State whitetail management policies

[jonsimoneau]

I for the life of me cannot figure out why some states have still not learned how to manage whitetail deer.  I was a trained wildlife biologist in college.  Trust me guys...it is not rocket science.  I live in Illinois which does a pretty good job.  But everyone knows that Iowa does the BEST job of managing the resource.  I was once at a United Bowhunters of Illinois meeting where a DNR official was there.  I asked him why we could not structure our gun season the way Iowa does.  This would mean more big bucks available for BOTH gun and bowhunters.  He told me it would cost too much. WHAT?  I believe that Indiana would be the best whitetail state if they would move the gun season out of the November rut.  Every state would be better off to do this.  The gun hunters complain that they would not have a chance for a trophy buck if they did this.  BULL!  If there are more big bucks out there, then there are more opportunities.  It just seems rediculous to me, that after all of the recent research, that more game departments do not get this through their heads.  What do you guys think?

[DBerrard]

Trophy hunters would be better off yes, but the Gov should  be focused on keeping deer density at a manageable level and not rack size..


Due to that I don't see them moving gun season out of the rut anytime soon..most people hunt with a rifle and DNR needs them to harvest animals of any size..
Destruction of crops, car accidents, starving populations of deer come in ahead of bone growth on their melon. That's my opinion anyhow.  
Regards,
  Dave

[jonsimoneau]

Hey Dave. I agree.  But if the idea is to kill more does, than gun seasons should occur earlier.  Killing off 90% of the buck population, (like many states do) does nothing to control deer numbers.

[jonsimoneau]

By the way, I live in an area of Illinois where deer numbers are very low.  Still we grow a few huge bucks.  It's because there is limited gun pressure during the time when young bucks are most vulnerable.(the rut).

[DBerrard]

Not sure of the harvest reports in IL but if it's vastly bucks harvested I definitely see the need for concern. Could be since IL is seen as a big buck destination? Dunno..

Here in MN, DNR info shows that anterless harvests have been greater than buck harvests 10 years out of the last 16. Early antlerless season helps out a lot I think.

I'm with you on one thing though, where I hunt the deer density is very low...havent harvested one since 2005 and it sure isnt due to lack of trying  :D  But either way, if the game law stays the same or changes to favor antler growth..I'll still hunt just to hunt. I bet you're with me there eh?  

Regards,
 Dave

[DRR324]

Jon, I'm with you all the way- Michigan sucks for this very reason.  Nov 15th- opening day of rifle.  It the TRADITION here that won't ever be changed.  And yes 90% of the bucks shot are 1 1/2 years old.  Try to start a topic about management and you get flamed for not letting guys kill what they want.  I posted a topic on bowsite regional forum last spring asking if guys get more excited when the see a big buck compared to a little one.  If they would be willing to let little ones go for a year of two to increase the age structure a bit to have more mature bucks- talk about getting the hammer....I was forcing my way of thinking on everyone and got flamed for even asking.....too much to ask a guy to see the past the present and look to the future a bit.  The biggest issue here- a square mile block has an average of 10-20 landowners- thus the orange army and the big question (which I hate) "did you get your buck".....I'll stop now.
Dave

[BMOELLER]

Kansas has their gun season the first week of Dec.  I've been out hunting during that time and the bucks are still very much in the rut. I like this approach maybe because I would rather bow hunt during the rut than rifle hunt.  The way I see it both types of hunters will get their chances plus the bigger bucks will be able to breed more does and pass on the genetics.

I wish Missouri would adopt this strategy, but changing tradition and beliefs would P.O. alot of people.  I wish they would only use slug guns north of the Missouri River as well.  For the past four years alot of counties have been under the four point on one side rule.  I like it because I've been seeing betterbucks(just haven't got one yet) but I know alot of people want to take whatever they want just so they can say they killed a buck.  Just my .02 cents

[jmdavis]

Does are tasty!!!

[Clay Hayes]

I don't think your going to run into much opposition, with bowhunters, moving the gun season out of the rut.  Unfortunatly, gun hunters are the majority, and majority rules!

ch

[Jack Whitmire Jr]

I live here in the land of 1.5 year old bucks,any buck with antlers in in danger. We have 4 counties in the southern part of the state that are bowhunting only-WOW you should see the results. Our DNR allows up to 5 bucks with all the tags. I wish they would go to "1 buck your out policy -even buttons" . Ohio has had a 1 buck policy  for years and the results are obvious " just across the river. I manage the deer on my measley 30 acres and my neighbors acreage, by just shooting 1 buck a year, and shooting the rest of my tags in does, the results are positive come rut time it is exciting     Good luck on changing the whole state
.

Jack

[TRAP]

I wish we were limited to only one antlered buck in Missouri.  

I agree Clay that there are many more firearms hunters than bowhunters but the bowhunter voice is usually louder and more organized.  I suppose it's easier to unite when you are fewer in number.  

The Mo Department of Conservation recently proposed many good ideas but most were shot down by the public at public meetings.  

One proposal I especially liked was an early antlerless season.  Perhaps mid to late October.  Seemed like a good idea to me.  Why waste all of that Rut energy on does that you are going to kill in a late antlerless season?  Sure it would mean a brief interuption to bow season but the benefit would outweigh the interuption I think.  Less does during the rut spell increased rut activity to me.  Surprisingly many bowhunters opposed this idea.

Another proposal was to open the firearms season one week later every year.  Another idea I supported but many didnt.

For now, we have the 4 pt on one side antler restriction in many northern counties and that's a good thing at least in the short term.  

While you say White-tailed deer management is an easy thing, I'd have to respectfully disagree.  There are so many local traditions to overcome when change is proposed or made regulation.  There are a half million or so deer hunters that head afield every year in Missouri and they all have their own opinions about how the states deer herd should be managed.  Then there is that segment of the population that wish there were no deer in Missouri because of personal property damage deer cause.  Try to make things more liberal and hunters scream that the MDC is trying to wipe out deer.  Try to improve Buck to Doe ratio, buck age class and overall buck quality and many will accuse the MDC of catering to the Trophy Hunter.  Try to be more conservative and listen to the auto insurance industry and ag crop producing landowners scream.  All of these interest groups have legitimate concerns and are true stakeholders in the state's deer management.

Managing deer in the Midwest is truly a juggling act and not an easy task.

It would be easy for many of us if we were made "King for a Day" and could deem it done as we see fit, but for state agencies and the public servants (deer biologists) the task is not quite as black and white.

Trap

[pronghorn23]

I agree with Dave with letting the little bucks grow.

In Illinois the problem with trying to change the gun season is the all the gun hunters would oppose it.

Maybe one solution would be to make all fireams seasons in Illinois "Earn a Buck" where you have to shoot a doe first. Alot of public areas that are limited draws do that because their goal is herd reduction.

Illinois used to have separate shotgun, muzzleloader and hand gun seasons. Now you can use any firearm during shotgun and late "firearm" season.

Every few years a proposal comes up in Illinois for a rifle season. That would just destroy the buck herd in Illinois. Luckily they keep it shotgun/muzzleloader/handgun. Even though some of these new muzzleloaders aren't "primitive" and have ranges more like a rifle.

I think they should move the firearm season to either earlier or later. They're already using a firearm and they need the rut to get a buck too?

[ChuckC]

All the above depends on whether you care to shoot a big buck or just any buck, or any deer.  

More people would rather have a deer to shoot than don't.  More people wish to go out and spend a day or two hunting and expect to kill a deer, or two.

They do not find any reason to spend days and weeks in the woods as some do.   In many states there are historically high numbers of deer.  Deer numbers that are causing problems.  That is why the laws remain as they do.

Just a devils advocate question...   Why are you wanting to shoot the biggest, best buck the herd has to offer instead of letting that deer breed.  Shoot the older (over the hill) deer and the little ones instead, and lots of does.
ChuckC

[John Scifres]

I live in Indiana and gun hunt.  Gun hunting during the rut is fun and exciting.  I shoot the first deer that walks by me and could care less about the rack size.  I encourage all of our hunters to shoot the deer before they become too big.  Keeps us out of the magazines that way.  Indiana is full of meat hunters and 1 year old bucks.

[LKH]

One of the big reasons that I don't shoot the first deer is that I love the hunt.  With only 1 tag, I don't want to end it quickly.  

While most of you are refering to whitetails, WY does not allow most mulie hunting during the rut.  As a result they have great trophies, some of which are taken each year.

MT allows rut hunting in most areas and its much tougher to find a mature buck, even during the rut.

[vtmtnman]

My state is only recently hoping on the managment bandwagon.Our herd was grossly mismanaged for years.One simple fact is the gun hunters' voices thunder over the bowhunter's voices.Those like me that hunt all three seasons(Bow,rifle,and smokepole) should be the real voices(IMO anyways).We hunt all the seasons,we know.Just opinion there tho.

In 2005 Vermont enacted a two on one side point rule.Most of your old timers with the,"If you shoot a doe you shoot two deer" mentality were all against this.They also uped the muzzleloader doe permits.(At the time I thought it was crazy,but later in an outdoor paper I subscribe to,the VT FNG Com explained that when you have extra buck going into winter,equal doe must be removed...which makes perfect sense because the land only supports so many deer).

Fast forward 3 years...and the results are amazing.I've seen so many good deer taken last season it was unreal.I hunted the last week of bow season in PA last year,and to get to bowhunt the rut is really something.If VT is following PA's example of deer management,then they can't pass that three on one side rule fast enough for me.The bucks were incredible down there.All VT needs to do is pass the 3 on one side rule,move rifle to the first week of Dec,and extend bow season two extra weeks,and we can have all the trophy hunting we want.

To be really honest,it's not the antlers I want,rather the 180+ lb deer attached to them.Antlers are a bonus.Deer hunting in NE is measured by weight not antlers.More awe is placed on a 200 lb 5 point than a 130 8 point.

Just my 2 cents.

[bog monster]

Living in NY, a haven of mismanagement, I am jealous of anyone that gets to hunt in a state with a solvent plan. Our DEC can't seem get either a qdm or a overall herd health system together. Our archery season is a full month shorter than most of our neighboring states and is shared with muzzleloaders during the 9 day "late season". For what it is worth, I think that if you want to reduce herd numbers, extra tags should be given the hunters that regularly fill their tags, not a luck of the draw lottery

[Wary Buck]

Tradition is a hard thing to buck, and that's the biggest hurdle I'm guessing in moving rifle hunters to a later season in the year.  One lame excuse our G&P has used is that venison is less palatable in December.  Give me a break!

Jon, you are so right when you say IA's plan has benefitted bow AND shotgun hunters.  A later season would do the same in any state.  

I disagree with one poster who said that an earlier season helps the states trim deer herds better.  Whether the deer are killed in November or December has little impact on farmers, the damage to their crops has already been done and it matters little from that aspect which of those two months the harvest takes place in.

A post-rut hunt should help more mature bucks reach the next year and be bigger for everybody.  Unfortunately in these tough times, I see DNRs making their decisions based on money before biology.  Which will mean expanded gun seasons, liberalized definitions of muzzleloaders, and inclusion of crossbows into bow seasons.  None of which are good news in my opinion.