over.  At first I will need the mental focus for each step of the shot sequence with mantra probably needed at the expansion phase. Eventually, I will drop the conscious focus to each step and allow it to become one fluid motion. I am going to leave the touching of the back of the point to the back of my bow hand as a means to avoid redeveloping short drawing. Next fall I will have a method that only requires me to burn my predatory focus through that tuft of hair behind the shoulder.
I hope I am on the right track....seems there are 2 competing ways of shooting that I see:  Let the subconscious run the shot and the focus is on the aiming vs pick a spot and then use your conscious mind to run each aspect of the shot.  Maybe either can work for different circumstances....this winter I am going to start training for the former.

Dan

[LBR]

I agree with Jim.  I'll add that a fast shot isn't necessarily snap shooting.  The more you practice form, the more natural it will become and you will be able to make a good shot without consciously going through the steps.  I watched Rod (Jenkins) shooting at aerial targets at Cloverdale one year...fast shots, but he was still dead on.  Practice makes perfect!

[oldrubline]

This is what happened with the 'Guy in the front and the guy in the back' when I had a brief moment to shoot the buck:
 
Guy in front:  "ok, watch for that buck to move into a shooting lane...damn, he's open!" "Pick a spot...ok..good, now set your bow arm in line with the target...good, good...nice bone alignment there..." "now pull to anchor.....".

Guy in back tossing the guy in front out of the damn way:  "Dang!  Shoot that thing!  Give me that string....there, double lung pass through at 22 yards!  Here's your bow back ..."

(Guy in front and guy in back is from Rod's section on MBB 3 when he talks about conscious and unconscious mind  with 'guy in front ONLY aiming and guy in back running the shot)

Dan

[McDave]

I've heard a lot of discussion in recent years about what the guy in the front and the guy in the back ought to be doing.  It seems to vary all over the map.  I guess as with most things, some things work for some folks and other things work for other folks.

I mean, who are we really talking to when we're talking to ourselves?  Are there really two (or more) "selves" in there?  Is there really such a thing as a subconscious mind, or is this just a concept humans invented to try to explain things we don't understand?  When we look back at mythology, we are amused by the stories, but people really took them seriously at the time.  I'm sure some of the things we take seriously today will be tomorrow's myths.

I'm not saying people shouldn't try to solve problems without really understanding the underlying causes, because the only other alternative would be to not try at all.  Just that we have to be humble when we know our proposed solutions have their foundations in quicksand.  A good example would be our current scientific explanation of the universe, which is fine if you accept the premise that 80% of the universe has to be composed of "dark matter" which we can neither measure nor see.

[mgf]

I don't think a "shot sequence" needs to be long or complicated. It's just a way of describing an approach or method of doing it the same way every time.

I don't snap shoot my rifle when I squirrel hunt and they're harder to hit than deer. Sometimes there's no time to dally but I still go through all the steps and sight through the scope.

I may shoot fast when I shoot running rabbits with a shotgun but I still go through all the steps.

[mgf]

There are two things that have really given me trouble bow hunting deer, especially from the ground.

One is that I get so few shot opportunities that I freak when I finally get a chance after so many hours sitting with no deer around.

The second is getting my bow drawn without getting busted and timing it all so I have a clear shot at a deer in position for a kill shot.

This year I've had 2 bucks step out of the thickets. Two other times I had one come through and never expose themselves (stayed in the thick stuff).

In one case he came in quick straight at me but suddenly turn broadside and stop...at about 10 yards. I shot quick but didn't shoot anything like I do when I'm in tin-can killing mode. I missed the whole deer.

The second time he crossed my shooting lane. I did everything exactly right but by the time I got to full draw my shot was obstructed.

This buck would be dead if I had stuck to my "shot sequence". LOL

[mgf]

Killed one this morning.

Heard a deer snort early but never saw anything. I sat freezing my butt off for a couple of more hours without seeing anything.

I didn't have a watch but the sun said it was about the time I had a nice buck come through last Sunday morning so I decided to stick it out for a while longer.

Heard some shooting from my neighbors place and decided to sit a bit longer.

Suddenly I hear a bunch of crashing behind me and I turn to see a couple of does blast through with a buck chasing.

It's all thick stuff there and I don't have any real shooting lanes. The buck has a small pathetic set of antlers but I see that he's dragging a back leg and he STOPS.

I thought the neighbor shot his back leg off.

There was maybe a little bit of a hole to shoot through AND I thought he was already shot so I took a shot.

At the shot he spun and stumbled over and fell right under my tripod.

It all happened fast. I didn't feel like I achieved the form and exact "shot process" that I practice but I sure had it in mind.

I found the arrow 16 yards from where I sat. Funny, it looked like the deer was further away.

Oh, it turns out the busted leg is an old injury.