freedom is a function of space

[beachbowhunter]

Originally posted by Reg Darling:
Meanwhile the hunters refuse to retake their natural role of leadership in the environmental movement because they're afraid they'll have to ally themselves with someone they disagree with on gay marriage, abortion, or health care. We need to forget the liberal/conservative horse pucky our politicians and the media have spoon fed us and stand up for the wildness of our land and we need to get radical about it.

Geez Reg, you hit the nail on the head again! It's like you're reading my mind.

[Wary Buck]

Even my dear old Platte River Valley in eastern Nebraska is feeling the pinch of real estate (over) development.  City-dwellers keep buying up recreational ground on which to dig a sandpit, ring it with 20-30 houses so they can have a place to jet-ski, run ATVs, host parties, etc.  Meanwhile, the critters get shafted and hunting ground either disappears or becomes nearly useless.  In the last 10 years, the places I primarily hunt have gone from quiet little gardens of edens full of trees, weeds, marshes, etc. to golf courses, sandpits, housing developments, and ATV trails.  I thought I could stay here until I died, but I'm thinking that may not be the case.

I don't know how much of this can be blamed on the current administration (I tend to give the benefit of doubt to a pro-2nd Amend. President), but there is little doubt in my mind that the net loss of hunting land and wildlife habitat across the U.S. will be a bigger enemy for the average hunter than PETA and their ilk.

[matt schuster]

I agree that motorized vehicles on public land is a problem - a law enforcement problem.  I also agree that states cater to outfitters too much, which is essence, is using the law to promote outfitter business. But in the interest of freedom, including economic freedom, what do you guys propose be done to stop the economic growth in your areas.   Should it be illegal to sell the family ranch so your descendants can be financially secure or should you just not be allowed to sell it to some evil rich businessman?   Maybe the state should just buy all available property but where will the government get the money especially in light of the fact that all that land will then be off the tax roles.  Add to that the fact that if hunting ever gets outlawed it will be outlawed on public land first.   I live in the south, and contrary to popular belief, there is a bunch of public land, state and federal, that offers very good hunting.  Its funny though, usually what threads like this really mean is that my favorite spot, that I know well, and is within convenient driving distance, has now been discovered by others - so I will have to work harder, drive farther, spend a little more, to get better hunting. . . welcome to the real world!   I don't mean to poke fun - well, yes I do, and I do think hunters should band together more to promote what we believe in. . but there is a real tone of anti-private property tone in the this thread for which the only alternative is decidedly anti-freedom, pro big government and that scares me more than than any anti-hunting groups.

[bravedeer]

The number one way to stop development is for the population to stop growing. The more it grows the bigger the danger it poses to wild lands.

If the population is stabilized, no more land needs to be developed.

[Wary Buck]

bravedeer,
Man, Gene Wensel had an article in the PBS Magazine a number of years ago that hit that nail right on the head...long before the current illegal immigration issue became a political furor.  There are a lot of good things about the U.S. which could be preserved if our population remained static.  Of course the business world may not like that idea.

[bravedeer]

Wary Buck,

I don't want to tackle illegal immigration. It's too complex an issue. Does it have something to do with population growth? Sure. I'm not sure we can blame those who come here and pick our food and do the crappy jobs most people no longer want to do.

I agree that the business world as well as the government don't want the population to remain static. Whenever we hear "grow the economy", in one way or another it means population growth  :(

[Alex.B]

Originally posted by Wary Buck:
bravedeer,
Man, Gene Wensel had an article in the PBS Magazine a number of years ago that hit that nail right on the head...long before the current illegal immigration issue became a political furor.  There are a lot of good things about the U.S. which could be preserved if our population remained static.  Of course the business world may not like that idea.

????? U need      
PS: Anyway, isn't this site about traditional Bowhunting only?

[Wary Buck]

Alex B...I don't understand your personal attack on me.  At all.

And BraveDeer, I agree with you, I don't want to address illegal immigration either.  As a teacher and coach I am in contact with a good number of these folks, and it is a very complex issue.


As I stated in my post (clearly I thought), Gene's article was way BEFORE the current furor on illegal immigration...in other words, that's NOT what I was talking about; I was trying to distance myself from the illegal immigration topic!  I apparently didn't make that clear.  
 
What I WAS addressing was BraveDeer's suggestion that if our population stopped growing, development would slow, and that our wildlife populations and habitat would reap the benefits.  I agree wholeheartedly.  

And, yes, Alex, that has a lot to do with traditional bowhunting.

[bravedeer]

I agree with Wary Buck! Do you have a link to the article ?

Thanks!

[Wary Buck]

BraveDeer--

No link, sorry.  I can't even remember how long ago it was printed (it's been a number of years)but I remember being very impressed at the time.  My PBS mags are all at home in a stack next to a pile of TBM's dating back to the very first issue...

[joebuck]

Sorry guys , i am not shedding many tears for ya'll. M. Schuster pretty much nailed it...We complain about losing our hunting land but yet our neighbors and relatives are selling their "back 40 acres" to the Monsters of business. We need to Blame your brothers and neighbors and ourselves not big business and if your waitng on the government to"protect your sacred homeplace"...they want it too for low governmnet housing for the "other" people you wont help in your community......you know the ones that are too lazy to work... I had a friend's father sell his 2000 acre Hunting/farm because he was too old to hunt and he needed money for medical bills to try to have at least a better quality of life towards the end of the road.......priorities change...

[Ray Hammond]

According to reaserch conducted by a couple universities respected in the field of population dynamics, in order for a culture to maintain itself, there must be a fertility rate of 2.11 children per family, with anything less the culture will decline.

Historically no culture has ever reversed a 1.9 or lower fertility rate- and at a rate of 1.3 it is impossible to reverse, which is what the US is at now(because it would take 80 to 100 years to correct itself and there is no economic model that can sustain a culture during that 80 to 100 year period while we strive to correct)

In other words, if two sets of parents each had one child there are half as many children as grandparants. if those children have a child than there are 1/4 as many grandchildren as grandparants. if only 1 million babies are born in 2006, its hard to have 2 million adults enter the workforce in 2026.

As the population shrinks so does the culture.  In 2007 the fertility rate in france was 1.8
england 1.6 greece 1.3  germany 1.3  italy 1.2
spain 1.1

Across the entire european union of 31 countries, it's a mere 1.8  Historical reaserch tells us these numbers are impossible to reverse.

How can that be, you say? Our population is growing, right? Yes it is.  Think. Think.

All this furor about "our population must remain static" or "zero population growth" is hocus pocus engendered by the same pseudo-intellectuals saddling us with stricter pollution controls- while not getting China, India, and others on board. They're the same people screaming "save the whales, kill the nukes", "I'm feeling it are you feeling it?" - in other words, we've allowed the zombies to lock themselves in the wheelhouse and they're steering the ship over the falls, folks.

The world's population is growing- but our culture is dying out. A bloodless revolution and morphing/overthrow of our form of government is nearly guaranteed- both in the US and Europe. So there you go.

Wrote a song about it- Like to hear it? Here it go!

[huntindad]

Very nice logic Ray.Makes sense of the senseless thought of "population control". On the original topic I too am really feeling the pinch of too many people in my duck hunting and steelhead fishing grounds,OOPS!! said mine!I hunt out of state for deer in ID,NV,COand OR not all every year just what I can draw I'm not rich but make it a priority because all of my favorite places have changed in some way either development or habitat or overrun with other people so I find it hard to make myself go as it makes me long for the good old days and this makes my kids suffer because if I don't go they don't go (oldest is 14)

[huntindad]

As stated above I hunt out of state and I have met many people and I must say the response of being from CA is quite interesting I live 20 miles from the OR border on the coast and I am farther removed mentally and politically from the typical californian than many OR residents I have known.My point is often people are misjudged and from that they misjudge if that makes sense.I have heard often the stories of L.A. snobs moving to a small town to get out of the city and then changing it to fit them which is like ...Ironically L.A. . In fact I live that one too!20 years ago the powers that be (city,countyand state) decided to "SAVE" my hometown by building a max-security prison here you may have heard of it Pelican Bay State Prison.This savior promised to hire many local workers which they eventually did ,and save our little slice of heaven.Well think about 1000 employees that want to move to a small town and blend in many became outdoorsmen .Always good for the big picture in a state where our numbers are on the decline but bad for my area in that they run 3 shifts a day and assorted days off so the fish and the ducks n our small marsh don't get a day off.Translation suddenly very bad outdoor experience.We all have the right to use the space but as it gets smaller you really can't blame the new guy because he probably got tired of his old places being overcrowded.Like I tell family and friends who tell me its changing everywhere,when I tell them I will soon be leaving here,whereever I go it will not be like the good old days for the locals there but it will be the start of the good old days for me and my family.Sorry for the long post and I hope if I move to your neck of the woods it doesn't run ya off I can promise you I don't want anything to run like what it has here so I promise not to change it.If I buy a big piece of land ajacent to public land stopping your access(only if I win the Lottery) the sign will read Private Property Access denied unless you show me your Trad Bow;)Bill

[NorthernCaliforniaHunter]

This is exactly where fundamental rights and the concept of personal property butt heads.

Cane lost faith in the abundance of God's creation, defined space, plowed it and took root in one spot at the exclusion of others. Able trusted in that abundance and took solace in a life of subsistence hunting and gathering.

An individual laying claim to land and excluding you from hunting and gathering on it is essentially denying your right to exercise the facilities God endowed you with to chase game and feed yourself, i.e. be free.

I'm not advocating for the abolishing of private property, I'm simply saying that it creates a problem with regards to hunter/gatherer type pursuits.

[NorthernCaliforniaHunter]

Cain and Abel - spelling is not my forte

[huntindad]

Well said ,possibly misspelled(who cares) but well said.Bill