Question for Arne Moe

[McDave]

There is a current post that resurrected an old post, "How is my form," which was originated by Pullonmylimb in 2009.  This in turn has resurrected a question I have had on my mind for a long time regarding the correct position of the bow arm shoulder at full draw.

I believe you and others have recommended a "low and back" position for the bow arm.  The "low" I understand; the "back" I don't.  When I think of back, I think of a shoulder rotated toward the back so that the shoulder blade is pressing toward the spine, as you would see on the string shoulder side.  I would describe my bow shoulder position as more or less neutral, and if I try to rotate my bow shoulder back toward my spine, it feels unnatural and uncomfortable.  

If I look at the photos of Pullonmylimb, in the first photos I do see his bow shoulder too far forward.  In the last photos, which everybody thought were an improvement, his bow shoulder seems more or less neutral to me, not back.  What am I missing?

[moebow]

For me, the "low and back" is in relation to the spine/torso.  In the system  I like and teach, you start with the shoulders (both of them) relaxed and down.  That, to me, is  the natural "down and back" position. Note the relation of the shoulders to the spine and then leave them in that relative position. They move in relation to the bow arm and bow but not in relation to the upper body/spine.

Now as you draw, and turn your upper body to align the shoulders to the target (from the open position) the shoulder is moved forward in relation to the bow arm but again, doesn't move in relation to the body. (Tried to say this twice, as I see it as an important distinction)

To "see" how this works try this experiment.  Stand up straight and just relax the shoulders to their normal position. Now, place your hand on the collar bone (bow side).  Now, if you move JUST the shoulder forward, can you feel the collar bone move or change its orientation to your body.

Next do it again but just turn your upper body to move the shoulder.  See how the collar bone does not change its relative position?  This is the way to make that shoulder alignment.  It is not an independent movement of the shoulder but a result of turning the entire upper body.

So your shoulder starts out down and back in relation to the upper body and stays in that position. It doesn't "shrug" up or "shrug" forward by itself.

Again, one of those things easy to show and hard to say in words.  But hope that helps.

Arne

[McDave]

So your shoulder starts out down and back in relation to the upper body and stays in that position. It doesn't "shrug" up or "shrug" forward by itself.
 

I think this explains it for me.  The "back" in "down and back" doesn't mean a movement to the back, just like the "down" doesn't mean a downward movement.  In both cases, it means maintaining the neutral position of the unstressed shoulders, rather than letting them move "up and forward."  Right?

[moebow]

Yes, right.  Many allow the bow's weight to push the shoulder up or forward (or do it themselves) and that is what we want to avoid.

Arne

[McDave]

Thanks!  I guess the operative word here that I missed is to "keep" the bow arm shoulder low and back, as opposed to "move" it low and back.

[Tim Y]

McDave, Thanks for asking your question, the discussion has helped me tremendously. Especially this demonstration as described by Arne Moe:

 

To "see" how this works try this experiment. Stand up straight and just relax the shoulders to their normal position. Now, place your hand on the collar bone (bow side)... ...It is not an independent movement of the shoulder but a result of turning the entire upper body.

Arne, I appreciate your youTube videos, I watch them over and over. Been a big help, Thanks.