bow arm movement

[oldrubline]

I have been trying to vary my form a bit in order to be able to take advantage of different hunting scenarios.  I hunt on the ground and have often used a bow up and ready as part camo.  This lends itself to a push-pull draw with bow arm starting in a bent and raised position. Then there is the swing draw which I like for fast shooting with arm straight from low.  Finally, the rotational draw.  I have been working on each of these styles and somewhere in this I have been getting some bow arm shoulder ache.  Is there a safer style for the shoulder?  A bow arm movement I should avoid in order to preserve my shoulder (I have some older injuries from past use of heavy bows)?  How about the hunting position using bow as camo...can rotational draw be used for that similar to push-pull?   I've also noticed that I may develop shoulder ache the next day if I am doing the slower release (Joel Turner pulling to psycho trigger) and holding more seconds vs more of a snap shot.

Thanks for any thoughts!

Dan

[Sam McMichael]

I agree with Draven that warming up is very important to both prevent injury and to enhance accuracy. I have always used the push-pull draw, so switching back and forth between shooting styles has never been a problem. I do think that physical conditioning is important when using push-pull draw. Undue soreness indicates that you are shooting more bow than you can handle in this style of draw, even if it is comfortable with a swing draw. Work into it, and you will probably be able to shoot comfortably this way fairly soon. Dan, I don't know your age, but I can assure that as you get older, you have to work your way into just about any change you make in your routine.  Maybe dropping off a few pounds in draw weight until your body gets used to the push-pull draw will help you.

[McDave]

I have found the technique of drawing the bow described in this video to be the easiest on my shoulders:

 BEST archery system  

The key component seems to be the downward pull utilizing the back muscles more than the shoulder muscles.  However, the other parts to the technique shouldn't be overlooked:

1.  First extending the bow arm and then raising both arms at the same time using only the arm muscles.

2.  If #1 is done correctly, the bow will end up in the predraw position a little further away from the body than I'm used to, enabling you to correctly execute the rotational draw.

3.  At the completion of the draw, the drawing hand ends up low and is then raised to the anchor position.  Of course, in the video this is the Olympic anchor, but it works just as well with the side of face anchor we commonly use with trad bows.

The purpose of this draw is to end up in a good shooting position with shoulders down and back muscles engaged.  A happy byproduct seems to be a draw that is easier on the shoulders, at  least that has been my experience in the month or so that I have been using it.

[oldrubline]

Not too much bow weight I don't think.  Only 45 pounds and I've been shooting 35 plus years with much higher weight. I can hold 45 easily.  It's something about the movement of the arm up to position that brings back the old injurys of past heavy bow use. Unlocked arm in rotational draw and push-pull don't seem to bother it.  Is that a known potential problem for some folks with swing draw? Are there safer methods for the shoulder? Again, the other thing that can aggravate it is holding for any length of time repeatedly.  I can easily do it strength wise, but there is something about the tension that gets that dull ache going
I'm looking at doing more of the rotational draw but wonder if I can use it in hunting situations like I can the push-pull

Dan

[Terry Green]

I'd strongly suggest not hacking on others or more than just post will disappear      

Howard  Hill drew is bow as he raised, but most of the draw was finished  once is was completely raised.  You may be drawing too much too early and putting too much strain on an out of line shoulder.

[Terry Green]

Rub....you must be referring to the swing draw, the rotation draw works either way...and is what I use for swing and prepoint push pull.

[oldrubline]

Excellent Terry, thanks for the advice     I'm going to try and use more of the rotational movement and stick with that for now.  Interesting, I get the same bow arm dull shoulder ache when I've been running my chainsaw for awhile.  With that, my left arm is locked at the elbow as I brace the saw.  I'll go rewatch the Tradgang video and rewatch Arne Moes videos for the 1000 time.  
I really like how he shoots the quick shots on one of the videos proving you can use the rotational draw to shoot fast but with good form.  
Dan

[Draven]

Originally posted by Terry Green:
I'd strongly suggest not hacking on others or more than just post will disappear              
 

Hacking on others when I say to get what is good from whoever teaches you and adapt to your own body? Forgive my ignorance regarding the evolution of assimilating things in the process from beginner to proficient. Will not be repeated again.

And to make sense to why I was mentioned above, I also said a warm-up session before shooting is doing a lot of good to shoulders.

I hunt on the ground with longbows as well.  Sometimes using nothing more than a light butt pad to keep my back side from getting wet.  For my shoulder, I find that keeping my draw arm in tighter is better when I am a little stiff and sore. My sitting low draw motion is most often a rising spread draw that finishes much the same as Hill's swing draw, which minimizes the amount of reaching forward motion that bow shoulder has to do.  This does not change the the full draw alignment, but neither do I intentionally hold for longer than needed once on target. Ground hunting without a blind requires better shot timing, deer are hyper sensitive motion detectors.  Even a slow draw will have movement that they can easily pickup if they are looking at you.

[oldrubline]

Interesting...can you explain more on the "rising spread draw" please. I agree that sitting at eye level requires timing and some specific draw changes
Dan

[Terry Green]

you made a god comment about jt.

[Draven]

No, I said nobody is God - and I think like this. I said that I do what I think is good for me taking what is good from what is taught and after - the 3rd phrase - the comment was related to his complain that it hurts when he follows the JT instructions.
But I don't want to continue with this.