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Author Topic: Privilege or right?  (Read 10771 times)

Offline Tsalagi

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Re: Privilege or right?
« Reply #100 on: September 10, 2010, 11:18:00 PM »
OkKeith, I read through your post and it is thought-provoking. I hope you will read through mine.


While rights or freedom can be taken away, they cannot be taken away without due process of law. This is far and away much different than saying unless rights are inviolate, you don't really have them. Priveleges are something that can be taken away without, necessarily, due process of law.

OkKeith said:
"I don’t want to have to depend on anyone else to keep me safe, happy and alive."

 Oh, but you have. If you were born before 1990, I might say that, theoretically, the Strategic Air Command kept you alive by deterring a Soviet attack. I would also add that if a fire department put out a fire anywhere within a 10 mile radius of your house, they kept you alive, or at least happy. Because the fire didn't spread, as in the Great Chicago Fire. I'll also add that unless you're getting water from your own personal well, your municipal water department keeps you alive because you're not dying of water-borne diseases.

 It's easy to be the "rugged individual" and say we don't need anyone else, but the fact is, we do. We're social animals and we evolved that way as a species. We learned that cooperation during a hunt results in a downed Wooly Mammoth and plenty of meat as opposed to one poor sap that ended up as toe jam between the toes of said mammoth because he tried to do it himself. Humans won't survive living like Praying Mantises. That's not how we evolved and that's not how our brain works. Solitary creatures never evolved past "Need food, need sleep, need water, need dry hole". This internet wouldn't exist if people weren't social animals. And, if I may say so Keith, if you don't rely on others for happiness, why do you use the internet and this forum? Surely you must derive some sort of satisfaction from it, else why do it?

  The Founding Fathers determined that people, at least in the United States, are born with rights. They need not "earn" them---however one does that. If, for example, I said I "earned" my rights because I served in the army, I would be wrong. I have no more or no less rights than the Americans who never served. Saying that people must "earn" their rights is a sure-fire recipe for having a nation where some despot sets the bar so high, no one can achieve it. Then you have a society like Ancient Sparta, full of helots. The Founding Founders were well aware of that, which is why they said:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Ergo, every American has rights here, from birth. No one "earns" anything. Having people "earn" rights" is how you end up with loyalty oaths that must be signed at every swearing in of a new leader, people stripped of rights for voting for the losing side of an election and having to "earn" back those rights through serving the new regime. I know that's not what you meant, Keith, but that's how the "earning rights" gig plays out in reality among human beings. That's why the Founding Fathers wrote the proviso the way they did.
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Offline Brian Krebs

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Re: Privilege or right?
« Reply #101 on: September 11, 2010, 12:33:00 AM »
OK - that was good.
THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP.

Offline OkKeith

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Re: Privilege or right?
« Reply #102 on: September 11, 2010, 01:15:00 AM »
Tsalagi,

I read your post and agree with the better part of it. You quoted me accurately when I said,

"I don’t want to have to depend on anyone else to keep me safe, happy and alive."

Don't want to, yes. Under modern social convention, have to; to some degree. I agree that certain rights are granted from birth and should be defended with all possible fervor. Those rights are just not worth much if we don’t work to make them meaningful. I didn't mean to imply anything else, and apologize if it seemed that way. I just don’t believe that hunting as we practice it today is part of that.

My feeling is that having the right to something (life, liberty, and happiness) doesn't mean I am ENTITLED to it. Maybe I should have put that in my earlier discourse. After all, we are only guaranteed the right to pursue happiness. If I am unhappy, I shouldn’t rest on my laurels and expect someone to come and make me so. If my life or liberty is threatened it seems ridiculous (to me at least) to wave my hands in the air and DEMAND someone else do something about it while I do nothing. I don’t require the internet to be happy. It’s just something I enjoy. If it went away, I would find other things to spend my free time on just as I did before it got here. True, it would suck, but I would get over it.

I still think hunting is a privilege. One that is, and should be, earned. In Oklahoma if someone is born after a certain date, they must attend a Hunter’s Safety Course and pass a test in order to buy a license and tags. Buying these licenses and tags doesn’t guarantee that someone can hunt. It only affords the buyer the opportunity. The would-be hunter must then obey the laws governing the use of public lands or meet the requirements of hunting on private land not owned by them. If they own the land, it’s still not a free-for-all. There are laws that govern time of year/day, bag limit and method. Meet each of these requirements and the hunter can earn the privilege to hunt.

Individuals in Oklahoma that have committed egregious violations of the laws governing hunting (and fishing) have lost their hunting privileges FOR LIFE! So, would this be unconstitutional? Here in my state we had a vote to insert hunting and fishing into the state constitution as a right:

“Oklahoma Right to Hunt and Fish, State Question 742 was a legislatively-referred constitutional amendment. It enacted law to give all people of the state the right to hunt, trap, fish and take game and fish, subject to reasonable regulation.”

Arguments about what “reasonable regulation” even means aside, I actually voted against this. It was meant to head off anti-hunting groups and prevent organized hunter-harassment events. I felt there were other ways to prevent these things. Now there is a group of habitual poachers and general wildlife vandals that have filed suit to get their hunting privileges back on the grounds that not allowing them to kill game indiscriminately is a violation of their rights. How can that be (for lack of a better term)…right?

As I have said before: I have hunted all my life. It’s not just something I do or an intense hobby. It has informed my personality since birth through my parents and into adulthood by way of my own experiences. I can’t imagine a life without hunting. I will preserve my privilege to hunt through my voice, my pen, my wallet and the finger I use to punch the ballot button. I will ensure that privilege by continuing to earn it through following both the letter and the intent of the law.

Tsalagi, I appreciate your learned response to my earlier post. I think you and I would enjoy each other’s company around a camp fire, even if we didn’t see every issue the same way. How boring would life be if we all agreed on everything?

OkKeith
In a moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing. The worst thing you can do is nothing.
Theodore Roosevelt

Offline S.C. Hunter

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Re: Privilege or right?
« Reply #103 on: September 11, 2010, 01:47:00 AM »
For me I believe it is a right. I don't believe the people we elect to serve us should decide how we use a resource given by God. But just like anything else if they can find a way to make money they will. Alot of people believe getting married is a right but have paid for a license to do so for many years. In fact some look down on a man and woman who say they are married in gods eyes but not recognized buy the court. Do we have rights to a property that we purchase, if so why is it we must pay the govt rent to live there for the rest of our lives. Sorry to go on like this but these kinds of subjects have always been a sore spot for me. Rights are what should be the rule of the land. Privileges just take in more money and thats what we live with everyday.
USMC 82-86

Offline Tsalagi

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Re: Privilege or right?
« Reply #104 on: September 11, 2010, 02:39:00 AM »
OkKeith, I agree with much of what you say. I believe strongly in hunting ethics. If hunting wasn't regulated, we would have idiots out there doing amazingly cruel things. Just take the already cruel things poachers do and magnify it by several thousand. I tend to look at things like this: You have a right to own a gun. But commit a crime with a gun and you lose that right. Ought to be the same with a car. And the same with hunting. A right to hunt, yes, but with rights come responsibilities. Break the law, lose the right.

I disagree with:
"My feeling is that having the right to something (life, liberty, and happiness) doesn't mean I am ENTITLED to it."

My thinking is we are entitled to life. That's been a basic of the concept of compassion for quite some time now. That every human being is entitled to life. That no person has the right to take another's life without solid, justifiable reasons of self-defense. I would classify capital punishment as self-defense, for the purpose of this discussion. We once again get into a problem of defining who has a right to live if we do not assume all people are entitled to life at birth.

About this:
"If my life or liberty is threatened it seems ridiculous (to me at least) to wave my hands in the air and DEMAND someone else do something about it while I do nothing."

Ah, but that's been the basis of professional armies--and so-called civilization---since the dawn of agricultural civilization. The civilians since the Ancient Egyptians have waved their hands in the air and demanded Pharaoh, or Caesar, or the King, or the President do something about it. And they did. That's why they were paying their armies. And why the civilians, in turn, paid taxes to pay those armies. Now, take Ancient Middle Eastern armies, for example. Yes, you could call up a peasant levy to fight. But put them up against highly skilled and trained chariot crews with skilled chariot archers and you can watch your peasant levy become pincushions rather quickly. This is the entire concept of "demanding someone else do something" while you do nothing. The same applied to Soviet bombers, since the average American couldn't fly an interceptor without training. We train and pay people to become professionals to defend us, be they military, police, or firefighters. I was trained and paid to be a soldier, years ago. I wasn't drafted, the government paid me for my services. This is how an agricultural civilization works. Always has. Always will. So long as you have to defend your cropland, however you define that, you have to have professionals to do it. Or you don't hold on to it long. In short, you then plow for someone else.

  This is a very interesting discussion and very good points made. I agree, it would be great to all sit by a campfire. With some homemade jerky!
Heads Carolina, Tails California...somewhere greener...somewhere warmer...or something soon to that effect...

Offline Bonebuster

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Re: Privilege or right?
« Reply #105 on: September 12, 2010, 09:15:00 PM »
A campfire indeed!!!

Offline droptine82

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Re: Privilege or right?
« Reply #106 on: October 14, 2010, 04:32:00 PM »
It is a right. period.  That being said I feel priveledged to have the right and the ability and I thank almighty God for blessing me in this manner.
JT

Offline don s

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Re: Privilege or right?
« Reply #107 on: December 10, 2010, 01:56:00 AM »
GOD gives me the right to hunt.

Offline tso115

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Re: Privilege or right?
« Reply #108 on: August 13, 2012, 09:33:00 PM »
interesting question... i'd like to think it's a right, but perhaps a privilege as well.... could it be both?

Offline Mojostick

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Re: Privilege or right?
« Reply #109 on: August 14, 2012, 01:12:00 PM »
The ability to buy a hunting or fishing license, as with a drivers license, is a privilege for a good reason.

The reasoning for making licensing a privilege, be it for hunting, driving, running a restaurant/health codes, etc, is that if don't play by the rules, you can have the privilege/license taken away.

For example, say a drivers license was a right. If I decide I like to drive drunk all the time, taking that right away is very difficult. What if I'm a deer hunter and I don't agree with bag limits, baiting laws, jacklighting laws, etc. Hunting is a right, correct? So even if I'm repeatedly caught violating or breaking the rules, I can't really get any fine levied against me because hunting is a right, not a priviledge. Right?

Now, I do believe that if you want to put up a pen and "hunt" game however you like, then until high fences are banned, "hunting" in that pen is a right and you can decide how, when and what method is used. If in your pen you want to shoot a deer at 2am with a spotlight and a rifle in June, that is your right.

But if you want to hunt the free ranging game that belongs to all citizens of the state in which you live? Then, like driving an auto, obtaining a license is a privilege and you must play by the rules set forth for all of us or you may lose that privilege.

Think of it like voting. Contrary to belief, there is no "right to vote". Here is the SCOTUS decision on "the right to vote"...

In its 2000 ruling, Alexander v Mineta, the [U.S. Supreme] Court ... affirmed the district court's interpretation that our Constitution 'does not protect the right of all citizens to vote, but rather the right of all qualified citizens to vote.' And it's state legislatures that wield the power to decide who is 'qualified.'

So, just as with voting, making hunting a privilege allows DNR's, NRC's and legislatures to determine what behaviors can disqualify you in the privilege to buy any hunting license.

Offline Robinson H

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Re: Privilege or right?
« Reply #110 on: August 24, 2012, 02:12:00 PM »
Mojo,
I understand your argument, but I have to disagree with your premise that because an elected government creates a law that requires a qualification (acquire a hunting license) to engage in an action (hunting) that action is no longer a right, but now becomes a privilege.  

What man has understood and what our founding fathers eloquently enshrined in our Declaration and Constitution is that our Creator gave to us our lives to govern and this earth to utilize for our benefit.  My sad attempt to summarize John Locke is: because the Creator gave to all of us this earth it is only with the addition of labor that a man may turn something into his private property.  So, when I spend time in the woods, track down a deer, and (finally!) take one (I am a new hunter by the way) that deer becomes my property to feed my family.  This right to hunt was given to us before any government existed and therefore cannot be taken by any government nor made into a privilege.

So, you might ask why then do we have Departments of Fish/Game/Wildlife? Great question!  I think we can all recognize that men are not angels and therefore require some type of civil government to create and enforce basic laws to protect each individual’s right to do with his property (including himself) as he sees fit.  So, we as individuals delegate to an organization SOME authority and agree to live by the rules establish by that organization as long as those rules do not go beyond the delegated authority.  That does not mean we relinquish our rights that were given to us before any government existed.  The same logic applies to hunting.  We create departments within the States and delegate the authority to track, study, and manage our resources so that we and our future generations may hunt and enjoy them.  By creating this relationship and allowing the state to create and enforce laws that govern our behavior and are intended to preserve the ability to hunt we in no way give up our right to hunt; we only delegate the authority to determine when/where we can hunt, what methods we may use, and how many animals we may take in a day and a season to another.  As long as those laws do not infringe upon our right to hunt then they are legitimate laws.  We are then bound by our honor to abide by those laws and we agree to accept the punishment if we violate those laws.

That a result of delegating some authority leads to the creation of qualifications to hunt (hunter’s Ed and license) is the area where I believe an argument (if only theoretical) can be made that the laws may infringe upon our right to hunt.  However, just because the state requires you to show a basic knowledge of safety and basic knowledge of the law it does not mean that your right to hunt has been taken.  It is only an attempt to ensure that all hunters understand their responsibilities and limitations since the action they are about to engage in will impact not only them, but anyone else in the field with them.  Neither do the accomplishment of education and the presence of a license (hunting or automobile) negate the need for laws.  I think Calvin Coolidge was proven correct when he said ‘the world is full of educated derelicts.’  I know I have seen them!

In short: hunting is a right and it is one we each need to be active in protecting.
Cheers!
Rob

Offline Mojostick

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Re: Privilege or right?
« Reply #111 on: August 24, 2012, 05:50:00 PM »
It's not my argument or premise. It's the basis of our common law.

Offline Mojostick

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Re: Privilege or right?
« Reply #112 on: August 26, 2012, 11:29:00 AM »
Here's a good read on the subject. As hard as it is for hunters, the natural resources are for all citizens, not just hunters.

If hunting was deemed a pure "right", we'd have what we had during the market hunting years. No regulations, no laws to enforce, no licenses to raise monies, for if a right, you could hunt whatever you wanted, whenever you wanted, by whatever means and without bag limits.

We all do have the "right" to participate in some form of hunting, as long as we follow the common rules agreed upon and for a fee. Given that, hunting, in legal terms, is a privilege and not a "right", in legal terms.

If one thinks hunting is truely a right, go shoot a half dozen deer today (August) with a centerfire rifle, get arrested and plead your case in court. You'll quickly find that you didn't have the right to do what you did and that the "right" to participate in the fall deer seasons is a privilege. You'll also find that the state owns the deer and not you.
If hunting was a "pure" right, then nobody could ever keep firearms (or xbows) out of archery season. In fact, there would be no more archery only seasons if hunting were a "true right", since non-archery deer hunters would have their "rights" violated under equal protection.

Again, you have the right to participate as long as you follow the rules, just as you have the right to get a drivers license, as long as you follow the rules.

Now, if you put up a high fence and are not hunting "the peoples game", you can shoot whatever you want, with whatever you want, no bag limits and no license required. But even then, you don't necessarily have the right to put up a high fence just anywhere, anymore.

How the ‘King’s Deer’ became the ‘People’s Deer’
By Jim Posewitz

For several years residents near Loch Coille-Bharr in Scotland have debated the possible release of the largest mammal to be legally reintroduced in Britain. The project failed in 2005 as critics called it a menace and landowners vigorously opposed the project. Scottish conservationist Simon Jones describes the beast as “a relatively big animal…a large tubby squirrel with short legs and big teeth. The beast is the beaver, it has been extinct in Britain for 250 years, and conservationists are trying to bring it back, welcome to the European Model of wildlife conservation.

Most of us were born into a place and time that included an abundance of wildlife. It is difficult to imagine the landscapes we know without beaver, deer, elk, wild geese and the wily coyote. The truth is, however, the lower forty-eight states of North America were once virtually stripped of all the animals that had a market value.

In 1885 Theodore Roosevelt described the commercial carnage with a story of a northern plains cowboy who had just ridden a thousand miles, and then told TR that he “was never out of sight of a dead buffalo and never in sight of a live one.”

Our hunting heritage sat on the brink of oblivion. The buffalo, elk, bison and other animals were indeed in peril and could have passed to extinction here, just as the aurochs, boar, bear, wolf, reindeer and beaver did in Britain. Our American wildlife legacy might have ended late in the 19th Century were it not for the emergence of a new deal for wildlife—and for people. In time, that deal would be described as the North American Model of Fish and Wildlife Conservation.

Simply put, the North American Model of Fish and Wildlife Conservation (the Model) is how our society found a way to value, restore, conserve and share the wild resources of a continent. The Model is rooted in our legal system, our political system, and our cultural will.

Since none of our nation’s founding documents addressed fish and wildlife, it was left to the courts to define our relationship with the wild. In a long series of decisions dating back to 1842, fish and wildlife have been defined as public resources held in trust by the states, for all the people. In that first case, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that by virtue of the Declaration of Independence the people in our democracy were the sovereign. What that meant in short was, the king’s deer became the people’s game.

Learning to live with this new reality was difficult, and America went through a very dark time when commercial interests slaughtered wildlife for the market, and by 1885 game populations were near collapse.

In 1887, Theodore Roosevelt, George Bird Grinnell, Gifford Pinchot and others formed a club for the restoration of wildlife to America. When TR became our president he used the ‘bully pulpit’ to embed a conservation ethic in our culture, setting aside roughly 84,000 acres a day for every day he held the White House.

When wildlife restoration faltered, President Franklin D. Roosevelt called the first North American Wildlife Conference in 1936. He called upon the people to unite in the fish and wildlife conservation effort. The people responded by creating a national affiliation of sportsmen’s clubs, and within a year won landmark federal legislation to fund the recovery. Back in their communities these hunters and anglers went to work on the restoration of habitat and the protection of wildlife, while enriching the conservation ethic in the people.

By the time the 20th Century came to a close, three generations of those sovereign people had successfully restored wildlife across the country: When Theodore Roosevelt entered the White House, there were about half a million deer in the nation; today there are more than 30 million whitetails alone. In 1907 the nation’s elk population stood near 40,000, there are now at least a million. When Franklin Roosevelt called the hunters together, there may have been a million Canada geese on our continent. By 2003 the annual goose harvest was climbing toward 3 million.

This massive restoration of wildlife was probably the greatest environmental achievement in human history.

In England, where ‘the king’s deer’ passed to private property, the aurochs, boar, bear, beaver, wolf and reindeer went extinct. In America, where wildlife became the ‘people’s game’ we have deer in our suburbs, bears in our orchards and goose dung on every golf shoe in America. None of this happened by accident.

Finding our way to a conservation ethic that would work wasn’t easy, we had to hunt for it. In the process, we learned that if we were to hunt at all, we all had to conserve and share. That is how—and why—it worked.

In 2001 three wildlife biologists described the Model in a professional paper titled: Why Hunting Has Defined the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. In 2002 the International Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies endorsed the Model and its seven basic principles:

•Wildlife as Public-Trust Resources

•Elimination of Markets for Wildlife

•Allocation of Wildlife by Law

•Wildlife Can Only be Killed for a Legitimate Purpose

•Wildlife is Considered an International Resource

•Science is the Proper Tool for Discharge of Wildlife Policy

•Democracy of Hunting
It is, however, still up to the people in our democratic form of governance to embrace and protect these fundamental principles that brought wildlife to our time.

History teaches that those who would privatize and commercialize the people’s game, or dredge up an aristocracy of hunting, are not new. They were around in Theodore Roosevelt’s time and he left us some guidance. The following passages are his:

“The movement for the conservation of wildlife, and the… conservation of all our natural resources, are essentially democratic in spirit, purpose and method.”

“We do not intend that our natural resources shall be exploited by the few against the interests of the many. Our aim is to preserve our natural resource for the public as a whole, for the average man and the average woman who make up the body of the American people.”

“Above all, we should realize that the effort toward this end is essentially a democratic movement. It is… in our power… to preserve game…and to give reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the skill of the hunter, whether he is or is not a man of means.”

“There have been aristocracies which have played a great and beneficent part at stages in the growth of mankind; but we had come to the stage where for our people what was needed was a real democracy, and of all forms of tyranny the least attractive and the most vulgar is the tyranny of mere wealth, the tyranny of a plutocracy.”
For three generations, conservationists addressed habitat challenges, biological puzzles and law enforcement issues to bring the people’s game into a new century. As we entered the 21st Century, we noted with alarm that the component of our culture responsible for this wildlife renaissance, the hunter, was in decline.

How could an activity so profoundly linked to our lifestyle for a century find itself fading from our culture? Since this unique North American Model and the abundance it has restored are worth keeping, we need to examine the various social influences impacting hunter numbers.

The impact commercialized hunting is having on opportunity and recruitment has received precious little attention.

Commerce, or some form of exchange involving dead wildlife, has been a constant in our human evolution. At times our commercial companions have been fundamental to the success of fish and wildlife restoration. The best example of their positive potential remains the Pittman-Robertson and Dingell-Johnson Acts, excise taxes on hunting and fishing equipment that are returned to state wildlife agencies.

However, to see the dark side of commerce, simply check the advertisements for exclusive hunting experiences found in most sporting journals. None of these advertisements include the words: the public is welcome to share the abundance. A new plutocracy of the hunt seems to be emerging, and like the aristocracy of previous times, it is not likely to honor that democracy of the hunt principle basic to the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation.

Historian Daniel Justin Herman wrote an article titled Hunting Democracy in which he stated, “American citizens, not those who governed them, were sovereign. In the U.S., moreover, every adult … enjoyed another right that only kings and aristocrats had held in earlier centuries: the right to hunt … The right to hunt and the right to make political choices (vote) emerged simultaneously in the U.S.”

Herman went on to observe: “At one moment, hunting has operated in American culture as a rite of democracy and at the next, as a rite of aristocracy. That pendulum swing continues today.”

As that pendulum swings toward aristocracy, it knocks more hunters out of field than the anti-hunters could ever have hoped to. The problem with many forms of commercialized hunting opportunity is not that they seek some compensation for the landowner or for services provided. The problem is their own belief that they must exclude every common or aspiring hunter unable or unwilling to pay the toll.

The North American Model worked because we the people willed it, and then made it happen. Let us aspire to sustain the model and the seven principles that make it work. Perhaps it would not be unreasonable to have paying clients and free hunters hunting the same marsh, both taking time to learn and appreciate why the other is there.

Perhaps we could choose to not confront an aspiring hunter with a sign declaring hunting as private. As never before, we need to protect the two special pillars of the North American Model that made the whole process work: wildlife as a public trust and the democracy of the hunt.

In 1883, on his first trip to hunt buffalo on the vanishing American frontier, a 24-year-old Theodore Roosevelt spent several nights in Gregor Lang’s cabin on North Dakota’s Cannonball Creek. They held spirited discussions on topics important to our young nation. Gregor’s son Lincoln listened from his bunk as the men talked late into the night.

Years later Lincoln would write: “It was listening to those talks after supper in the old shack on the Cannonball that I first came to understand that the Lord made the earth for all of us and not for a chosen few.”

Now, 115 years later, that is a perspective worth hanging on to and taking to the field, forest and marsh. The future of hunting in America may depend on it.

The list of reasons for the decline may be long, with some being obvious and others simply superficial distractions. For example, much has been said about the many influences competing for the attention of our youth. This issue is among the obvious and many hunting organizations have launched excellent youth programs. These programs are necessary, and we all need to pitch in and help make them work.

Since the word superficial was used to define the other end of the spectrum, let me suggest that anti-hunting groups and their campaigns occupy more of our time and attention than they deserve. They have been around for a century, and while they raise a lot of money and live well, they have not damaged hunting. Hunting is still clearly okay with most Americans. Even those aspiring to be our nation’s president continue to create photo-ops with dog and gun.

Offline Buckeye Trad Hunter

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Re: Privilege or right?
« Reply #113 on: September 13, 2012, 10:06:00 PM »
I agree with Mojo, the fact that you must qualify for and then repeatedly purchase a license and game specific tags in itself make hunting a privilege.  As he also said, add in the fact that there are season dates and bag limits, that even more so makes it a privilege according to the law.  If hunting were a right, anyone could hunt with no tags or license at anytime for any animal.

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