Question about Dr. Ashby's article on TBM

[Biggie Hoffman]

The proof's in the pudding. In 42 years of practical bowhunting experience, a heavy arrow, a sharp broadhead and a good shot works everytime.

All this other stuff may be interesting to some but in the end, it won't change the physics of archery.

No disrespect meant towards "Dr" Ed

[bm22]

when i grow up i hope to be as good a shot as you biggie ! hopefully i can hit everything perfectly evertime so i can watch it fall. until then i want to eliminate as much of the "oh crap!" possibilities as i can.

for instance last week i shot a doe from the ground at 5 yards, i aimed at her knuckle and i hit her in the top of the shoulder blade, threw the top of her lung, past the spinal cord and into the top of the other lung.

i got about 4 inches of soild bone penetration and severl inches of muscle tissue penetration with the grizzle head, if i had been using right fletched arrows with the grizzly's i probably would have gotten a passthrew. would a snuffer or razorcap have gotten that much penetration, i don't know, but i have watched a snuffer stopped cold, actually bounce of a does shoulder blade, so probably not.

but the morale is that even thou we make a perfect shot we can end up with a bad hit and it sometimes takes every little bit to ensure a clean kill.

sry no pictures i am still kicking myself for not taking any, i was in a hurry to skin her and get her on ice, we had to go look for another deer a friend had on the ground. we were unsuccessful in finding the other deer.

[Biggie Hoffman]

"a heavy arrow, a sharp broadhead and a good shot works everytime."

So what part of this statement do you disagree with?

[jindydiver]

Originally posted by Biggie Hoffman:

All this other stuff may be interesting to some but in the end, it won't change the physics of archery.

 

Dr Ed and others are not trying to change anything, but are working to learn and share so that we can all understand better how it all works.

[elk ninja]

Biggie,
watch it now, you are treading on a dangerously slippery slope... If you don't agree, fine, but keep it civil please.  "Dr." Ed has a PhD, so he is, in fact, a Dr, and not a "DR",.... as well as a few other choice pieces of your statements... just please keep it civil, no one is saying you are wrong or that your experiences aren't sound.
Mike

[p1choco]

I've gone through all available reports.  I haven't read the part 4 update.  Is that what's in the TBM mag?  Very interesting and informative.  Though I question whether extreme FOC and IF have any relevance when hunting deer or bear or anything that is not heavy and thick like buffalo.  Like Biggie says, heavy arrow and sharp well placed broad head.  If I ever hunt big game here in the states or abroad, I will strongly take this research into consideration when choosing the appropriate gear.  

I am going to have to hunt down the next update.  I'm curious to know the length of footing you were using Dr Ed.  I would also like to know what the difference would be using an external footing of comparable length to compensate for the insert vice the internal footing.  Reading about shaft breakage peaked my curiosity.  A while ago (using GT traditional 3555, and 5575) I deliberately shot a few  arrows at a steel beam to visually see the aftermath of doing so.  With a 15% FOC on both types of shafts I had the 3555 split and fray 5" up the shaft looking like a cartoon cigar exploding.  With the 5575 shafts I had one showing a hairline split on the outer lamination going up 1.5".  However it was still bonded to the lamination beneath it and the insert was still intact.  The other 5575 did not show any breakage to the naked eye, but the insert did eject.  I'm sure if I were to use some penetrating fluid and UV light I might find different results.  The steel beam did not give and I imagine the flesh and bone would give dramatically compared to the steel beam.  So I'm wondering why the shafts would be prone to breaking going into buffalo after conducting my own durability tests on metal.  The only thing I can imagine is that the portion of the shaft that has not penetrated is flexing at the point of penetration beyond it's limitations.

[bm22]

nothing, i agree with you biggie, a heavy arrow, sharp broadhead and a good hit will do it everytime,

 but a sharp broadhead and a heavy arrow wont do much if the animal moves, or you hit it in the wrong spot.

i don't think you understand where we are coming from biggie, i totally agree with you that a heavy arrow and a sharp broadhead is great for those perfect hits, or just good hits, but when everything doesn't go my way i want to have everybit of penetration and bone busting power i can get, to kill the animal.

i have never had a problem losing and animal  hit threw the lungs/heart area with a 2, 3 or 4 blade head, but i have lost game because i didn't get enough penetration. i don't think anyone would argue a 3 or 4 blade broadhead will out penetrate a solid 2 blade.

so why use the head that is designed to make the great hits awesome instead of the head that makes the less than perfect hits good enough to kill game ?

i am not nocking the 3 or 4 blade broadheads ability to kill game, because they will kill game if hit perfect, but noone is perfect and a perfect shot doesn't guarrentee a perfect hit.

[Terry Green]

" but a sharp broadhead and a heavy arrow wont do much if the animal moves, or you hit it in the wrong spot."

I disagree, that's one of the reasons we use heavy arrows and sharp heads.

A light arrow and a dull head might not do much though.

[bm22]

lol terry
let me rephrase that some
a sharp broadhead and a heavy arrow wont guarrentee a kill if the animal moves.

i give up, i am not going to respond to anymore 2 blade debates, it is clear that after 40 years of hunting experinece and how ever many years of experience that the everyone else has i am not going to change anyones mind on what they choose to hunt with.

and it may never happend and i doubt we would hear about it if it did but i hope that you don't loose any animal with a 3 blade head because of poor penetration.
happy hunting ; )

[Terry Green]

"a sharp broadhead and a heavy arrow wont guarrentee a kill if the animal moves."

Can you tell me what type of head and arrow WILL guarantee a kill?...If so, I'll gladly change my mind!!!!   :D

[alligatordond]

Interesting dialog. I like the research Dr Ashby is doing but some things seem unanswered (and this is all relative to deer as thats where my experience is.) As with all research, practical application often yields some unforeseen and possibly negative side effects. Here are some things to ponder that I don't have concrete answers for,maybe some of you can provide factual answers:

1-I think Ashby's research shows increased penetration leads to increased lethality.

2- But, does that lead to increased recovery rates? Does going through one shoulder ensure an exit wound? If not will the result be more dead unrecovered deer due to poor blood trails? Many shoulder shot deer survive (and yes many do not), I know of one I shot that was taken a year later that appeared healthy.

3- What % of the unrecovered deer are shoulder/bone hits and what% are gut shot? I don't know if the answer is out there but if there are more gut shot deer than shoulder shot then maybe more emphasis could be placed on improving that recovery rate.

4- Would a 3 blade like a Woodsman or Snuffer improve the rate of recovery for gut shot deer? If that answer is yes(big if) and there are more gut shot unrecovered deer than shoulder/bone shot does that make a 3 or 4 blade the better bowhunting head?

5- Is there a significant difference in pass through rates between 2-3-4 blade heads on gut shot deer?

6- Do you get better blood trails with 3-4 blade heads vs 2 blade heads?

7- Ultimately (and again, relative to deer,) which broadhead gives you the best overall chance of recovering your deer, regardless of the hit.

8-If all this sounds like late night ramblings, it is, Besides it's hard to concentrate with the OSU/LSU game on

For the record, I shoot 2 blade Zwickeys and wood arrows ranging between 500 and 600 grains, depending on the wood. My bow is a 54 pound Robertson longbow and I have no clue how fast it is or isn't, it shoots where I point it. I refuse to go to a heavier bow to achieve a certain level of KE especially if it results in me being less accurate.

I'm sure all the experts out there will make me to be an idiot but maybe I'll learn something. Fire away.

DonD

[Mike Brown]

Way back when, I remember everyone was weighting their carbon arrows with everything from pepper to weed eater line.

I had problems with arrow flight and getting my spine right and eventually wound up putting about 250 grains on the front end of my arrow.

I posted here and most everyone shot me down as FOC was all the rage even though I get perfect bare shaft flight.

Then about 6 months later Morrison is doing something called "Front Loading" to his arrows and every jumps on the band wagon.  I love it.    

I like my 220 grain Muzzy Phantoms.  The first half of the blade enters like a two blade giving enough pentration to sever a spinal column or split bone then the bleeder blades create a bigger hole.  I think it is a good compromise between a three blade that enters as such and a two blade that does not has as much cutting surface.  The ferrele is stainless which removes a weak point that Dr. Ashby speaks about in his article.

[d. ward]

I love that pudding too Biggie........it's the best..bd

[Doug A]

I checked on 3 Rivers for the Grizzly 190s.  Judging by the picture on the website, the Grizzly that they are offering is similar to the modified version of the Grizzly that Dr. Ashby describes in his latest interview in TBM.  Is this a fair approximation of his ideal BH?

[Jason Jelinek]

We all have to live with the results of our equipment choices.

For myself, now that I have read Ashby's report I won't go out bow hunting unless I've addressed the majority of the items presented in the TBM article.  If a bad shot happened and I didn't get the penetration I wanted and I didn't recover the deer I would be kicking myself knowing I had information in front of me that may have changed the outcome.

Now if I chose to hunt a deer with a flint head I would do so for different reasons.  I would go into it knowing that the stone points may not have the bone splitting capabilities of a modern steel broadhead and accept what may happen.  That does not mean I would take bad shots or good shots in bad circumstances.  The idea of hunting with stone points is a historical one giving me a link to my ancestors.

I don't believe Dr. Ashby is splitting hairs, he is simply presenting the results from his unbiased study.  He even incorporated the extreme FOC idea to his study after someone else indicated it improved penetration.  If he was biased he wouldn't of incorporated it.  He is in search of the truth.  If you read the article, the cumulative numbers in the gains in penetration are not trivial.  If one chooses to stay with their tackle after reading the article because they are happy with it, that's completely fine.  I however, want to have as many odds stacked in my favor and will do my best to build the best arrow I can (whether it's carbon or wood) to hunt with.  After reading the article I don't believe using a compound stacks the odd in my favor any more than using my longbow.

Jason

[Dave2old]

By follow Ashby's advice as closely as I can, my last two elk, a cow and a 5x5 bull, both went down within sight after full pass-through shots, ribs and all -- 12 and 30 yards, respectively -- making blood trailing superfluous. On no elk I ever killed with a bow before that (a quarter-century's worth), while using lighter (around 550 usually) shafts and multi-blade heads did I ever get full penetration or have an elk die within sight ... though I did call one back one time to die in front of me. In my experience, the Ashby formula works best even with considerably lighter bows than I was using with the pre-Ashby arrow setups. Darned if I can understand why anyone would get angry because one of our own, who happens to be a scientist and a good one, is so selflessly trying to make our hunts more humane and successful. Dave

[SteveB]

Dave - people only get a little twisted when others are using what they may consider anecdotal observations to strongly suggest that those not immediately modifying their equipment are somehow doing a dis service to the animal, hunting or ethics.

This may not be their intention, but it is the way it comes across from many and very stronly from some.

There are pluses and minus to all setups - it is up to the individual to find the balance that they are comfortable with.

Steve